Christianity and Israel

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

Acts

2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.

2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Scriptures are clear. All those Jews that accepted the Messiah were added to the CHURCH. Not added to a "distinct Israel".

[Alchemy]

We must first realize Who Israel is, both literally and spiritually.

Jesus is literal Israel and His followers are spiritual Israel.

So, to answer your question, that country called Israel in the Middle East has some significance because of it's history, but nothing more than that. I hope many will be grafted into the vine before it is too late.

[Ron Amnsn]

I've got news. I've got GIGANTIC NEWS. The Church is the "continuation" of that SAME congregation in the Old Testament--and this congregation incorporates Jews and Gentiles alike that make up the Israel of God.

I am familiar with the congregation of Israel in the Old Testament. It was everyone who showed up when the people of Israel were assembled for worship, meetings, and war. It also included the women, children and infirm who may not have showed up.

Yes, the ekklesia or "assembly" in the New Testament does correspond in a local context to the the whole "congregation" of Israel in the Old Testament. Of course, the various local assemblies realized that they were just the local part of the larger body of Israel (which could no longer assemble because of the dispersion of Israel and Judah that resulted from exile).

The New Testament assemblies did not imagine that they replaced or excluded any of those who would be included in the congregation of Israel in the Old Testament sense. Even among the various sects of Judaism, the assemblies of one sect of Judaism knew that the assemblies of other sects were part of the congregation of Israel in God's eyes, especially when it related to the corporate (national) guilt or responsibility of Israel or when it came time to fight against the enemies of Israel, or when enjoying the exemption from pagan emperor worship that had been granted to Jews by the Romans.

The sense of corporate (national) responsibility is one reason why the sects of Judaism sometimes persecuted each other in their efforts to purify Israel so that God would bless the nation. The reason that Paul was disciplined by the Jews with beatings (etc.) was because Paul came under the authority of the synagogue leaders (and Sanhedrin) within Judaism, even though he was from a different sect of Judaism.

Christians acknowledge the larger definition of Israel when they talk about Israel as a nation suffering the consequences of disobedience in New Testament times.

On the other hand, Christians often imagine that the "assemblies" of the New Testament displaced or replaced the rest of the congregation of Israel in God's eyes. Scriptural support for that notion of exclusion, displacement or replacement is lacking.

Just to clarify your statement that "The Church is the 'continuation' of that SAME congregation in the Old Testament," let me ask some questions:

• In the Old Testament, did the Congregation of Israel include individuals who did not follow Jesus as the Messiah?
• In the New Testament, did the Congregation of Israel include individuals who did not follow Jesus as the Messiah?
• Currently, does the Congregation of Israel include individuals who do not follow Jesus as the Messiah?
• If your answer to the three previous questions is not the same, please specify on which day the change took place. In other words, on which specific day was it that a non-follower of Jesus was no longer considered to be part of the Congregation of Israel, when he had been a part of the Congregation of Israel on the previous day?

[doug yowell]

Jesus was the Jewish Messiah foretold in the Jewish Scriptures. The Jews didn't abandon their former religion in order to accept Jesus.

You keep reasoning in circles. And keep implying that a generic belief in a messiah is the equivalent of the specific belief in exactly Who the Messiah was. You state that Paul didn't convert Jews into Christians. This is blatantly false unless you're suddenly defining Christians as a generic term which does not necessarily identify who it was that these "Christians" believed in.Paul himself clearly states,echoing the words of Jesus, "if any man be in Christ(Jesus) he is a NEW CREATION,OLD THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY,ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW." So something happened that was new to the formerly already Jew.

[doug yowell]

The Jews didn't abandon their former religion in order to accept Jesus.

This is absolutely true. And if so then what about the Jews who didn't accept the Messiah of their former religion? Are you suggesting that,once a Jew,you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave?

[doug yowell]

Christians often say that when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost 3000 Jews were converted. But if you read the story from Scripture, you'll find that there is no mention of conversion. The Jews who accepted Jesus were simply added to the number of Jews who had previously accepted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. You can speak of Gentiles who converted to Judaism, but Jews didn't need to convert to follow Jesus.

What makes your view so confusing is just that. You are defining conversion in a strictly "religion" sense. When Christians speak of Bible conversion they are specifically referring to a conversion of the heart not a change from one "religion" to another.True Christianity and true Bible Jewism requires that all unite under one Redeemer not that all unite under one unique eclesiastical organization.It is in this sense that all Jews need to be converted.So when Peter speaks to those Jewish pilgrims on Pentecost he tells them that they need to "repent"(turn around,go the other way) and later in Acts 3 to "repent and BE CONVERTED" he is telling them to become "real Jews" and not merely cultural Jews.

[doug yowell]

I think you need to clarify this statement in the light of what we believe the "church" to be.

[doug yowell]

Christians acknowledge the larger definition of Israel when they talk about Israel as a nation suffering the consequences of disobedience in New Testament times.

On the other hand, Christians often imagine that the "assemblies" of the New Testament displaced or replaced the rest of the congregation of Israel in God's eyes. Scriptural support for that notion of exclusion, displacement or replacement is lacking.

How can your unbiblical assertion assertion be true? Are you saying that God was just as accepting and just as accommodating of a disobedient congregation as He was to a humble and obedient one? When the new Jewish (church)believers were excommunicated (what happens to these people?),imprisoned,stoned,jailed,beaten,killed, ostracized from their communities,by their local assemblies, with the offical permission of the Jewish leadership,is there no reason for God to consider the new assembly as the true assembly and to honor the estabished assembly's choice to "judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life"? In God's eyes are they equal? Can those who persecuted Him still be called God's special people?

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

Jesus was the Jewish Messiah foretold in the Jewish Scriptures. The Jews didn't abandon their former religion in order to accept Jesus.

You keep reasoning in circles. And keep implying that a generic belief in a messiah is the equivalent of the specific belief in exactly Who the Messiah was. You state that Paul didn't convert Jews into Christians. This is blatantly false unless you're suddenly defining Christians as a generic term which does not necessarily identify who it was that these "Christians" believed in.

[doug yowell]

By the way Christianity in general and Adventism in particular teach that there are two Israels and two Churchs. We often refer to the two churchs as the visible and the invisible church.One refers to those who are a part of the organized assembly but who have never been converted at heart.We speak of Israel in the same way, there is the literal Israel made up of those who belong to the cultural or organizational assembly but whose hearts are still in rebellion to the call of Christ. Conversely we believe that there is an invisible church. One that is made up of those, who also being part of the organized assembly, have had their hearts changed by Christ Jesus and are living in harmony with God's law and Spirit.This is the true church that God will fulfill His promises to on the day of Judgment. When we speak of the other Israel we also speak of those who are culturally connected to that assembly but whose hearts have been changed by The Holy Spirit. These, like the invisible Church, profess the Jesus is the Messiah and are living in harmony with His Law and His Spirit.We Christians refer to this as "Spiritual Israel". We teach that this spiritual Israel and the invisible church are of the same body, they are the same entity."One flock,one shepherd." We believe that those whose hearts have never been changed have no right to claim any of God's rewards for faithfulness, Jewish or not.

[Ron Amnsn]

So when Peter speaks to those Jewish pilgrims on Pentecost he tells them that they need to "repent"(turn around,go the other way) and later in Acts 3 to "repent and BE CONVERTED" he is telling them to become "real Jews" and not merely cultural Jews.

Repenting was an Old Testament activity which the Jews were familiar with. The word that the KJV translates as "be converted" in Acts 3:19 means to revert or return, not to leave the old for something new. The NASB translates it as "return" and the ESV translates it "turn again".

[Ron Amnsn]

When we speak of the other Israel we also speak of those who are culturally connected to that assembly but whose hearts have been changed by The Holy Spirit. These, like the invisible Church, profess the Jesus is the Messiah and are living in harmony with His Law and His Spirit.We Christians refer to this as "Spiritual Israel". We teach that this spiritual Israel and the invisible church are of the same body, they are the same entity."One flock,one shepherd." We believe that those whose hearts have never been changed have no right to claim any of God's rewards for faithfulness, Jewish or not.

At first it sounds like you are saying that your "Spiritual Israel" is made up of actual Jews and Israelites who are descendants of Jacob, but later it sounds like you are saying that Gentile Christians are part of your "Spiritual Israel". Which is it?

[doug yowell]

Which part of being a "Christian" do you think was incompatible with being a righteous Jew or Israelite? Which part of the Old Testament religion did they need to be "converted" away from?

Today there is a distinct separation between religions Jews and Christians, but that was not the case in New Testament times. The followers of Jesus were a sect within Judaism. When Christians try to use today's situation as if it were the context of the New Testament, they misunderstand the New Testament and end up with a religion of their own making.

I am in total agreement with you as would be the majority of SDA's.That's why I said earlier that Jews and Adventists have so much in common.Original identification of what the church was in the NT historically morphed into today's muddled version of modern Christianity's dispensationalism. What you describe as OT religion is not what today's Jewish theology teaches. It is well documented that when Jesus came the Jews were teaching a completely distorted,culturally exclusive, morally incompatable, version of the OT. He called it "the traditions of men".This bogus interpretation of God's word has only gotten more twisted today.This has also affected the church over the centuries. SDA's teach clearly, unlike almost every other Christian group, the true Christianity requires the harmony of both the OT and the NT. That the true principles of godliness were originally found in the gospel given to the Jews. Why do you think that we are so often blamed for trying to push the keeping of the "Jewish Sabbath"? (see that other thread here at CA),dietary guidelines, ect... And unlike any other Christian group we base our unique calling on our understanding of the Scriptures given originally to the Jews.We consider ourselves true Jews.

[doug yowell]

At first it sounds like you are saying that your "Spiritual Israel" is made up of actual Jews and Israelites who are descendants of Jacob, but later it sounds like you are saying that Gentile Christians are part of your "Spiritual Israel". Which is it?

All of the above who keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of/in Jesus. All of the above who have been born again.All of the above who have the faith of Abraham.

[doug yowell]

The word that the KJV translates as "be converted" in Acts 3:19 means to revert or return, not to leave the old for something new. The NASB translates it as "return" and the ESV translates it "turn again".

Same thing. Ya gotta change directions if you're going the wrong way.Or as some once said, "Get back,get back, get back to where you once belonged."

[Ron Amnsn]

How can your unbiblical assertion assertion be true? Are you saying that God was just as accepting and just as accommodating of a disobedient congregation as He was to a humble and obedient one? When the new Jewish (church)believers were excommunicated (what happens to these people?), imprisoned,stoned, jailed, beaten, killed, ostracized from their communities, by their local assemblies, with the offical permission of the Jewish leadership, is there no reason for God to consider the new assembly as the true assembly and to honor the established assembly's choice to "judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life"? In God's eyes are they equal? Can those who persecuted Him still be called God's special people?

You make it sound like persecuting the followers of Jesus was a universal trait among Jews who did not accept Jesus. The evidence in Acts and in Paul's epistles shows that was not the case. If all non-believing Jews had been persecutors there would have been no reason for Saul to go to foreign cities like Damascus with a letter from the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem to find believers and persecute them. Saul went to synagogues to find believers to persecute. Apparently the believers were not being persecuted until Saul arrived.

You also make it sound like all the Jewish assemblies all over the world heard a truthful report about Jesus during the period when the New Testament was written. That was not the case.

You also make it sound like Judaism was a united organization under the control of the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem. That was not the actual situation. There were numerous sects in Judaism most of whom coexisted in the synagogues. Besides the Sadducees and Pharisees there were the Essenes, Zealots, Herodians, the Way (followers of Jesus), and several other sects. The individual synagogues often acted independently as can be seen by the contrast between the synagogues in Thessolanica and Berea in Acts 17 and the response of the Jewish leaders in Rome in Acts 28.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

The word that the KJV translates as "be converted" in Acts 3:19 means to revert or return, not to leave the old for something new. The NASB translates it as "return" and the ESV translates it "turn again".

Same thing. Ya gotta change directions if you're going the wrong way.Or as some once said, "Get back,get back, get back to where you once belonged."

It's not the same thing. When Christians talk about Jews converting to Christianity they mean leaving the old and accepting the new. The word used in Acts 3:19 does not mean that. It means to return or go back. When Jews return or go back, they don't convert to Christianity or another new religion.

Peter wasn't asking the Jews to convert to a different religion in Acts 3.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

At first it sounds like you are saying that your "Spiritual Israel" is made up of actual Jews and Israelites who are descendants of Jacob, but later it sounds like you are saying that Gentile Christians are part of your "Spiritual Israel". Which is it?

All of the above who keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of/in Jesus. All of the above who have been born again.All of the above who have the faith of Abraham.

Ok, so which Israelite characteristics does your "Spiritual Israel" actually have?

Do they consider themselves part of the larger body of Israelites, or do they separate themselves from that?

Do they keep all the commandments of God or just the "10 Commandments" (which are actually called the 10 Words)? Do they strive to live as Jesus and Paul lived, or do they filter out the Old Testament things they don't relate to?

Do they actually know what they have inherited from Abraham and from Israel and value it?

Or is "Spritual Israel" just a name that feels good?

[doug yowell]

It's not the same thing. When Christians talk about Jews converting to Christianity they mean leaving the old and accepting the new.

Leaving the old what? Accepting the new what?

[doug yowell]

The word used in Acts 3:19 does not mean that. It means to return or go back. When Jews return or go back, they don't convert to Christianity or another new religion.

The word means what the word means. You yourself even agree that it means to go back. If you're already there ya don't need to go anywhere, much less back.If they were already practicing their true religion they had no need to repent of anything. Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ of the Jewish Scriptures and having just murdered Him the people needed to turn back to what the Scriptures had foretold of HIm and confess Him as the promised Messiah. the Jews were being told to turn back from the distorted version of what had become part and parcel of their traditional religion and recognize that He was the promised Savior of the World,the Jewish King, the heir of David, ect... They were being given a last chance to join with Jesus in evangelizing the entire world. A true Christ(ian) is one who professes and lives this way.It differs not at all if they are from a Jewish background.Any religion that does not confess that Jesus is the fulfilled promise to the world is a false religion even if it claims to be pure Jewish.

[Ron Amnsn]

Quote:

But God's covenants and promises to the Israelites included a lot of things related to this life. When I was an SDA, the church was teaching that those promises and covenants were now void. That doctrine is not found in Scripture.

But SDA's do not teach this. You have been duped by this because there are a lot of false SDA's that do not understand true SDA teaching. When you ceased to become an SDA, you ceased based on faulty predilections of what true Adventism really teaches on these matters. Then you assumed that this is what "SDA's teach", and used it as a grounds to cease being an SDA. But the truth of the matter is, you did not do your homework.

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus, why are you discussing me instead of the issues I have raised? You have spoken falsely about me. When I was an SDA I read virtually everything of EGW's writings that were published (except parts of her R&H and Signs articles). Are you saying EGW wasn't a true SDA?

[Ron Amnsn]

All the covenant promises to ancient Israel are still in effect, but now from a global-world-wide-standpoint.

[Ron Amnsn]

No matter how hard you try to convince me that you are not a dispensationalist, it just isn't going to work. To me, you are a dispensationalist.

That explains your confusion. If you thought of me as a Jew who follows Jesus, you'd be much closer to understanding what I've been trying to say. I am not a Jew by birth, but I I'd like to join the congregation of Jewish believers in Jerusalem that is described in Acts 21:20.

[Ron Amnsn]

It is not devious. If your wife commits adultery on you, she has broken her covenant.

Adultery would indeed be a violation of the covenant. I could then forgive my wife or divorce her. But if at that point I instead went to live with another woman and pretended that it was a continuation of the covenant with my first wife, that would be devious. Neither of the women would accept that as a valid fulfillment of the original covenant, nor would any court of law. That's what you're saying God has done with his covenant with the Israelites.

Covenants are made with specific parties. If you change the parties, it is not the same covenant.