Get Them Off Welfare

[bonnie]

You probably don't want to repeat that story too much as it makes you and your husband look kind of bad. You say that you and your husband ran a successful painting business but one of your sons worked his way through college without the help from anyone. I don't want to be judgmental but that story really doesn't cast you and your husband in a very favorable light.

This would be almost funny if it weren't so pathetic.

Quite the contrary. Yes,my husband was successful. We put the boys thru boarding academy. Three at one time.Very costly.

With three that would have been in college at one time he was no longer able to put the hours in he previously had. He also began having strokes at a young age and for some silly reason our sons thought enough of their dad they preferred to keep him around as long as possible.

Regardless whether we were lousy parents in your estmation or not,you still haven't explained how my son and others could do it but you couldn't.I think you had the same 24 hours a day he did

[Dr. Shane]

Explain to me then how my son and many like him have done it.

Was he from a two-parent family? Did his dad let him work for the family business during the summers?

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Explain to me then how my son and many like him have done it.

Was he from a two-parent family? Did his dad let him work for the family business during the summers?

Yes I am sure you know he was from a two parent family. He is the one son that did not work for his dad during summers. He began sanding drywall when he was thirteen.After high school he didn't think his boss went after business aggressively enough so he went on his own.

My brother began working at fourteen.Picking apples,digging potatos and then when old enough construction.

Hard work and long,long hours as did my other brothers and myself.Seemed the way to have more than we had.

I have mentioned a couple of the neighbors.Young women that both have little girls and are not married.

One is morbidly obese for the second time.Taxpayers have already paid for the first surgery and they are saying no thanks for the second. She thought babies were so cute,especially "those mixed race babies".She went "shopping"for the right color. Her mother has a successful house cleaning business.She charges 20.00 per hour.She wants to quit and tried to turn it over to her daughter so she could get off welfare.Her daughter is going to wait for a receptionist job or something like that to come along.Her father is in the home.While he doesn't seem to be a ball of fire it is a intact family

The other is holding down three part time jobs,totally self supporting,father not in the picture.Two of her jobs she can bring her little one.After the baby is in bed she does her college online.One class at a time.Paid for by her.She qualifies for almost free education.She has said no thanks as she grew up on welfare and wants nothing to do with it.Her father was in and out as the mood struck him,usually drunk.

Other than making sure neither was hungry or sleeping under a bridge the one doing it on her own would get whatever help I could give her.I would not help the other with the exception of basics as she waited for something better to come along.

Would she choose prostitution if welfare were not available? Probably

[Dr. Shane]

Yes I am sure you know he was from a two parent family.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Yes I am sure you know he was from a two parent family.

There is a big key right there. Plus his dad was a small businessman. Lots of kids don't have that. Ambition is not enough. Kids need direction too. When I was a kid I had lots of ambition. It took me 10 years to get my college degree. I had no guidance.

Originally Posted By: bonnie

She thought babies were so cute,especially "those mixed race babies". She went "shopping"for the right color.

What does the race of a person's children have to do with public assistance programs? My children are mixed race. I have no idea how those comments belong in this conversation.

My grandchildren are a mixed race as well.

What it has to do with this is the complete irresponsibility and thoughtlessness of this girl deciding to bring a child into this world based on how cute she thought bi-racial children were.Nor has she become anymore responsible.This child is headed for a world of hurt.You can't have the child in your home unless you can physically restrain her.She is only four.While it is much easier than in the past for a mixed race child,this mother does not have the maturity or caring to nurture her thru any issues she may face.

You do not pick the father of your child on the color of the fathers skin like you would a puppy

[bonnie]

The last couple of generations haven't a clue. No doubt fathers are necessary in the home.But the last couple of generations are hardly unique in hardship.

I did a lot of family genealogy research. What past generations have dealt with makes current generations sound like a bunch of crybabies.

The life of former slaves after "freedom" is a testament to the people they were. They did not want a hand out or a government check.They wanted to care for their families.

You don't read of mass drug use,a bunch of drunks.Shooting or knifing each other. They simply wanted to be treated as human beings.Didn't happen for a long time but they did not sit down and say take care of me.

The Jewish children that managed to survive the concentration camps.Many saw their mothers raped and both parents tortured and sent to the ovens. After the war these children should have been some of the most vicious,worthless on earth. They didn't have either mother or father. Again they didn't. They were productive citizens that succeeded with every reason not to.

Many do need direction and a hand up. They should not anticipate raising families on welfare without a sincere effort to care for their own.It is hard but can be done

[Dr. Shane]

What it has to do with this is the complete irresponsibility and thoughtlessness of this girl deciding to bring a child into this world based on how cute she thought bi-racial children were... You do not pick the father of your child on the color of the fathers skin like you would a puppy

I still don't see the connection regarding mixed race children and public assistance. It is true that mixed race children tend to be more physically attractive. It is not unheard of for people to choose to marry someone of another race for that reason - although it may be a bit shallow. Many such people are not on public assistance.

I choose my wife because we were the same faith. I had a white, non-Adventist girlfriend at the time but felt conflicted about getting serious with her. So I didn't choose my wife because our babies would be cute but that certainly was something I thought about at the time.

Again, I see no connection between mixed race babies and public assistance.

[Dr. Shane]

The life of former slaves after "freedom" is a testament to the people they were. They did not want a hand out or a government check.

The Jewish children that managed to survive the concentration camps... They were productive citizens that succeeded with every reason not to.

Both those groups dealt with a lot of emotional scars. I haven't seen any studies done on these groups but I suspect that many never really recovered from the emotional harm done to them.

[Dr. Shane]

A couple of bi-racial children that have never been on public assistance.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

What it has to do with this is the complete irresponsibility and thoughtlessness of this girl deciding to bring a child into this world based on how cute she thought bi-racial children were... You do not pick the father of your child on the color of the fathers skin like you would a puppy

I still don't see the connection regarding mixed race children and public assistance. It is true that mixed race children tend to be more physically attractive. It is not unheard of for people to choose to marry someone of another race for that reason - although it may be a bit shallow. Many such people are not on public assistance.

I choose my wife because we were the same faith. I had a white, non-Adventist girlfriend at the time but felt conflicted about getting serious with her. So I didn't choose my wife because our babies would be cute but that certainly was something I thought about at the time.

Again, I see no connection between mixed race babies and public assistance.

Her total irresponsility and callousness that she went out color shopping to have a baby she didn't plan on supporting herself.She couldn't care less if the child will have issues to deal with because of her color shopping along with her complete ignoring of just this childs basic needs.Is she on welfare because she has a bi-racial child? Only from the standpoint that having this child by color selection was a deliberate choice,knowing she would be raising her on welfare without a father.Do I think a minority race is more likely to be on welfare? No

I am glad my sons did not choose their mates with the thought of cute bi-racial babies in the background. Unless the topic comes up I don't ever think of the color of their skin.

[Dr. Shane]

she went out color shopping to have a baby she didn't plan on supporting herself.

There are people that go "color shopping" that have financial means to support their children. "Color shopping" has nothing to do with public assistance. Furthermore, "color shopping" is in no way immoral. Many people choose their mates based on physical features like height, weight, eye color, hair color, body curves, etc. Skin color is just one more physical attribute. Choosing to have babies with someone of another race is no more connected to public assistance than choosing to have babies with a blond-hair person.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

One of our sons... Paid every dime of his education without help from anyone.

You probably don't want to repeat that story too much as it makes you and your husband look kind of bad. You say that you and your husband ran a successful painting business but one of your sons worked his way through college without the help from anyone. I don't want to be judgmental but that story really doesn't cast you and your husband in a very favorable light.

Big dis-agreement, Shane.

There are many types of education and some of them close more doors than they open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h_pp8CHEQ0

`oG

[Dr. Shane]

I think you have allowed Bonnie to mis-characterize my position.

I do not believe a college education makes an individual more valuable to society.

I started out college to become a shop teacher and later switched to Construction Management.

Society needs all types of people. We need mechanics, landscapers, truck drivers, window washers, cooks, farm laborers, factory workers and so on. Just as the apostle Paul explains that each member of the body is needed, so it is with society. We need bankers and we need merchants. We need construction workers and we need park rangers. I don't see one job as being more admirable than another. It is not a job that brings honor to a man but it is the man that brings honor to the job.

Who among us would take our refrigerator to an auto mechanic to get it fixed?

Who among us would go to the dry cleaners to get a hair cut?

There is nothing wrong with being an auto mechanic but I am not going to take my refrigerator to one. There is nothing wrong with being a dry cleaner but I am not going to let one cut my hair.

Now do you see where I am going? The three "big" talking heads on the radio are all college dropouts. Listening to them talk politics is like dropping into any local tavern and listing to the boys shoot the breeze. Who is Rush Limbaugh? He is a disc jockey. Who is Sean Hannity? He is a former construction worker. These guys do not have the background to qualify them as political commentators.

Compare the back ground of those talking heads to the likes of Bill O'Reilly or George Will. George Will has a PhD from Princeton and a Pulitzer Prize. Bill O'Reilly holds two Masters, one from Harvard. William F. Buckley Jr. graduated from Yale where he studied political science, history and economics. The talking-heads from talk radio just don't have those qualifications.

If I was going to throw a party and needed some great music, I am sure Rush Limbaugh has all the qualifications of a disc jockey to spin some discs but I am not going to take him seriously when he starts talking about politics. I'll "listen" to him just like I'll listen to the gents down at the local 12-step group shoot the breeze but that's it. A dry cleaner isn't going to cut my hair and a disc jockey isn't going to tell me who to vote for.

[bonnie]

There are people that go "color shopping" that have financial means to support their children. "Color shopping" has nothing to do with public assistance. Furthermore, "color shopping" is in no way immoral. Many people choose their mates based on physical features like height, weight, eye color, hair color, body curves, etc. Skin color is just one more physical attribute. Choosing to have babies with someone of another race is no more connected to public assistance than choosing to have babies with a blond-hair person.

When you have the means to take care of yourself and any children you bring into the world,your decisions,even bad ones are something you can do.

Obviously you think this is fine and understandable way to bring a helpless child into the world.Perhaps because I do not have a college degree I see something very wrong with what this young woman is doing.

When you are without a job,have no intention of getting one,make a decision to have a baby because "they are so cute"

and then go to parties till you find the right color sperm donor ,you should not be supported by taxpayers.Something is very cruel and callous about a woman that would do this.

This is a neglected child.Her issues will be numerous as she grows up and one may be the color of her skin. Thankfully it is not the stigma it once was,but this mother could not care less about issues that she may face.

That is not aassumption.Her mother has tried to talk with her.She simply says she will have to deal with it,it will make her tough.That is where this childs race comes into it.You want to imply something racist on my part fine.The girl got pregnant within a month of her mother telling her she had to get a job and start paying rent within 60 days.

This child was brought into the world to provide her mother with a paycheck with what may be the added burden of not really belonging anywhere.

If education means this is acceptable because you claim people with financial means do same,I am glad that I do not have your education

[bonnie]

Her case worker does not believe she is fit to raise this child

but can do nothing. She has even denied the child the right to know who her father is. She simply says she doesn't know which

one at the party got her pregnant and doesn't know where any of them are.

The caseworker has backed the parents to refuse any type of help whatsoever,except to feed the child if necessary and keep her sheltered.

The caseworker also has a college degree and has told the mother many nights she goes home in tears because this behaviour is not infrequent.She deals with mothers like this everyday and her hands are tied.

Maybe she should have consulted with you to see what to think

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

The life of former slaves after "freedom" is a testament to the people they were. They did not want a hand out or a government check.

The Jewish children that managed to survive the concentration camps... They were productive citizens that succeeded with every reason not to.

Both those groups dealt with a lot of emotional scars. I haven't seen any studies done on these groups but I suspect that many never really recovered from the emotional harm done to them.

I am sure they did. They did not let that paralyze them emotionally and sit down and demand others care for them. They succeeded in spite off.Maybe their success was not notable,maybe only surviving and never giving up. But you don't hear of the them demanding someone care for them because they had it tough.

[Dr. Shane]

Obviously you think this is fine and understandable way to bring a helpless child into the world.

[bonnie]

No. I am completely against unwed pregnancies. That is not part of God's plan. Still, race has nothing to do with that discussion.

[Dr. Shane]

Ever hear a small child that is Mexican-White called a "Dirty little spic" and see him pushed to the ground. I have,which again makes your assurances immaterial. The child didn't even know what that was,he just knew someone hated him.

Reminds me of a time that a kid a church told me I didn't need a spic for a girlfriend. I was dating a Mexican Adventist girl at the time. When I told her that she tilted her head a bit and curiously asked, "What's a spic?"

It's all good. Hateful people will do hateful things. Kids called me names and pushed me to the ground when I was a kid and both of my parents are white. Race has nothing to do with that. That is just people being mean. We have a bi-racial President. Some of the most successful entertainers are bi-racial. There is no longer a stigma on kids being bi-racial.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Ever hear a small child that is Mexican-White called a "Dirty little spic" and see him pushed to the ground. I have,which again makes your assurances immaterial. The child didn't even know what that was,he just knew someone hated him.

Reminds me of a time that a kid a church told me I didn't need a spic for a girlfriend. I was dating a Mexican Adventist girl at the time. When I told her that she tilted her head a bit and curiously asked, "What's a spic?"

It's all good. Hateful people will do hateful things. Kids called me names and pushed me to the ground when I was a kid and both of my parents are white. Race has nothing to do with that. That is just people being mean. We have a bi-racial President. Some of the most successful entertainers are bi-racial. There is no longer a stigma on kids being bi-racial.

Excuse me if I don't believe you.The child was five years old,not your girlfriend.All kids at one time or anotherare teased..Never pleasent,but when children are picked on for the color of their skin it has a different effect than being picked on for funny shoes.I have never said there should not be any bi-racial children,absolutely nothing wrong with that.I would not trade my mexican DILs or my grandchildren for anything.Never did have a problem with that.

I took care of a little bi-racial girl for several years. Her dad was white and her mother black. When she started pre-school a couple of days a week,she changed dramatically.She begged to stay with me when her mom came to pick her up.When I asked her why she said "because you are white" Didn't make sense until she began screaming at her mother that she hated her for what she did.Her mother finally told me that was because Shannon was mad at her for not "making her all one color"

I don't think she would believe you that it could not be an issue today.Compound that with a mother that couldn't care less

and doesn't support the child and help her it hurts that child.Particularly when her mother created that issue for the child with so much callousness.

I don't think our little neighbor girl would agree with you either. Her mother creates the problem then says "tough"

She is four years old and a driver the other day was heard to call her a "little black b#@&*.Mom was sitting in the yard smoking a cigarette while the little girl played in the street on her trike.Would not move,stayed in the middle of the road and laughed.The driver got out and was going to move her.She started screaming and the mother gave the driver the finger.I can not imagine doing that to a child,but that mother created this behaviour.So excuse me if my sympathies are with the child and I don't treat this little girl and the problems she is facing as a joke.It is not all good

Does the mother do this because the child is bi-racial.Of course not.But this little girl will be slapped often using the color of her skin.To this little girl,she was not yelled at and called a name because she was naughty,it was because of the color of her skin

[Dr. Shane]

The issue isn't that the children are bi-racial. My children are bi-racial. Kids with issues normally can trace them to the parents not being good parents. Dr. Dobson wrote a book entitled "Parenting Isn't For Cowards". Too many parents take their job as parents too lightly. Kids are going to get picked on for a variety of reasons. Their ears are too big, their shoes aren't the right brand, they speak with an accent, etc. If they are in a loving home and part of a loving church, the kids are going to be able to deal with such criticisms without lasting emotional scars. Kids getting picked on because of their race has absolutely nothing to do with public assistance.

[bonnie]

The issue isn't that the children are bi-racial. My children are bi-racial. Kids with issues normally can trace them to the parents not being good parents. Dr. Dobson wrote a book entitled "Parenting Isn't For Cowards". Too many parents take their job as parents too lightly. Kids are going to get picked on for a variety of reasons. Their ears are too big, their shoes aren't the right brand, they speak with an accent, etc. If they are in a loving home and part of a loving church, the kids are going to be able to deal with such criticisms without lasting emotional scars. Kids getting picked on because of their race has absolutely nothing to do with public assistance.

Never said it did.Race is part of what is happening to this little girl.This little bi-racial baby is here today because of public assistence.She is a deliberate product of a woman that was going to be forced to work.It was work and pay rent or get pregnant and go on welfare.Add to the mix race that she not only does not know how to deal with,she flat out admits she doesn't care.

The childs race is going to be a factor to her, even if you say it isn't.She knows only one reason why people get angry with her. Putting it politely it is because she is black.

I will be sure to share with her that "this is really good for her",as much fun as a pillow fight

One more time which is probably pointless.Being bi-racial doesn't mean public assistance. Now I know you will continue to try to make it so.Repeat it often enough and even you may believe what you are spouting.

The pictures of your children as proof of bi-racial children not on public assitance is rather juvenile in this as there was not the slightest implication that they or all other bi-racial children are

[Dr. Shane]

This little bi-racial baby is here today because of public assistence.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

This little bi-racial baby is here today because of public assistence.

The baby may have been conceived because there was public assistance available but that has nothing to do with the baby being bi-raical.

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Add to the mix race...

That has nothing to do with the situation.

Again,hope you understand that I will give more credibility to those that are far more expert in the field of public assistance than I do you. Rest assurred they have gone to college and as startling as it is they disagree with you.

During the years we cared for foster children our caseworker

would not have allowed you to care for bi-racial children with your cavalier attitude towards problems they could face.

We had to go thru some pretty careful additional screening and

question and answer process. If we had said "all is good" we would have been bounced out of the process.

She knew beyond a doubt when you have a already questionable situation adding racial problems for the children was like pouring gas on a fire.

Caseworker of this little girl has told the grandmother the same thing.The problems are numerous and adding racial negatives is going to fall on this little girl.

Friends of ours have two daughters that are social workers and guess what,they must not know anything either.They say the same.When they are dealing with problem children what can be the frosting on the cake are racial issues if the child is bi-racial or minority race

[Dr. Shane]

our caseworker would not have allowed you to care for bi-racial children with your cavalier attitude towards problems they could face.

I am the father of bi-racial children. We have not had any racial issues at all. We now live in a different era. The President of the United States of America is bi-racial. The majority of Americans voted for him.