Adventist View of God Quiz

[ClubV12]

I cringe a bit at even the thought of trying to find out God as it relates to a physical body. For me, that crosses a line from a sanctified imagination into the realm of speculation. Speculation is something I personally don't feel comfortable with.

,,,,but,,, carry on ya'll.

Yes, to numbers 1, 2 and 3. With reservations on #3, that comes pretty close to speculation as to even a close proximity of heavens physical location. But I do know where it WILL be when all this is said and done, planet earth! Which will become the very center of the Universe when the time is fulfilled.

[CoAspen]

I'd certainly like to at least see that position being justified from the Bible. To re-iterate:

1) God has a literal throne in heaven that he occupies

2) The heaven is a physical location somewhere far away in our physical universe

3) There's a good chance that heaven is located somewhere in the region Orion's belt constellation.

4) God has literal body-parts, and "in the image of God" refers to not merely Character, but the physical aspects of God

1) symbolic of position and power, no physical 'seating device'

2) No, outside of

3) not in, beyond, another dimension

4) Don't know

Bible doesn't give us full answers to these questions, much symbolism, maybe for a reason! God did not want to be viewed in the same way as other 'Gods'. God wanted us to believe He existed but form or matter was not important for a belief in a better life or the return to perfection as a future event. Humans want something they can wrap their minds around, so we invent a methodology to explain God and heaven. I believe both exist.

[John317]

Well...some have made the outline that others should follow...they think. Revelation of God is only through Bible writers and EGW. So I reckon the relationship question has been answered. And God no longer 'reveals' Himself to anyone!

Yes, God certainly does reveal Himself to other people, but if the revelation is genuine, it will agree with the revelation He gave through the prophets and apostles.

The standard of truth is that which God has previously revealed.

If someone claims that they were given a dream by God which showed that the Bible-- or an individual apostle, such as Paul-- is wrong, would you accept their claim?

Or what if they claim God has chosen them as His prophet, yet they claim that Ellen White was either a false prophet or that she was mistaken in her visions and dreams? Would you accept the claim?

[John317]

Wake me when we get to the 'discussing our own beliefs' bit, but you can probably already guess that I'm pretty much the opposite on all elements...

What exactly are your own beliefs?

[John317]

1) God has a literal throne in heaven that he occupies

2) The heaven is a physical location somewhere far away in our physical universe

3) There's a good chance that heaven is located somewhere in the region Orion's belt constellation.

4) God has literal body-parts, and "in the image of God" refers to not merely Character, but the physical aspects of God

Originally Posted By: Co-Aspen

1) symbolic of position and power, no physical 'seating device'

2) No, outside of

3) not in, beyond, another dimension

4) Don't know

Why did you answer these questions as you did? What is the basis of your answers?

In your view, do the Bible and Ellen White have any authority in these issues?

[John317]

I cringe a bit at even the thought of trying to find out God as it relates to a physical body. For me, that crosses a line from a sanctified imagination into the realm of speculation. Speculation is something I personally don't feel comfortable with.

The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy do reveal some things we can know about this, but you are right that we don't know a whole lot and it is wrong to go beyond what God has revealed. Speculation is using human reasoning to try and arrive at truth about God on questions that are not the subjects of God's self-revelation. This is especially true of topics dealing with God as He is in Himself. We haven't even yet come close to mastering what He's revealed about Himself in relationship to His creation.

[Bravus]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Wake me when we get to the 'discussing our own beliefs' bit, but you can probably already guess that I'm pretty much the opposite on all elements...

What exactly are your own beliefs?

In answer to all four questions, I believe - based on the revealed characteristics of God in Scripture - that God is infinite in size and therefore fills all of space and is larger than all of space (which is believed to be finite). Infinite means just that, without end: how can one be infinite in a specific physical location? God pervades all of space and time, and is everywhere and everywhen, knows everything, is all powerful.

Any God smaller than the universe is not God at all, just a man in a box.

I have to go to class now, but I'll be back with Scripture: bring yours.

And I'm not even interested in getting into 'Ellen White said', nor debates about same, but no doubt it'll be brought up.

How about a "this much can be supported from the Bible alone" and "this extra knowledge is drawn from Ellen White"? A clear delineation of that would be helpful to those who are Sola Scriptura believers.

[John317]

And I'm not even interested in getting into 'Ellen White said', nor debates about same, but no doubt it'll be brought up.

I have no doubt you're not interested, and I believe I understand why. However, since this is ClubAdventistForum, where Seventh-day Adventists come to discuss issues of interest to the SDA church, and since the SDA church acknowledges Ellen G. White as a genuine prophet of God, it's essential to look at what both the Bible and Ellen White have to say. After all, Seventh-day Adventists consider both sources to be special revelation.

I don't want a debate about it but an exchange of views, or an informal conversation.

[John317]

I'd certainly like to at least see that position being justified from the Bible. To re-iterate:

1) God has a literal throne in heaven that he occupies

2) The heaven is a physical location somewhere far away in our physical universe

3) There's a good chance that heaven is located somewhere in the region Orion's belt constellation.

4) God has literal body-parts, and "in the image of God" refers to not merely Character, but the physical aspects of God

What are your own personal views?

Do you use primarily human reasoning to arrive at your conclusions? Or do you base your views mostly on Special Revelation?

[Bravus]

I have no doubt you're not interested, and I believe I understand why. However, since this is ClubAdventistForum, where Seventh-day Adventists come to discuss issues of interest to the SDA church, and since the SDA church acknowledges Ellen G. White as a genuine prophet of God, it's essential to look at what both the Bible and Ellen White have to say. After all, Seventh-day Adventists consider both sources to be special revelation.

As I said, you'll do yourself and others a favour if you're able to clearly distinguish what comes from where, then each can decide based on a clear understanding of sources.

And now, instead of more catechising of others, let's see your case, John317: show us the evidence, based in special revelation, for a physical God on a physical throne in a physical location in this universe.

[John317]

As I said, you'll do yourself and others a favour if you're able to clearly distinguish what comes from where, then each can decide based on a clear understanding of sources.

And now, instead of more catechising of others, let's see your case, John317: show us the evidence, based in special revelation, for a physical God on a physical throne in a physical location in this universe.

You posted:

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I have to go to class now, but I'll be back with Scripture: bring yours.

Where's the Scriptural support of your views?

[John317]

...As I said, you'll do yourself and others a favour if you're able to clearly distinguish what comes from where, then each can decide based on a clear understanding of sources.

If you're talking about clearly distinguishing between what comes from Scripture and what comes from the Spirit of prophecy, yes, I certainly will.

[Bravus]

Posted the above before class still. ;-)

Here goes the Scriptural support:

1 Timothy 1:17

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Exodus 24:10

And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

The whole book of Ezekiel uses physical images for God but is overwhelmed and uses language in novel ways in attempting to describe the reality of God. Read even just the first chapter and try to maintain the belief that he looks something like a bigger, perfect version of us.

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

There's more, but I'm away home now.

[BobRyan]

And now, instead of more catechising of others, let's see your case, John317: show us the evidence, based in special revelation, for a physical God on a physical throne in a physical location in this universe.

John 14 - Jesus said "I GO TO the Father -- and the father is greater than I" speaking of His departure.

John 14 "IN my Fathers house are many mansions - if it were not so I would have told you".

Heb 8 "He (Christ) has TAKEN His seat AT the right hand of the throne of Magesty IN the heavens a minister IN the Sanctuary and IN the TRUE tabernacle which the Lord pitched and not man... Now if He were ON EARTH He would not be a priest at all" for the temple and ministry on earth "serve as a shadow and copy OF the things in heaven".

Heb 9 "When Christ appeared as a High Priest He ENTERED through the more perfect tabernacle NOT made with hands...not of THIS creation" vs 11

Daniel 7 "Thrones were SET UP, the Ancient of days took His seat... the Son of Man CAME TO the Ancient of Days and took His seat... Myrads and myriads were standing before Him the COURT SAT and the BOOKs were opened... I was looking UNTIL the Ancient of Days CAME and Judgment was passed in favor of the saints".

And then of course there is Rev 21 and 22 -- all of which give locality - physicality to the presence of God, the Throne of God, the City of God.

The list is endless.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

This is not really a wright or wrong dogma discussion. Just would like to know what was taught in your local church on the subject (not what you currently believe), or the impression that you God when growing up, or learning these questions from your church. These are all true or false, for ease of comparing.

1) God has a literal throne in heaven that he occupies

2) The heaven is a physical location somewhere far away in our physical universe

3) There's a good chance that heaven is located somewhere in the region Orion's belt constellation.

4) God has literal body-parts, and "in the image of God" refers to not merely Character, but the physical aspects of God

God has a literal throne where real angels stand and minister.

Heaven is a real location where real angel live and from which real administration of the real universe takes place.

The Orion arm of the Milkyway galaxy is Earth's "location" and indicates a "direction" from which Christ will come but may not indicate the source location. The advantage of the Orion designation is that the direction is fixed no matter the time of year or position of the earth in its orbit around the sun.

God's body (as in the Body of Christ - who is God in the OT) is described many times in OT and NT.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

Well...some have made the outline that others should follow...they think. Revelation of God is only through Bible writers and EGW. So I reckon the relationship question has been answered. And God no longer 'reveals' Himself to anyone!

From my background, I don't remember anyone having an answer for God having a physical form. The final answer most often given was, 'we don't really know'. I spent the majority of my education in SDA schools and lived in 3 different SDA towns, so I had a rather broad exposure to various traditional beliefs and ideas.

Yes I agree there are a lot of ideas going around. I also believe that if it was important for us to know he would've revealed it to us very plainly to us in the Bible. As has been mentioned by many throughout history there are things we will never know till we get to heaven. But the funny thing is, God has revealed much to EGW but so many want nothing to do with her! Maybe he's interested in how we relate to what she has revealed to us? What kind of faith do we really have? Anyway don't get me wrong, there's no reason for us not to question or even to speculate, he wants us to look for him, through whatever means, pray, daily walk with him, Bible study, etc. I personally have no problem with what's revealed in his Holy Word the Bible! I also have no problem with what EGW reveals about God, for me she fills in where the Bible leaves out. So many ask questions but refuse to take her word for it. In the Bible the writers had that same problem, especially in the OT we can see that. We see that with Jeremiah as he kept telling them to what God was telling them to do, but no, that can't be what God really wants us to do, is all they came up with. But as we read on we see that he was right on. There are more examples but that one is enough for now.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I cringe a bit at even the thought of trying to find out God as it relates to a physical body. For me, that crosses a line from a sanctified imagination into the realm of speculation. Speculation is something I personally don't feel comfortable with.

The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy do reveal some things we can know about this, but you are right that we don't know a whole lot and it is wrong to go beyond what God has revealed. Speculation is using human reasoning to try and arrive at truth about God on questions that are not the subjects of God's self-revelation. This is especially true of topics dealing with God as He is in Himself. We haven't even yet come close to mastering what He's revealed about Himself in relationship to His creation.

I agree with you and Club on this also. It kind of reminds me of that statement in the Bible where the disciples asked Jesus why he always talked in parables to the people, and Jesus made an interesting statement. He said that he talked in parables because those that really wanted to know him would be able to understand what he was saying while those that really didn't would have no idea of what he was saying. As club mentioned somewhere else spiritual things are only known by those that are spiritually atuned to him.

[John317]

Here goes the Scriptural support:

1 Timothy 1:17

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Exodus 24:10

And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

The whole book of Ezekiel uses physical images for God but is overwhelmed and uses language in novel ways in attempting to describe the reality of God. Read even just the first chapter and try to maintain the belief that he looks something like a bigger, perfect version of us.

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Which of the questions that fccool asked are the above verses supposed to be supporting?

For instance, you quote 1 Tim. 1: 17, which says God is "invisible." How does the fact that God is invisible show that God does not occupy a literal throne in heaven? Or how does it relate to any of the other questions we're looking at?

Originally Posted By: fccool

1) God has a literal throne in heaven that he occupies

2) The heaven is a physical location somewhere far away in our physical universe

3) There's a good chance that heaven is located somewhere in the region Orion's belt constellation.

4) God has literal body-parts, and "in the image of God" refers to not merely Character, but the physical aspects of God.

I'd also like to know your thoughts in regard to the following two questions:

Is Jesus Christ fully God and also a glorified human being with a human body?

Is the Holy Spirit the third Person of the Godhead and is He Omnipresent?

[Bravus]

Lots of confusion here on the part of both Bob and John317 between 'literal', 'real' and 'physical'. I am not saying God is not real and literal - he is both. Indeed, as C.S. Lewis has noted, the spiritual world is *more* real than the physical world.

So I'm not saying God is not real, I'm saying he is not physical. He does not have mass and other properties of matter. He is invisible, as the quote in Timothy says.

Jesus is a human being, since the incarnation, and has a physical body.

Now, John317, I have answered many of your questions, and as yet you have still not presented your own evidence. This is a common approach of yours. How about it? You claim to have it, let's see it.

[John317]

Lots of confusion here on the part of both Bob and John317 between 'literal', 'real' and 'physical'.

Of course there is no confusion about the difference between those terms. I am merely asking for you to clarify for me what your understanding is in regard to subject we're discussing.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I am not saying God is not real and literal - he is both. Indeed, as C.S. Lewis has noted, the spiritual world is *more* real than the physical world.

OK, so God is real and literal. I agree.

Now, is the throne of God, as well as the heavenly sanctuary, real and literal?

Originally Posted By: Bravus

So I'm not saying God is not real, I'm saying he is not physical. He does not have mass and other properties of matter. He is invisible, as the quote in Timothy says.

Yes, of course God is invisible. We all agree on that.

But does the fact that God is invisible and not physical mean that He does not have a body and parts? Don't you believe that God has a form?

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Jesus is a human being, since the incarnation, and has a physical body.

Is Jesus God?

[Bravus]

{waiting}

[John317]

{waiting}

OK, so you believe that God is real and literal. We're in agreement.

Is the throne of God, as well as the heavenly sanctuary, also real and literal?

Do you agree that Jesus is fully God and that He has a body and parts?

[John317]

...There's more, but I'm away home now.

What more do you have? Do you feel that you have already shown sufficient evidence for all of the points fccool asked about?

It would be good if you would not only quote a verse but explain what you believe the verse shows in regard to the questions we're discussing.

[Bravus]

{waiting}

[John317]

...In answer to all four questions, I believe - based on the revealed characteristics of God in Scripture - that God is infinite in size and therefore fills all of space and is larger than all of space (which is believed to be finite). Infinite means just that, without end: how can one be infinite in a specific physical location? God pervades all of space and time, and is everywhere and everywhen, knows everything, is all powerful.

Bravus, none of the above sentences clearly answer the first question:

1) Does God have a literal throne in heaven that he occupies?

You are mistaken to believe that the infinity of God means that He is infinite in size.

Nor does His infinity mean that God cannot be in a specific physical location.

Check out the following:

Genesis 18:22, 23, 33--

So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

Then Abraham drew near and said, "Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

..... And the Lord went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.

NOTE: Yahweh God was standing in front of Abraham and then God left and went somewhere else after He finished talking to His friend Abraham.

Genesis 18:1-8

And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. [2] He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth [3] and said, "O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. [4] Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, [5] while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on— since you have come to your servant." So they said, "Do as you have said." [6] And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quick! Three seahs of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes." [7] And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. [8] Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate.

NOTE: Yahweh God was there by Abraham's tent and eating food while Abraham stood nearby.