Christianity and Israel

[Ron Amnsn]

Who are the chosen people? The descendents of Abraham which would include the Arabs? Just the descendents of Isaac? Do we include the Edomites? Or perhaps it's just the descendents of Jacob? The Jews of today are mainly from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi. What of all the others? Some say they went to Europe. Would help explain why the land of milk and honey today is made up of Europe and the lands the Europeans colonized. Certainly the entirety of Jacobs descendents are not the 15 million Jews worldwide. Adventists already outnumber those who today consider themselves of Jewish heritage. So who would you limit God's foremost blessings to today?

In Romans 9:6-15 Paul makes it clear that it is the descendants of Jacob who have inherited the covenant of Abraham. This is confirmed in the Old Testament by seeing who it was to whom God gave the Land promised to Abraham. That doesn't mean that all others are excluded -- it just means that they didn't inherit it from their natural parents.

God knows who all the descendants of Jacob are. There is evidence that some of the tribes went into Europe. Although many of them would probably be considered "cut-off" under the terms of the Covenant with Israel, they are certainly able to be grafted in again to their own olive tree, and many of them have accepted Jesus.

I don't believe that Europe is the same as the land flowing with milk and honey as described in the Old Testament.

Adventists too are grafted-in to the olive tree of Israel, not because they are Adventists, but because of their faith in Jesus and faithfulness to Him who is heir of Abraham.

Christians are heirs along with Israel, not instead of Israel.

[doug yowell]

What gives you the idea that Paul knew which individuals were cut off? Knowing that some are cut off as described in the Law of Moses, is different than knowing which ones are cut off.

How bout just 3 or 4 for the sake of brevity and my slow nature? Romans 11:7 Acts 13:46 28:17-29 I Thes.2:14-16 Gal.4:21-31 OK I'm tired now. Was that 3 or 4?

[Ron Amnsn]

"And if you are Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs (of God) according to the promise." Galatians 3:24.

What is it in that clear and simple passage of Scripture that some fail to grasp?

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

If verse 24 actually did contain a list of probationary goals that the Israelites must accomplish within the 70 weeks or else be set aside as a people, what would each of those things have looked like in real life when Israel had accomplished it? (I have asked this before on this forum, but have never received an answer.)

Maybe because the question is a non sequitur and should be self evident from the list of goals provided. Nothing about the "for Your People to..." instructions of Dan.9:24 can be said to have been accomplished. You haven't even tried to show their fulfillment (for obvious reasons).Are you saying that these requirements are simply prophetic smoke, meaningless to anyone who listens? God's Word is not difficult to grasp here "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city..." or else what??? Nothing?

[Lysimachus]

If I were you Ron, I would listen to the 4 radio shows on the Israel of God by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris. I'd be very surprised if you can refute their arguments. It just takes a lot of time to document and type out the arguments, but I find it a shame that we have to sit here to try and re-invent the wheel for you when so much documentation has been put forth on this matter, it leaves one in wonder and amazement at how you can still continue arguing.

I recommend you read the following materials:

Books and PDF Document links:

The Israel of God by D.S. Farris (51 pages, FULL PDF DOCUMENT)

Israel and the Church by Gerard Pfandl, Ph.D. [if that link doesn't work, try this one] (FULL PDF DOCUMENT)

The Israel of God in Prophecy: Principles of Prophetic Interpretation by Hans K. Larondelle, Ph.D. (LINK TO BOOK)

Exploding the Israel Deception by Steve Wohlberg (LINK TO BOOK)

Who Will Sing the Song? Understanding the 144,000 by Doug Batchelor (FULL PDF DOCUMENT) -- although the subject is the 144,000, there is plenty of information in this book to chew on concerning the nature of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Spiritual Israel by Doug Batchelor and Steve Wohlberg (FULL PDF DOCUMENT)

Audio/Radio Show Links - Streaming M3Us:

Recommended Audio Series on the Israel of God, by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris:

The Israel of God - Part 1

The Israel of God - Part 2

The Israel of God - Part 3

The Israel of God - Part 4

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There is so much to fill you in on Ron, it is difficult to even know where to begin because you are clearly missing the big picture of the Great Controversy.

You constantly refer to "SDA interpretation" concerning the Israel of God, when we all know too well how absurd this is, knowing full well that the earliest Church Fathers as well as all the Protestant reformers, and Covenant theology Protestants today subscribe to this very ideology that Adventism happens to subscribe to. There's nothing new under the sun.

My recommendation is, take out some heavy-duty time reading the links above, reading some of the books, listening to all 4 radio shows, and then we can talk. Otherwise, it is useless because you obviously have not studied this matter. You're just throwing ideas out that you have clearly not really studied. You have a lot of studying to do before we can even begin to embark making any heads or tails out of our arguments.

Blessings.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

What gives you the idea that Paul knew which individuals were cut off? Knowing that some are cut off as described in the Law of Moses, is different than knowing which ones are cut off.

How bout just 3 or 4 for the sake of brevity and my slow nature? Romans 11:7 Acts 13:46 28:17-29 I Thes.2:14-16 Gal.4:21-31 OK I'm tired now. Was that 3 or 4?

Doug, wasn't Paul talking about people he was personally familiar with? Isn't that different than when you and I judge those Jews whom we have had no contact with? I looked up your passages. Paul was certainly disgusted with some of those people. Some of them may have done things that would result in being "cut-off" under the terms of the Covenant. But Paul makes no statement whether or not they are cut off. Being in slavery is a consequence of violating the covenant, but not a sign of being cut off from the covenant.

[Ron Amnsn]

You constantly refer to "SDA interpretation" concerning the Israel of God, when we all know too well how absurd this is, knowing full well that the earliest Church Fathers as well as all the Protestant reformers, and Covenant theology Protestants today subscribe to this very ideology that Adventism happens to subscribe to. There's nothing new under the sun.

You apparently have me mixed up with someone else. I have only mentioned the "Israel of God" once in several months and that was not in connection with the SDA interpretation. It makes no difference to me whether the traditions of men were started by the earliest Church Fathers or by the SDA church. If the resulting doctrines contradict Scripture they should be rejected.

I will consider the materials you have listed.

[phkrause]

Ron, just curious from where your coming from, so if you don't want to answer that's OK. Here goes, are you of Jewish descent? And if you are, are you still one or are you now a SDA or from another denomination?

[Ron Amnsn]

I will consider the materials you have listed.

I listened to the first 16 minutes of the first "Israel of God" radio program by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris. Although I agree with most of what they point out as problems with dispensationalism, I couldn't recommend them as a resource for serious Bible students. Their method of scoffing at opposing views and using proof-texts (out of context) would embarrass me, even if they were teaching something I totally believed in. As I listened to the audio, my 15-year-old son was pointing out the fallacies in the logic of their presentation.

[Ron Amnsn]

Ron, just curious from where your coming from, so if you don't want to answer that's OK. Here goes, are you of Jewish descent? And if you are, are you still one or are you now a SDA or from another denomination?

I have no Jewish ancestors that I know of. I was SDA for my first 35 years. Attended SDA schools from 3rd grade through college. In 1995 I started checking out what I had been taught to see what was Scriptural and what was man-made tradition. In 1999 I noticed that Paul and the apostles in Acts were still doing lots of Old Testament things.

[doug yowell]

Doug, wasn't Paul talking about people he was personally familiar with? Isn't that different than when you and I judge those Jews whom we have had no contact with? I looked up your passages. Paul was certainly disgusted with some of those people. Some of them may have done things that would result in being "cut-off" under the terms of the Covenant. But Paul makes no statement whether or not they are cut off. Being in slavery is a consequence of violating the covenant, but not a sign of being cut off from the covenant.

Paul wasn't personally familar with all of these Jews. But he was familar with what they taught and how they acted.this is his basis of judgment. He prejudges no one until they have exhibited a certain resistence to the gospel.Notice that most of these that Paul condemns do not live in Israel proper.Some were part of the dispersion of Jews that often journeyed to Jerusalem for the important feasts,ect... Seems like Jews everywhere responded like the Jews in Jerusalem, some believed the report, most did not.It was always the Jews who took the initiative to run Paul out of every town,attempting to forbid him from preaching a gospel that included the Gentiles as their equals.The dark age teaching that all Jews were locked out of the kingdom because of their Jewishness has been relegated to the historical dumpster. Nobody believes or preaches that today. What SDA's simply state is that the Gentile and the Jew are on the same footing before God.Neither can access eternal life apart from a stated and acted faith in Jesus as substitute and victor over their sins. "Circumcision is nothing, uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is something." Jews who reject Jesus as Lord of All have no get out of hell free card.

[Guest]

What SDA's simply state is that the Gentile and the Jew are on the same footing before God.Neither can access eternal life apart from a stated and acted faith in Jesus as substitute and victor over their sins. "Circumcision is nothing, uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is something." Jews who reject Jesus as Lord of All have no get out of hell free card.

I concur.

[John317]

Me too!

[Ron Amnsn]

Paul wasn't personally familar with all of these Jews. But he was familar with what they taught and how they acted.this is his basis of judgment. He prejudges no one until they have exhibited a certain resistence to the gospel.Notice that most of these that Paul condemns do not live in Israel proper.Some were part of the dispersion of Jews that often journeyed to Jerusalem for the important feasts,ect...

[phkrause]

I have no Jewish ancestors that I know of. I was SDA for my first 35 years. Attended SDA schools from 3rd grade through college. In 1995 I started checking out what I had been taught to see what was Scriptural and what was man-made tradition. In 1999 I noticed that Paul and the apostles in Acts were still doing lots of Old Testament things.

Thanks, was just curious as to where you were coming from. I don't agree with everything, but you make some interesting points.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

I will consider the materials you have listed.

I listened to the first 16 minutes of the first "Israel of God" radio program by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris. Although I agree with most of what they point out as problems with dispensationalism, I couldn't recommend them as a resource for serious Bible students. Their method of scoffing at opposing views and using proof-texts (out of context) would embarrass me, even if they were teaching something I totally believed in. As I listened to the audio, my 15-year-old son was pointing out the fallacies in the logic of their presentation.

I should have warned you that they tend to come across a bit sharp in their scoffing attitude. While I do not necessarily approve of their "manner" of presentation, it was the data they present that necessitated me to share them with you. The first 15 minutes isn't going to do much. It's a total of 4 hours, divided into 4 parts.

It's important to focus on the message and not the messenger. So I encourage you to take the arguments on their own merits rather than worrying about how they are presenting it. If you do not wish to listen to the audios, then just read D.S. Farris' paper that I linked "The Israel of God". The 4 part radio show is based on the information written in the paper.

[doug yowell]

But God's covenants and promises to the Israelites included a lot of things related to this life. When I was an SDA, the church was teaching that those promises and covenants were now void. That doctrine is not found in Scripture.

It's easy to state the above, but you either unintentionally or purposefully misrepresent SDA teachings.The SDA church does not teach that the non-eternal life covenants have been voided. Why don't you make a specific list of those covenants and their promises that you think we (and traditional Christianity)believe were either never fulfilled by God or were nullified after the nation quit responding to the gospel.

[Lysimachus]

Let's look at your passages:

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

This is an example where Paul is obviously using the word "Israel" to refer to the natural descendants of Jacob, not "the church". What does he say about Israel? That they are cut-off from the Covenants? No. Only that they were hardened or blinded. From the context it is apparent that the condition is temporary (verse 25). So although Paul is speaking in a general way about unbelieving Israelites, he is not saying they are cut off from the olive tree.

[Ron Amnsn]

It's easy to state the above, but you either unintentionally or purposefully misrepresent SDA teachings.The SDA church does not teach that the non-eternal life covenants have been voided. Why don't you make a specific list of those covenants and their promises that you think we (and traditional Christianity)believe were either never fulfilled by God or were nullified after the nation quit responding to the gospel.

Here are a few. There are more.

• Gen 17:8 "And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
• Gen 17:10 ff "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
• Num 18:24 "For the tithe of the sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance; therefore I have said concerning them, 'They shall have no inheritance among the sons of Israel.'"
• Num 25:11-13 "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned away My wrath from the sons of Israel, in that he was jealous with My jealousy among them, so that I did not destroy the sons of Israel in My jealousy. Therefore say, 'Behold, I give him My covenant of peace; and it shall be for him and his descendants after him, a covenant of a perpetual priesthood, because he was jealous for his God, and made atonement for the sons of Israel.'"

[doug yowell]

It is absolutely impossible to say that true Israel is separate from the body of Christ, and we know that the body of Christ is the church.

This is so simple, a child can understand it. Jews as individuals have not been cut off, but the national, geopolitical state of Israel, as a distinct nation to carry the covenant blessings have been cut off. Jews now who want to be saved must accept Jesus Christ, the true Israel, the King of Israel. Where fleshly Israel failed, Jesus Christ succeeded, fulfilling that which Israel failed to fulfill.

No, every Jew that converts is automatically part of the Church in the eyes of God.

Yes, the hope of Israel is that when those Jews accept Christ, they will be part of the tree, which is Jesus Christ, the body of Christ, the congregation (the Church). That covenant is always made available to those who accept Him as their personal Saviour.

Good stuff,Marcos

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

It's easy to state the above, but you either unintentionally or purposefully misrepresent SDA teachings.The SDA church does not teach that the non-eternal life covenants have been voided. Why don't you make a specific list of those covenants and their promises that you think we (and traditional Christianity)believe were either never fulfilled by God or were nullified after the nation quit responding to the gospel.

Here are a few. There are more.

• Gen 17:8 "And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
• Gen 17:10 ff "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
• Num 18:24 "For the tithe of the sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance; therefore I have said concerning them, 'They shall have no inheritance among the sons of Israel.'"
• Num 25:11-13 "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned away My wrath from the sons of Israel, in that he was jealous with My jealousy among them, so that I did not destroy the sons of Israel in My jealousy. Therefore say, 'Behold, I give him My covenant of peace; and it shall be for him and his descendants after him, a covenant of a perpetual priesthood, because he was jealous for his God, and made atonement for the sons of Israel.'"

Thanks,Ron. That makes it easier for me to understand what you're trying to get at. I'm tired of sitting so we'll try and touch on each of these later if it's ok?

[Ron Amnsn]

All he is emphasizing is that God has not cut them off as individuals. Remember, Paul is tailoring his language to Jews who only understand "Israel" as Jewish people, therefore, he is gently helping them understand the truth.

[Ron Amnsn]

Quote:

Act 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

These were Jews Paul was dealing with personally. Were they cut off from the covenants because of what they said and did? Perhaps. Paul doesn't tell us.

Of course not. Nobody is here saying that.

[Ron Amnsn]

Yes, the hope of Israel is that when those Jews accept Christ, they will be part of the tree, which is Jesus Christ, the body of Christ, the congregation (the Church). Nowhere does it say they will be saved as a distinct entity from the body of Christ.

Lysimachus, you aren't going to fool any student of Scripture into believing that Jesus is the tree. Jesus is the vine. The olive tree (Rom. 11) was a tree that Paul said the unbelieving "cut-off" Israelites could be grafted back onto. Paul called it "their own" olive tree. There is no way that olive tree could represent Jesus or "the church" because the unbelieving "cut-off" Israelites had never been part of Jesus or of "the church" in a way that would make it "their own" olive tree to be grafted back onto.

Nowhere have I said that the Israelites will be saved as a distinct entity from the body of Christ. That's a dispensationalist doctrine. I am not dispensationalist. Instead, I believe what Jewish believers (like the apostle Paul) believe. In fact, I haven't said much about the descendants of Jacob getting "saved" at all. (Except I did say that the Old Testament method of getting "saved" should still work for those Israelites who have never heard a truthful presentation about Jesus.) Mostly what I've been trying to say is that God has not rejected Israel as a nation.

[Lysimachus]

Yikes, it is really hard to know what you are saying Ron. At one moment you act like Israel is part of the Church, and at another moment you act as if is distinct. You speak in riddles.

You take the most confusing position on this that I have ever seen. Looks like I have to waste another 4 hours of my time responding to everything you said above again. I guess you are determined to have the last word.