Adventist View of God Quiz

[fccool]

Quote:

Do you consider the writings of Ellen White as "making things up"?

Quote:

Daniel March, Night Scenes in the Bible,

pp. 201-202, 1868

We must not defer our obedience till every shadow of uncertainty and every possibility of mistake is removed. The doubt that demands perfect knowledge will never yield to faith, for faith rests upon probability, not demonstration. ... We must obey the voice of duty when there are many other voices crying against it, and it requires earnest heed to distinguish the one which speaks for God.

Ellen White, Selected Messages Book 1, p. 28

If you refuse to believe until every shadow of uncertainty and every possibility of doubt is removed, you will never believe. The doubt that demands perfect knowledge will never yield to faith. Faith rests upon evidence, not demonstration. The Lord requires us to obey the voice of duty, when there are other voices all around us urging us to pursue an opposite course. It requires earnest attention from us to distinguish the voice which speaks from God.

Do you consider Daniel March to be inspired Prophet? Perhaps we should put Daniel March and plenty of other authors that she took ideas from on "Spirit of Prophecy" list?

http://hymnopedia.com/Authors:Daniel_March

Should we have any reasons to distrust, when a prophet of God borrows ideas from the authors that are largely meant to be a commentary, and then turned into "Spirit of Prophecy" by means of "written by"?

[fccool]

Quote:

1) Genesis 5:23-24

Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years. [24] Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

How does this verse support that Heaven is a physical location in this universe?

2) 2 Kings 2:9-12

When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Elisha said, "Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me." [10] And he said, "You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you, but if you do not see me, it shall not be so." [11] And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. [12] And Elisha saw it and he cried, "My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw him no more.

Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces.

Again... How does this verse support that Heaven is a physical location in this universe?

Quote:

3) Matthew 17:1-3

And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. [2] And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. [3] And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

9And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, `Say to no one the VISION, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'

Quote:

4) Luke 24:36-43

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!" [37] But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. [38] And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? [39] See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." [40] And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. [41] And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" [42] They gave him a piece of broiled fish, [43] and he took it and ate before them.

NOTE: Real people with physical bodies of flesh and bone have already gone to heaven, and at least three of them-- Jesus, Moses and Elijah-- have traveled from heaven to this earth and back.

See the word VISION again. A VISION generally referred to event that's immaterial, and happening in person's mind. It should not be foreign to you, since you would use the same idea to imply that snakes is a sin.

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5) Daniel 9:20-23

While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God, [21] while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. [22] He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, "O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. [23] At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word [or command] went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.

NOTE: When Daniel began to pray, the angel Gabriel received the command of God to help Daniel understand the vision of Daniel 8. It takes about 5 minutes to pray Daniel's prayer as he recorded it. If we assume that Gabriel traveled from heaven, that would mean it takes an angel five minutes to go from heaven to this earth. Since Luke 1: 19 tells us that Gabriel "stands in the presence of God," I think it's safe to assume that Gabriel traveled directly from God's presence to Babylon. No matter where heaven is in the universe, it would have required Gabriel to travel faster than the speed of light. No doubt these verses show that heaven is a very long way indeed from earth.

[sign]... do you understand the meaning of word vision?

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6) Job 1:6-7

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. [7] The Lord said to Satan, "From where have you come?" Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." (See also Job 2: 1-7.)

How does that provide any support for your views?

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7) Rev. 12:4

His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.

You are not taking a metaphoric hyperbole and making it literal, are you?

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8) Rev. 12:7-9, 13

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, [8] but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. [9] And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world— he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him...

And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

Same as above.

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NOTE: Heaven is a real place in which there was once a "war" between the unfallen angels of Christ and the fallen angels of Satan. The wicked angels were thrown out of heaven and down onto this earth.

The question is whether it is physical place in our universe. How do you deduce that from any of the above?

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QUESTION: Are we to believe that literal creatures left a symbolic heaven to come to a literal place? Is this what the Bible means? Or does the evidence show that heaven is an actual, physical place somewhere in God's universe?

If angels are beings unseen in this universe... what does that mean to you?

Quote:

What did Jesus Himself say?

9) John 14:1-3

"Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

10) Matthew 25:34

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.'

11) Hebrews 11:16

But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

NOTE: Heaven is a prepared place! Jesus assured His disciples that He was going to heaven where He would prepare a place for them.

QUESTION: Is this prepared place merely symbolic and without any physical reality, even though a real, literal, physical Jesus promised that He would prepare a place for real, literal, physical men?

What does that mean? Can a physical 3-D body reside in that place? So far no proof that it's a physical place somewhere in Orion Galaxy.

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10) Matt. 5: 12 says, "Great is your reward in Heaven."

11) Luke 15: 7, 10-- "Joy shall be in Heaven in the presence of the angels of God."

12) Luke 10: 20-- "Rejoice, because your names are written in Heaven."

NOTE: No Bible writer ever expresses any doubt about the reality of Heaven! The evidence shows that heaven will be inhabited by literal, physical human beings, by real angels, and by the God-Man, Jesus Christ, who is a literal, physical Being.

13) Revelation 22: 14-- All citizens of heaven will be commandment-keepers.

14) 1 Cor. 13: 12-- "We shall know, even as we are known."

NOTE: In heaven the saved will recognize each other. We will be real, literal, physical beings with immortal bodies like Christ's physical body.

Explain to me how physical, real, and literal bodies can defy the laws of this universe? Will these bodies breathe? Will these bodies defecate and urinate? Will these bodies contain bacteria in intestines that will aid food digestion? Will these bodies feel pain?

You talk about these things in terms of "magical bodies" that will do all of those magical things. Yet, there's no indication that such will be the case from the Bible.

Likewise, there's no indication that God has a physical body (although He is described in terms of a metaphorical body parts, like face, hands, and etc).

In terms of etymology, "heaven" was thought to be somewhere up there. That's why it's references as heaven, because it's obviously not on Earth. But that's the language of ancients, which called bat a bird, because it flew. They named things in functional manner. They likewise described God with body parts as a poetic metaphor.

Some verses describe God as a mother hen protecting it's young. Does that mean that God has a beak and wings?

[John317]

Do you consider Daniel March to be inspired Prophet? Perhaps we should put Daniel March and plenty of other authors that she took ideas from on "Spirit of Prophecy" list?

http://hymnopedia.com/Authors:Daniel_March

Should we have any reasons to distrust, when a prophet of God borrows ideas from the authors that are largely meant to be a commentary, and then turned into "Spirit of Prophecy" by means of "written by"?

Even the Bible writers sometimes "borrowed" ideas or passages from non-inspired sources. Cases in point are Jude and Paul. Luke got most of his information from research and interviews.

The truth is true no matter whether it is from an "inspired source" or not. It doesn't require a prophet of God to make true statements.

God showed Ellen White visions and dreams, and Ellen White sometimes found that another writer had expressed exactly the idea or thought that she wanted to express.

Ellen White didn't use other people's writing indiscriminantly. She used some parts and rejected others, and she also changed the parts that she did borrow so that they took on a different significance in harmony with what Ellen White intended to say. God helped her to know which passages to select and what to reject, just as He did the Bible writers.

[Bravus]

The evidence has been posted for several days, yet you have said almost nothing about it. Neither has fccool.

See posts #482104, 482392, 482559, and 482568.

fccool has now addressed it in detail.

I have addressed it briefly, due to being very busy rather than to lack of interest.

I'm not going to address the Ellen White 'evidence'. I simply do not believe it to be compelling, for a variety of reasons, and have said so in the past. You're very welcome to post it, but will have to look to others to address it.

On the Biblical quotes, fccool has made the point well. References to the physical parts of God's body are of the same sort as a wide variety of other references in the Bible that use analogies between the known and the unknown. Saying that the electron sometimes behaves like a wave does not mean that it *is* a wave. Saying God stretches out his hand does not mean he has a hand, it means he is doing the thing - caring, compassion - that humans do when we reach out our hand to another.

This will not satisfy you, but nothing I can say besides complete capitulation will. I believe what I believe, based on the evidence I have seen, and am happy to stand up for that.

I am not saying that anyone who believes differently is wrong and damned...

[John317]

Quote:

1) Genesis 5:23-24

Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years. [24] Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

How does this verse support that Heaven is a physical location in this universe?

2) 2 Kings 2:9-12

When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Elisha said, "Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me." [10] And he said, "You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you, but if you do not see me, it shall not be so." [11] And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. [12] And Elisha saw it and he cried, "My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw him no more.

Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces.

Again... How does this verse support that Heaven is a physical location in this universe?

Enoch and Elijah are physical beings. Jesus Christ Himself is also a physical being-- a person who has flesh and bones. Same with Enoch and Elijah.

Since physical beings were taken to heaven, there's no reason to beleive that heaven is a non-physical place. All of the Bible evidence that I see leads me to believe that it is an actual, real place.

What evidence do you see which causes you to believe heaven is not a physical place?

[John317]

I'm not going to address the Ellen White 'evidence'. I simply do not believe it to be compelling, for a variety of reasons, and have said so in the past.

I am not in the least bit surprised, Bravus. It's clear that you and fccool don't believe she was a prophet of God. It's always good to know where people stand on these issues.

[John317]

(quoting): 3) Matthew 17:1-3

And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. [2] And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. [3] And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

9And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, `Say to no one the VISION, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'

NOTE: Real people with physical bodies of flesh and bone have already gone to heaven, and at least three of them-- Jesus, Moses and Elijah-- have traveled from heaven to this earth and back.

Originally Posted By: fccool

See the word VISION again. A VISION generally referred to event that's immaterial, and happening in person's mind. It should not be foreign to you, since you would use the same idea to imply that snakes is a sin.

The Greek word used here, horama, can mean a "vision," but it also means "a thing seen, a sight, appearance."

It is the same word used in Acts 7: 31 regarding the burning bush that Moses saw. "He wondered at the sight..." Stephen is not indicating that Moses didn't actually see the bush. It was real, actual.

It need not be something unreal or that did not actually happen. Notice that the NIV translates it as, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen..." Jesus is not telling them not to reveal to anyone what they had merely seen in their heads.

Thayer's English-Greek Lexicon defines horama thus: "that which is seen, a sight, spectacle; a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in sleep, a vision..."

Luke 9: 28-36 makes it clear that the Transfiguration actually happened and was not something that merely occurred in someone's head. The disciples actually heard God saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him."

Particularly notice the parallel verse of Luke 9: 36, "what they had seen," plainly indicating a real event.

All of the verbs in Matt. 17 are indicatative, which means that they are describing things that actually occurred.

For instance, the Greek words from which are translated "transfigured," "shone," "became," "appeared," "enveloped," "is," "fell," "terrified," "came," "saw,"-- all these are indicative verbs. Indicative verbs show the reality of the thing being described.

Luke 9 tells us that the disciples saw these things when they were fully awake. It leaves no doubt that they literally heard God speak and they actually saw and heard Moses and Elijah.

Luke 9:28-36

Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. [29] And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. [30] And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, [31] who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. [32] Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. [33] And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah"— not knowing what he said. [34] As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. [35] And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!" [36] And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

NOTE: the Greek words translated "what they had seen" are hon heorakan, from the word, horao. (Strongs #3708)

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon defines it as "1. to see with the eyes...." (page 451).

It is used to describe real things that are seen in the following verses:

John 1: 18, "no man has seen God..."

John 1: 34, "I saw, and bear record that..."

John 3: 11, "and testify that we have seen.."

John 3: 32, "and he hath seen and heard"

John 4: 45, "having seen all the things that he did.."

John 6: 2, "because they saw his miracles..."

John 6: 36, "you have seen me..."

John 8: 38, "I have seen with my Father...what you have seen.."

John 8: 57, "and have you seen Abraham?"

Acts 22: 15, "of what you have seen and heard..."

[John317]

[sign]... do you understand the meaning of word vision?

[sigh] Yes, but do you?

Read carefully post #483741, the one immediately above this one.

[phkrause]

Here's what the CJB says about Matt 17:1-3,9, 1 Six days later, Yeshua took Kefa, Ya`akov and his brother Yochanan and led them up a high mountain privately. 2 As they watched, he began to change form -- his face shone like the sun, and his clothing became as white as light. 3 Then they looked and saw Moshe and Eliyahu speaking with him. 9 As they came down the mountain, Yeshua ordered them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." Nothing about this being a vision. Sometimes we need to check more than one translation. For me personally I'll go with Jews translating there own Jewish/Hebrew Bible

[fccool]

PK, Gospels were written in Greek, and not Hebrew . The most literal translations will translate that word as "vision". Check YLT, and ASV.

[John317]

PK, Gospels were written in Greek, and not Hebrew . The most literal translations will translate that word as "vision". Check YLT, and ASV.

fccool, did you see the evidence presented?

The Greek word used here, horama, can mean a "vision," but it also means "a thing seen, a sight, appearance."

It is the same word used in Acts 7: 31 regarding the burning bush that Moses saw. "He wondered at the sight..." Stephen is not indicating that Moses didn't actually see the bush. It was real, actual.

Jesus is not telling them not to reveal to anyone what they had merely seen in their heads.

Thayer's English-Greek Lexicon defines horama thus: "that which is seen, a sight, spectacle; a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in sleep, a vision..."

The Greek-English Lexicon To the New Testament by W.J. Hickie defines horama as "that which is seen; a sight; a vision" (page 132).

Notice that the NIV translates it as, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen..." (See also Amplified Bible, Weymouth's NT, and many others.)

It's obvious from the entire narrative that Jesus is not talking about something that they had merely seen in their heads.

Luke 9: 28-36 also makes it clear that the Transfiguration actually happened and was not something that merely occurred in someone's head. The disciples actually heard God saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him."

Particularly notice the parallel verse of Luke 9: 36, "what they had seen," plainly indicating a real event.

All of the verbs in Matt. 17 are indicatative, which means that they are describing things that actually occurred.

For instance, the Greek words from which are translated "transfigured," "shone," "became," "appeared," "enveloped," "is," "fell," "terrified," "came," "saw,"-- all these are indicative verbs. Indicative verbs show the reality of the thing being described.

Essentials of New Testament Greek, page 12, says that "the indicative mood is that mood which confirms the reality of the action from the viewpoint of the speaker."

Another textbook on Greek grammar says the indicative mood "represents the verbal idea from the viewpoint of reality." (A Manual of the Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, page 168.)

There's nothing wrong with the use of the word "vision" in Matt. 17: 9, but if it leads a person to believe that the event was not real but was only in the mind of someone, then it would be inappropriate and inaccurate.

The narrative is clear that the writer and the disciples viewed this as a real event, not an imaginary one.

Let's review what Luke 9: 28-36 says:

1) Jesus was praying. As He was praying, the appearance of His face was changed, and His clothes became white and glistened.

2) Then suddenly there were two men talking with Jesus. These two men were Moses and Elijah.

NOTE: All of them saw and heard the two men talking with Jesus.

3) These two men appeared in glory and were talking with Jesus about His approaching crucifixion.

4) Peter, John, and James were sleepy, but when they saw the glory of Christ, Moses and Elijah, they became fully awake.

NOTE: The Greek word for "saw" in the above is eidon, translated "I have certainly SEEN the oppression.." in Acts 7: 34. It is the 2nd aorist of horao, to see.

5) The text (v. 32) says clearly that the three disciples with Jesus SAW the two men standing with Jesus.

NOTE: The writer obviously intends for the reader to believe the disciples actually saw two living men standing with Christ.

6) Peter spoke to Jesus and suggested that they build tents to stay in.

NOTE: Obviously Peter did not consider the men he saw to be immaterial spirits.

7) While Peter was saying this, a cloud came and surrounded them. All of the disciples were afraid.

NOTE: All three of the discples actually saw the cloud and the men. It was not merely in their heads.

8) All three disciples and Christ Himself heard a voice coming out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him."

9) When the 3 disciples hear this voice, they were afraid and fell on their faces.

10) Jesus touched them and told them to get up and not to be afraid.

QUESTION: On the basis of the above information, where do you see evidence that the writer intends for the reader to believe the events only occurred in the minds of the disciples and of Jesus?

[John317]

PK, Gospels were written in Greek, and not Hebrew .

Yes, and the Jewish translator of the Complete Jewish Bible knows Greek as well as Hebrew.

As I said in the previous post, there's nothing wrong with the use of the word "vision" in Matt. 17: 9, but if it leads a person to believe that the event was not real but was only in the mind of someone, then it would be inappropriate and inaccurate.

The narrative is clear that the writer and the disciples viewed this as a real event, not an imaginary one.

Aside from your view of the word "vision," what evidence do you find in the narratives themselves to show that the events only happened in the mind and were not real?

Are you saying that God did not actually say what the Gospels tell us He said in Luke 9: 35 and Matt. 17: 9?

[John317]

...Saying God stretches out his hand does not mean he has a hand, it means he is doing the thing - caring, compassion - that humans do when we reach out our hand to another.

Seventh-day Adventists don't teach that God's body, or form, is exactly like the human body. We don't know what His body looks like but we do know He has a body and body parts. The Bible is very clear about that, and the only way anyone can deny it is to reject the language of the Bible and claim it doesn't mean what it says.

Exodus 33:20-23

But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live." [21] And the Lord said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, [22] and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. [23] Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."

Jesus Christ is God, of course, and we know that Jesus is a physical being, with a body of flesh and bone. Jesus told us this in Luke 24: 39.

He rose from the dead physically. Do you believe this?

[John317]

Wondering if you believe that Jesus rose from the dead physically and that therefore He has a physical body.

Do you agree that Jesus Christ is God? If so, this of course would mean that God has a physical body.

[Bravus]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I'm not going to address the Ellen White 'evidence'. I simply do not believe it to be compelling, for a variety of reasons, and have said so in the past.

I am not in the least bit surprised, Bravus. It's clear that you and fccool don't believe she was a prophet of God. It's always good to know where people stand on these issues.

Right, and you've known for years. So perhaps now you could just accept it and stop with the snide, superior comments.

[joeb]

If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.”

Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?

God Blesses!

Was Jesus both human and divine before His incarnation?

Strong's says the verb "have seen" can be used a couple of ways.

3708 horao hor-ah'-o properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:--behold, perceive, see, take heed. see GREEK for 3700

In the full context of what Jesus is saying to Thomas it would appear to me that the "have seen" is used mentally, not physically and that is within the possible meaning of the Greek.

The Hebraism meant Thomas should have already experienced the Father by knowing Jesus, and that is clearly meant mentally, not physically. Jesus follows this up by asking Thomas, have you been around me this long and still don't know me?

To me the entire conversation puts "have seen" in the realm of having experienced, or known well enough as a person so Thomas might have clearly discerned who the Father is, not in the having physically seen realm. Also, during His entire ministry here on earth Jesus' biggest concern was with representing His Father's character correctly so that we might have a correct understanding of His Father's character and who He is. Jesus' message had never been "this is what my Father looks like".

I find it odd that in this critical instance Jesus would change His focus to making sure we might know what His Father looks like. That is inconsequential to our salvation as what He looks like has nothing to do with His character, how much He loves us, how He treats us, who He is, etc....

[skyblue888]

Was Jesus both human and divine before His incarnation?

joeb

___________

Of course not he was always human.

Please forgive my being a little sarcastic here.

sky

[joeb]

Was Jesus both human and divine before His incarnation?

joeb

___________

Of course not he was always human.

Please forgive my being a little sarcastic here.

sky

I don't know who you directed your sarcasm at, but if it was me, you missed the point of the question. Of course Jesus didn't always have a human body. That's the point of the question when saying the verb "have seen" has dual meanings.

[phkrause]

PK, Gospels were written in Greek, and not Hebrew . The most literal translations will translate that word as "vision". Check YLT, and ASV.

Sorry about that, my bad. When I was posting that I was thinking about the whole Bible, I forgot that the NT was written in Greek and Aramaic. I always forget that, because it is still written by Jews, except of course Luke. So when I wrote Jewish, Hebrew I should've added Greek and Aramaic. And as far as I'm concerned the CJB is the most literal translation. Having been translated by a Jew who happens to know the way Jews think a lot more than Protestants or maybe non Jews is a better term to use.

[John317]

I'm not going to address the Ellen White 'evidence'. I simply do not believe it to be compelling, for a variety of reasons, and have said so in the past.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

I am not in the least bit surprised, Bravus. It's clear that you and fccool don't believe she was a prophet of God. It's always good to know where people stand on these issues.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Right, and you've known for years. So perhaps now you could just accept it and stop with the snide, superior comments.

Actually, I never saw before where you admitted you reject Ellen White as a prophet of God. You've always made it appear that the reason you don't want to consider her writings is that you are standing by what she said about only accepting the Bible as the standard. A case in point is your reason above for not considering her-- that her writing on the topic "is not compelling for a variety of reasons."

You've made it appear that you felt you alone were doing what Ellen White said we should do in the matter of "the Bible alone." You did not say that the reason was that you reject her as a genuine prophet of God.

I was very serious in my posting, Bravus. I meant nothing either snide or "superior." I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, though. That was not the intention. My only intention was to tell the truth, which is what I did do.

[John317]

...To me the entire conversation puts "have seen" in the realm of having experienced, or known well enough as a person so Thomas might have clearly discerned who the Father is, not in the having physically seen realm. Also, during His entire ministry here on earth Jesus' biggest concern was with representing His Father's character correctly so that we might have a correct understanding of His Father's character and who He is. Jesus' message had never been "this is what my Father looks like".

I agree. Jesus was obviously not talking about seeing the Father with the physical eyes.

[John317]

Was Jesus both human and divine before His incarnation?

Absolutely not.

[fccool]

Are Jesus and Father humanoid beings that fly through space prior incarnation?

[ClubV12]

Since God created "space" where did He "fly" before there was such a thing?

[fccool]

That's only a part of the question that I've asked.

If God has a body and shape, what was shape of Jesus prior to incarnation, what's shape of Holy Spirit (since God is a Spirit as described in the Bible)?