Christianity and Israel

[Windsor]

Ron,

Who are the chosen people? The descendents of Abraham which would include the Arabs? Just the descendents of Isaac? Do we include the Edomites? Or perhaps it's just the descendents of Jacob? The Jews of today are mainly from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi. What of all the others? Some say they went to Europe. Would help explain why the land of milk and honey today is made up of Europe and the lands the Europeans colonized. Certainly the entirety of Jacobs descendents are not the 15 million Jews worldwide. Adventists already outnumber those who today consider themselves of Jewish heritage. So who would you limit God's foremost blessings to today?

[Aliensanctuary]

If we disbelieve the OT prophets' predictions concerning future Israel and instead substitute "Christians" or "SDA's" or "fill in the blank" we may be making these prophets out to be liars. According to Rev, some of the descendents of Jacob will have a destiny that no one else can experience. This remnant of Israel will play a part in introducing mankind to the LORD.

If we disbelieve the word of the LORD, we may set ourselves up for some unpleasant surprises. Although I believe we should support today's nation of Israel, after it is destroyed once again for its unbelief and disloyalty to the LORD, the true Israel will arise from the exiles, a mere remnant, rebuild the ruined cities, and reign over the world in peace for the millennium, all accomplished with the help of YHVH.

Again, substituting "X, Y, or Z" for Israel in OT prophecies will mislead us and cause us great distress when we see our special theories crumble into ashes. For "X, Y, or Z" to fancy themselves as the remnant mentioned in Rev. is a real scripture-twister unless they are indeed descendents of Jacob.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

34 AD, the the Israelites were done, the gospel went to all the world. Spiritual Jews, of which I am one. The Nation of Israel is no more special than Africa today in terms of Gods remanant people.

The Bible doesn't say that.

These are your false assumptions based on your parochial views as an SDA.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Considering that the above concept (minus the exact date)was an integral part of church theology for over 1800 years before the beginning of the SDA movement, one has to wonder why you would make such a statement? [/quote']

Simple it is not Biblical. The Bible does not support this.

[miz3]

Well spoken Doug.

In reading Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers by Dr. LeRoy Froom, there were numerous Protestant expositors in the 15th, 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries who placed the 70 weeks between 457/458 B.C. to 33/34 A.D. All of them were unanimous that the end of the 70 weeks was the last chance for Israel as a nation.

Miz3 loves to try and make all of this "SDA theology", when really, it is sound orthodox Protestant theology that pre-dated Adventism.

It does not matter who advocates it, it is still not Biblical or supported by the Bible.

[skyblue888]

"And if you are Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs (of God) according to the promise." Galatians 3:24.

What is it in that clear and simple passage of Scripture that some fail to grasp?

The nation of Israel has never accepted Christ as the Messiah.

sky

[olger]

AMEN

[Ron Amnsn]

"Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophesy, and to annoint the Most Holy.Know therefore and understand,that from the going forth of the command..."

doug yowell

______________

Exactly, the Jews did not know the time of their visitation and as a people they were set aside.

Sky, where does Scripture say that the Jews as a people were set aside?

It doesn't say that in Daniel 9:24-27. It doesn't even say that the 490 years were probationary for Israel. In verse 25 it says that Messiah the prince is coming. The list of things in verse 24 are things that Messiah would accomplish on behalf of Israel. Jesus was, after all, the hereditary King of the Jews of the seed of David. All the things that Jesus did were done as a legitimate leader of Israel and would have fulfilled the conditions of the prophecy for Israel, if it had actually been a probationary period for Israel (which it was not).

If verse 24 actually did contain a list of probationary goals that the Israelites must accomplish within the 70 weeks or else be set aside as a people, what would each of those things have looked like in real life when Israel had accomplished it? (I have asked this before on this forum, but have never received an answer.)

[doug yowell]

The Bible doesn't say that.

These are your false assumptions based on your parochial views as an SDA.

Simple it is not Biblical. The Bible does not support this.

I was responding to your false charge of this "unbiblical view" of Church/Israel as having originated out of SDA beliefs. Whether it is unBiblical or not is presently under discussion.

[doug yowell]

If verse 24 actually did contain a list of probationary goals that the Israelites must accomplish within the 70 weeks or else be set aside as a people, what would each of those things have looked like in real life when Israel had accomplished it? (I have asked this before on this forum, but have never received an answer.)

Maybe because the question is a non sequitur and should be self evident from the list of goals provided. Nothing about the "for Your People to..." instructions of Dan.9:24 can be said to have been accomplished. You haven't even tried to show their fulfillment (for obvious reasons).Are you saying that these requirements are simply prophetic smoke, meaningless to anyone who listens? God's Word is not difficult to grasp here "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city..." or else what??? Nothing? The overwhelming majority of Jews rejected the claims of Jesus when He came and after His disciples continued His call to repentence. Paul in Romans 11 explains that the Jews, who,in fact, believed and accepted Jesus as Christ, were counted as the remnant thru which God's promises to Israel were fulfilled."The elect, the rest were blinded". Again Paul describes this spiritual state as being fulfilled in the believing Gentiles as well(Eph.2:11-22). This spiritual bond is defined as "the church" and also "the Israel of God" (Gal.6:16)and also as "a Jew who is one inwardly...in the Spirit...NOT in the letter"(Rom.2:25-29).

[Ron Amnsn]

Jesus is very clear that the Jewish nation are the "husbandmen" (or vinedressers). Yet Jesus is also clear that that "vineyard" (which Isaiah declares the "House of Israel") would be let out "to OTHER VINEDRESSERS (or husbandmen)".

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

If I understand correctly, your article says that the "church" is currently caretaker of the vineyard of Israel. But it doesn't explain what that looks like in real life. What is the "vineyard" that they are caring for. What does it look like? How is that "vineyard" different from the church? What duties do the people in the church do to actually care for this "vineyard" that is Israel? Do the actual descendants of Jacob feel cared for by the activities that the church does to care for the "vineyard"?

Let's flip your questions around, Ron, and ask them of literal Israel. Let's add a couple of more clarifying questions like:1) Who is identified as literal Israel? How do we know that they are truely the literal Israel to whom God made those unconditional covenants? Which group does the believing Jew belong to, Israel, or the church? Does a "spiritual Israel" exist?

[Ron Amnsn]

This statement and it's following questions seem to highlight the problem you are having with the idea of the Spiritual Israel. Seems like you're having a hard time understanding what the gospel is to begin with. Does the OT teach that the gospel is all about the Jews??

[doug yowell]

The ideas your theology here puts forth are in essence no different than the theology that kept the Jew's from accepting Christ when He first came. Do you have anything to substantiate this assertion? I know of many Jews who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah and share virtually all of the ideas I have explained here. In fact it was from Jewish followers of Jesus that I first learned the importance of testing the traditions that have been handed down from the Roman church. Once you clear away the man-made doctrines, the New Testament agrees completely with the Old Testament.

Sorry, I just realized that I used the wrong wording in my above qestion. It should have read "... that kept the Jews from accepting the Gentiles as their equals without conforming to the Jewish customs."

[doug yowell]

The kingdom has not been replaced. But given. Only the operators of the kingdom have been replaced. Jesus says the nation that is given the kingdom of God is a nation that is bringing forth the fruits of the kingdom of God. That rules out the "Church" for it's entire existence, except perhaps during the lifetime of the 12 apostles when the followers of Jesus were a sect within Judaism, not separated from the literal Israelites.

It also rules the literal nation of Israel for it's entire existence if you're using that criterion. How has the Jewish nation evangelized anyone in the past 2000 years to accept Jesus as the Messiah and to keep His Law? How have they not been worse than the church in doing God's bidding?

[Ron Amnsn]

First off, I'll just start out by telling you what the vineyard looks like. The vineyard represent all those tender plants that are joined to the tree, which is Jesus Christ. All those who have repented and confessed Christ and turned away from sin constitute God's tender plants. But their source of life is from the fountain of living water, Jesus Christ. Those of use who God calls to ministry must nurture these plants, whether they be Jews or Gentiles.

[Ron Amnsn]

God does not break His covenant, but we can break ourselves from that binding agreement if we so choose. But we will pay the consequences, as God is not at fault here, but we are.

Israel failed to carry the gospel commission to the world. Had they done so, ALL those nations that accepted Jehovah would have been included in the covenant, and become a "part" of the House of Israel. And Isaiah 56 is very clear that such gentiles, or strangers, would take hold of the covenant and keep the Sabbath, and their sacrifices and offerings (which can be applied spiritually as well) would be accepted.

When was the "gospel commission" given to Israel? I think it was not until the end of Jesus' ministry. If Israel failed at that, then so did "the church".

You are correct that Gentiles who accept the gospel become part of Israel, along with the descendants of Jacob.

[Ron Amnsn]

Hard to argue with that. But ya gotta admit that the church started out like gangbusters,even with the literal Israel doing everything it could to stop them (Rev. 12).

Doug, when are you going to stop lumping all of literal Israel into the same group? The apostles were Jews. Jesus was a Jew. The congregation of believers at Jerusalem was made up of tens of thousands of Jews. These were all part of literal Israel.

Yes, there were some Jews that opposed what the apostles were doing to spread the good news that Messiah had come. But the vast majority of literal Israel were not opposed -- they were ignorant of what was going on. How could a Jewish family in exile in Persia, or a Jewish synagogue in Spain, or any of the multitude of Jews and Israelites that were scattered among the nations at that time be accused of doing anything to stop the apostles?

[Lysimachus]

Ron, you are really wasting my time, no disrespect. I can already see that you are like a stubborn steam-rolling bulldozer that refuses to see what we are presenting to you, it is disheartening. Very disheartening dealing with your type. You are not discerning spiritual things because you looking at everything from very warped goggles that separates God's people into divisions and does not see them as one unified whole. You refuse to ascertain conditions to covenants, and that while God does not break a covenant, people are at liberty to break their covenant with God. God keeps covenants only with people who choose to follow Him and continue following Him. You have ignored this conditional element. Your ideas are akin to Calvinistic Predestination.

I'll try to deal with you later, but it is people like you why it makes it very difficult for me to get any other important work done. I'm going to make one last post after the above, and if you respond again, do not expect me to keep responding. That will be your last chance. We've labored with you enough, and it appears you want to keep defending yourself and not submit to the unanimous counsel of the brethren. You continue to stubbornly say we are reading into texts and that the rest of passages do not support our assertions. This is the figment of your imagination. The texts and contexts of the passages are plain and simple, but it is you who is the problem. Not the texts. You just refuse to see that is what it is saying, because you do not want to see it.

[Ron Amnsn]

Most of what modern day Jews believe (the few religious ones left)about God,the identity and work of the Messiah, the authority of the OT, and Israel's place in the world is a result of the teachings of their own religious leaders over the past 20 centuries.The rabbi's merely continue with most of the misrepresentations of the OT writings that has begun long before Jesus lifetime. Ask an informed religious Jew today why they reject the Messianic claims of Christ and you will get pretty much the same answer,"He doesn't fit the Biblical model of the Saviour of Israel." They're still stuck in the mindset that required the Messiah to set up the nation of Israel as the top dog of this world much like David and Solomon did. They see the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 as being the nation of Israel itself. Can't blame that on Christianity!!

Part of what you say is true.

Christianity is responsible for presenting Christ, not as a righteous Jew who followed the Law of Moses and encouraged others to do the same, but as one who set aside God's law.

Sure, the Jews have their non-scriptural traditions, but so do Christians. If wrong beliefs about the Messiah disqualify the Jews, then most of Christianity would also be disqualified by wrong beliefs about the Messiah.

Even the SDA church teaches that the Messiah will conquer the world at the second and third comings, so the Jews aren't far wrong in that. It sounds like you object to the Jewish nature of kingdom that Messiah will set up. You believe that kingdom will have an SDA flavor, while Jews believe the prophecies of the Old Testament.

[Ron Amnsn]

It is neither the name of the Messiah nor the concept of a Messiah that is sufficient to save anyone.It is the work of the Messiah that requires saving faith. (...for He shall save His people from their sins.")" The Man from Nazareth who claimed to be God is the only true test of faith.

Can you prove that from the Scriptures?

Can you prove that from the Old Testament Scriptures?

Jesus said about the Old Testament, "it is these that testify about Me." (John 5:39)

If any Israelites were saved before the birth of Jesus, what prevents those living after the birth of Jesus from being saved in that same manner, even if they don't know the name of Messiah?

[doug yowell]

Even the SDA church teaches that the Messiah will conquer the world at the second and third comings, so the Jews aren't far wrong in that.

That's not exactly what the SDA church teaches.But they do teach that Jesus was the suffering servant of Is.53.The Messiah needed to suffer before He could enter His glory.The Jews today don't believe in multiple comings do they? Didn't Abraham believe that he would inherit the entire world? The Jewish Messiah has already come. The Son of David,the promise to Abraham,the promise to Adam and Eve(pre-Jewish)."If they do not believe Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe one though he rose from the dead."

[Ron Amnsn]

34 AD, the the Israelites were done, the gospel went to all the world. Spiritual Jews, of which I am one. The Nation of Israel is no more special than Africa today in terms of Gods remanant people.

Where is the Scriptural evidence to support this man-made doctrine?

The New Testament doesn't even tell us what year Stephen was stoned.

The Old Testament prophets foretold that people would say what you are saying about the nation of Israel:

And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, "Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, 'The two families which the LORD chose, He has rejected them'? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight.

"Thus says the LORD, 'If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.'" (Jeremiah 33:23-26)

The covenant for day and night comes from God's promise to himself after the flood in the days of Noah:

"While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, And cold and heat, And summer and winter, And day and night Shall not cease." (Gen 8:22)

The earth remains and the fixed patterns of day and night continue, so we know that God has not rejected the descendants of Jacob. They may be presently suffering some of the consequences of violating their covenant with God, but even that is evidence that the covenant is still valid.

[doug yowell]

You believe that kingdom will have an SDA flavor, while Jews believe the prophecies of the Old Testament.

Is this an as opposed to type of statement? If the Jews believe the prophesies of the OT than they'll also believe that the kingdom will have a SDA flavor, after all we have much in common.What do you think are the major differences between how SDA's believe the OT and how the Jews believe it?

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

I don't think you and I get to decide who from among the descendants of Jacob get cut off for unbelief. God is the one who does the pruning. He knows which individuals are cut off and which ones aren't.

And why can't we know? Apparently Paul knew. Deciding and knowing are not the same thing.If unbelief is the only requisite for being removed from the olive tree and Paul clearly says that both Jews and Gentiles will be cut off the tree if they don't "continue in His goodness" then what's the big mystery? Has their public decision to not follow Christ now become some sort of spriritual secret? And if both (believing) Gentiles and Jews are a part of this natural olive tree then what advantage can the circumcised Jew claim over the uncircumcised Gentile?

What gives you the idea that Paul knew which individuals were cut off? Knowing that some are cut off as described in the Law of Moses, is different than knowing which ones are cut off.

Paul does mention unbelief as one cause of being cut off from the Olive Tree. He doesn't specify what the object of that unbelief is. I think you might define it as unbelief in Jesus as described in the doctrines of the SDA church. Paul might define it as unbelief in the Messiah, or unbelief in the Old Testament scriptures, or some other way.

The benefit that some Jews have is that their position is inherited from their natural parents. Some of us inherited citizenship in our parent's home country even though we ourselves may not have been born there. Our parents had the right of citizenship and were able to pass that on to us. In a similar way, the natural descendants of Jacob pass on to their offspring a place in God's covenants.

Gentiles are also offered a place in the covenant, but they need to be grafted-in to the people who were given the covenant, it isn't something they inherit from their natural parents.

Gentile believers tend to trace their spiritual inheritance back through the Protestant Reformation to the Catholic Church, early church "fathers", the apostles and Christ. Jewish believers tend to trace their spiritual inheritance through Messiah and the Jewish congregations started by the apostles to Israel, Moses, and the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.