Adventist View of God Quiz

[John317]

Bible evidence that there is a literal throne in heaven which is located in a literal sanctuary:

1) Hebrews 8:1-5

Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, [2] a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man....[5] They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain."

2) Hebrews 9:23-24

Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [24] For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

3) Hebrews 9:9

[The earthly sanctuary service] "(which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper..."

NOTE: the earthly sanctuary was a symbol, or copy, of the REAL things that are in heaven. Christ, a real human being with a human body, has entered into this true, real place. This real human being, Christ, is in the presence of God the Father on our behalf.

4) Hebrews 9:12

"[Christ] entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption."

5) Acts 2:30-36

Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, [31] he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. [32] This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. [33] Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. [34] For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

" 'The Lord said to my Lord,

Sit at my right hand,

[35] until I make your enemies your footstool.'

[36] Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

6)Acts 7:56

And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

NOTE: Stephen saw the man Christ Jesus in heaven and standing at the right hand of God.

7) Hebrews 2:14,17

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, .... [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

8) Rev. 4:1-11

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." [2] At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. [3] And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. [4] Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. [5] From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, [6] and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.

And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: [7] the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. [8] And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,

"Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,

who was and is and is to come!"

[9] And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, [10] the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

[11] "Worthy are you, our Lord and God,

to receive glory and honor and power,

for you created all things,

and by your will they existed and were created."

9)Rev. 5:1-14

Then I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals. [2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?" [3] And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, [4] and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. [5] And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."

[6] And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. [7] And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. [8] And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [9] And they sang a new song, saying,

"Worthy are you to take the scroll

and to open its seals,

for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God

from every tribe and language and people and nation,

[10] and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,

and they shall reign on the earth."

[11] Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, [12] saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" [13] And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" [14] And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.

10)Isaiah 6:1-3

In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. [2] Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. [3] And one called to another and said:

"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;

the whole earth is full of his glory!"

11) Daniel 7:9-10

As I looked,

thrones were placed,

and the Ancient of days took his seat;

his clothing was white as snow,

and the hair of his head like pure wool;

his throne was fiery flames;

its wheels were burning fire.

[10] A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

12) Daniel 7:13-14

I saw in the night visions,

and behold, with the clouds of heaven

there came one like a son of man,

and he came to the Ancient of Days

and was presented before him.

[14] And to him was given dominion

and glory and a kingdom,

that all peoples, nations, and languages

should serve him;

his dominion is an everlasting dominion,

which shall not pass away,

and his kingdom one

that shall not be destroyed.

13) Rev. 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

14) Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

15) Rev. 21:5

And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

16)Rev. 22:1-3

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb [2] through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. [3] No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

[BobRyan]

Lots of confusion here on the part of both Bob and John317 between 'literal', 'real' and 'physical'. I am not saying God is not real and literal - he is both. Indeed, as C.S. Lewis has noted, the spiritual world is *more* real than the physical world.

So I'm not saying God is not real, I'm saying he is not physical.

Meanwhile we are PROVING that the Bible states otherwise and you are simply ignoring the texts that do not support your speculation.

The hint in this case is that the non-God beings of Dan 7 and the non-God building mentioned in Heb 8 and the "I GO TO the Father" statement of John 14 where going to the Father is not "Staying here with you" all require physical locality for those non-God components to the point of Christ "really leaving" and the Angels really being in the real literal courtroom where God really takes his seat.

Time after Time - OT and NT writers state that they "SAW GOD".

You are attempting a stand-on-its-head proof-text model with 1Tim 6 saying that God is invisible to us on earth -- as if even the angels do not see Christ, do not see the Father where Christ is seated at His right hand!.

If you allow the Angels and Jesus to be physical then the same physical extensions "seated at His right hand" and "I GO to the Father" - apply to God the Father. That His physical presence is indeed manifest with locality so that He can be physically with those physical beings and places.

Note also in the book of Exodus - Christ BEFORE the incarnation has physicality - He tells Moses to remove His shoes for the place that He stands is holy Ground.

He tells Moses that he cannot be seen by Moses for Moses would die if He saw Him in his glory.

He says He meets Moses "Face to Face" when talking to Aaron and Miriam about Moses' relationship to God.

Here are the points were reason demands that we admit to the physicality and location of God manifest in literal physical form.

This is not to say that the infinite is not also omni-present Spirit. It is merely stating the both-AND aspect of God - instead of the either-OR problem you are speculating.

Some people object to these Bible statements because they support the Adventist teaching on the Sanctuary "rooms" and they support the message God gave Ellen White about God having a real literal form. Be that as it may - the Bible statements are still compelling.

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

Not ignoring. Having a life. Working on assignments and reading students' papers. Playing a computer game. Hanging out with the family.

Almost all of the texts cited can be explained in terms of either (a) metaphors as human authors, albeit inspired, tried to capture the infinite in finite tems their audiences could understand - *of course* a King must have a throne - or ( incidences in which an infinite God chose to manifest himself in visible form to interact with physical human beings.

I'm not saying God *cannot* be physical and visible, just that that is not his default and truest nature. He's infinite, he can be anything, from a still small voice to a pillar of cloud/fire to a being who looks like a man and walks and talks like a man. But the simple fact that he has, in the Bible, taken each of these forms, means that none of them represents his 'usual' form.

The incarnation is a mystery, and the nature and extent of the Father, Son and Spirit is something beyond us.

I'm not sure, though, how dogmatic it makes sense to get about a Father who is limited to one small corner of a vast universe while being completely comfortable with an invisible Spirit who fills the entire universe. In that sense, how does God not fill the entire universe.

These are matters about which we are all to some extent speculating and it pays not to be too dogmatic.

My understanding is based on a number of scriptures, including some of those cited above to support a different viewpoint. There are acts of interpretation involved in all reading of scripture, even if some seem unable to recognise their own interpretive acts.

It pays not to be dogmatic, and in particular not to seek to fit an infinite God into finite human boxes. God is beyond us and beyond our understanding, and it makes little sense to die on the hills of the differences between our tiny fragments of knowledge.

It's the blind men and the infinite elephant: my trunk, your tusk, all part of the whole elephant and far short of the whole.

[Bravus]

God tells Moses at the burning bush, and again at Sinai, that Moses cannot see him and live, but earlier stands chatting in human form with Abraham outside his tent. God has many forms and uses them for many purposes. This is scriptural...

[fccool]

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:23)

But who is able to build Him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain Him? (2 Chronicles 2:6)

Much of the "support" for these things are being pulled out of symbolic and poetic books, which described visions and dreams. To take these as literal reality is both ignorant and naive.

On top of that, the idea that Jesus and God sit on the throne somewhere for thousands of years, and that Christ in 1844 entered some compartment in literal temple located somewhere in the stars far far away, and he is performing some ritualistic cleansing ... is likewise ignorant of the types and metaphors, and naive, in terms of who God is, and the need of him to perform such meaningless tasks that only give symbolic meaning to humans.

[CoAspen]

I agree with ideas of Bravus and fccool. We seem to be stuck on ignoring the symbolic nature /representation of a 'throne'. The question is 'Why is that important?'. Further more, who make the decision of what is symbolic or literal, when it comes to the Bible?

Is this another exercise in making the Bible into something it is not meant to be? Throne or oval office, does it change the power of this being? Does it change anything at all about who/what God might be? And finally, what impact does it have on salvation for the believer???

[John317]

God tells Moses at the burning bush, and again at Sinai, that Moses cannot see him and live, but earlier stands chatting in human form with Abraham outside his tent. God has many forms and uses them for many purposes. This is scriptural...

When God stood chatting with Abraham, His glory was hidden. What He tells Moses has to do with seeing God in His full glory.

Even one angel's glory was enough to cause the soldier's at Christ's tomb to fall down as if they were dead.

[John317]

the idea that Jesus and God sit on the throne somewhere for thousands of years, and that Christ in 1844 entered some compartment in literal temple located somewhere in the stars far far away, and he is performing some ritualistic cleansing ... is likewise ignorant of the types and metaphors, and naive, in terms of who God is, and the need of him to perform such meaningless tasks that only give symbolic meaning to humans.

The Investigative Judgment and Christ's High Priestly ministry are not meaningless tasks.

No one can believe what's said above and at the same time believe in the Investigative Judgment or in Christ as our mediator in the heavenly sanctuary.

[John317]

And finally, what impact does it have on salvation for the believer???

It makes a world of difference if a person believes he cannot know what Christ and the Father are doing or if he believes that there is an Investigative Judgment going on right now in a literal heavenly sanctuary.

What do you believe Christ and God the Father are doing in heaven at this time? How do you envision it in your mind's eye on the basis of what God has revealed to us?

What happened in heaven in Oct. 1844?

[John317]

Much of the "support" for these things are being pulled out of symbolic and poetic books, which described visions and dreams. To take these as literal reality is both ignorant and naive.

Sure, but are you telling us that nothing in those books is literal or real?

For instance, Revelation speaks of Jesus as a lamb. We know that the lamb is symbolic, but the symbol represents a real person. Jesus Himself is not a symbol.

God also is not a symbol but He's a real, literal Person-- just as real and literal as Jesus is.

Are we to believe that a literal God and a literal Christ have only a symbolic throne in a symbolic sanctuary?

There's a judgment scene in the book of Daniel 7. Is that scene all symbolic? What about the real beings who are described as taking part in the decision-making?

[Bravus]

Aaaah, it all becomes clear. Have to admit, it wasn't even an issue I was thinking about, but now I can totally see why this issue is defended so vehemently: because without Jesus walking from one literal room to another in 1844, the IJ is in trouble.

Two points in relation to that:

1. There's actually no problem with that in the view I'm proposing, since Jesus is in a human body since the incarnation and is therefor physical and visible and needs rooms and locations. He's in a glorified body, with whatever that means, but the immortal, infinite God views does not, in itself, break the IJ.

2. I had not been thinking in those terms at all, so my view on this is *not* an attempt to challenge the IJ, or anything like it. It's my honest attempt to understand the God revealed in the Bible and the world.

[John317]

Aaaah, it all becomes clear. Have to admit, it wasn't even an issue I was thinking about, but now I can totally see why this issue is defended so vehemently: because without Jesus walking from one literal room to another in 1844, the IJ is in trouble.

It isn't a matter of Jesus walking from one literal room to another.

That would be like explaining the typical Day of Atonement by saying that throughout the year, the priest goes into one room, but at the end of the year, he goes into another room.

Somehow that description doesn't do justice to the significance of the events, and neither does your description do justice to what is going on in heaven today.

Do you believe that we are living now in the antitypical Day of Atonement?

What practical difference does it really make whether Jesus is in one section of the heavenly sanctuary or whether He's in another?

[John317]

...He's in a glorified body, with whatever that means, but the immortal, infinite God views does not, in itself, break the IJ...

You're absolutely right. There's no disagreement here. SDAs believe that God is immortal and infinite. We also believe Christ Himself is immortal and infinite.

[John317]

Aaaah, it all becomes clear. Have to admit, it wasn't even an issue I was thinking about, but now I can totally see why this issue is defended so vehemently:

OK, but in view of the history of our church, I would have thought this would have occurred to you before. Can you see its relevancy?

I mean, can you see why there's an important relationship between what we believe on these things and our views of the pre-Advent Judgment?

If a person believes that everything is all symbol, it has a great influence on other important beliefs and practices. It is not merely theoretical.

[John317]

... the idea that Jesus and God sit on the throne somewhere for thousands of years, ... is likewise ignorant of the types and metaphors, and naive,....

The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus and God sit on a throne for thousands of years. That's not what the SDA church teaches.

There's a real, literal throne there, but there's also a lot of activity and work being done in heaven. Christ is not merely sitting inactively on a throne somewhere. You are totally right about that.

Based on what you've studied since becoming an SDA, what do you believe Jesus and the Father have been doing during the last 2 thousand years? And what have they been doing in particular since 1844? How is their activity different after 1844 as opposed to what they were doing before?

[John317]

Next question:

2) Is heaven a physical location somewhere far away in our physical universe?

What can we learn from the Bible about this?

The Bible teaches that when Christ returns to the earth, both the resurrected saints and the living righteous will meet Christ in the air and go with Him to heaven. These people will have real, physical bodies, similar to Christ's body.

Christ was raised physically and literally from the grave. See John 2: 19-21; 20: 24-29; Luke 24: 3, 39-43; Acts 1: 2-11; 2: 23-33.

The Bible says, "Christ's flesh did not see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses." The next verse says that this same physical Jesus-- not an invisible spirit-- has been exalted to the right hand of God.

QUESTION: Is there any biblical reason to think that real, literal, physical beings would go to a non-physical, symbolic heaven that is not located anywhere in the physical universe?

Consider the Bible evidence:

1) Genesis 5:23-24

Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years. [24] Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

2) 2 Kings 2:9-12

When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Elisha said, "Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me." [10] And he said, "You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you, but if you do not see me, it shall not be so." [11] And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. [12] And Elisha saw it and he cried, "My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw him no more.

Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces.

3) Matthew 17:1-3

And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. [2] And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. [3] And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

4) Luke 24:36-43

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!" [37] But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. [38] And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? [39] See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." [40] And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. [41] And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" [42] They gave him a piece of broiled fish, [43] and he took it and ate before them.

NOTE: Real people with physical bodies of flesh and bone have already gone to heaven, and at least three of them-- Jesus, Moses and Elijah-- have traveled from heaven to this earth and back.

5) Daniel 9:20-23

While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God, [21] while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. [22] He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, "O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. [23] At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word [or command] went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.

NOTE: When Daniel began to pray, the angel Gabriel received the command of God to help Daniel understand the vision of Daniel 8. It takes about 5 minutes to pray Daniel's prayer as he recorded it. If we assume that Gabriel traveled from heaven, that would mean it takes an angel five minutes to go from heaven to this earth. Since Luke 1: 19 tells us that Gabriel "stands in the presence of God," I think it's safe to assume that Gabriel traveled directly from God's presence to Babylon. No matter where heaven is in the universe, it would have required Gabriel to travel faster than the speed of light. No doubt these verses show that heaven is a very long way indeed from earth.

6) Job 1:6-7

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. [7] The Lord said to Satan, "From where have you come?" Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." (See also Job 2: 1-7.)

7) Rev. 12:4

His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.

8) Rev. 12:7-9, 13

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, [8] but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. [9] And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world— he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him...

And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

NOTE: Heaven is a real place in which there was once a "war" between the unfallen angels of Christ and the fallen angels of Satan. The wicked angels were thrown out of heaven and down onto this earth.

QUESTION: Are we to believe that literal creatures left a symbolic heaven to come to a literal place? Is this what the Bible means? Or does the evidence show that heaven is an actual, physical place somewhere in God's universe?

What did Jesus Himself say?

9) John 14:1-3

"Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

10) Matthew 25:34

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.'

11) Hebrews 11:16

But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

NOTE: Heaven is a prepared place! Jesus assured His disciples that He was going to heaven where He would prepare a place for them.

QUESTION: Is this prepared place merely symbolic and without any physical reality, even though a real, literal, physical Jesus promised that He would prepare a place for real, literal, physical men?

10) Matt. 5: 12 says, "Great is your reward in Heaven."

11) Luke 15: 7, 10-- "Joy shall be in Heaven in the presence of the angels of God."

12) Luke 10: 20-- "Rejoice, because your names are written in Heaven."

NOTE: No Bible writer ever expresses any doubt about the reality of Heaven! The evidence shows that heaven will be inhabited by literal, physical human beings, by real angels, and by the God-Man, Jesus Christ, who is a literal, physical Being.

13) Revelation 22: 14-- All citizens of heaven will be commandment-keepers.

14) 1 Cor. 13: 12-- "We shall know, even as we are known."

NOTE: In heaven the saved will recognize each other. We will be real, literal, physical beings with immortal bodies like Christ's physical body.

[John317]

3) [is] there a good chance that heaven is located somewhere in the region Orion's belt constellation?

There is no biblical evidence about this topic, but there is strong evidence for it in the writings of Ellen White. Her statements about it do not contradict the Bible in any way:

Quote:

Dark heavy clouds came up, and clashed against each other. The atmosphere parted and rolled back; then we could look up through the open space in Orion, whence came the voice of God. The holy city will come down through that open space. {CET 111.2}

Dark, heavy clouds came up and clashed against each other. The atmosphere parted and rolled back. Then we could look up through the open space in Orion, whence came the voice of God.--EW 41 (1851). {LDE 272.1}

"Seek Him that maketh the Pleiades and Orion,

And turneth the shadow of death into the morning,

And maketh the day dark with night;"

"He that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind,

And declareth unto man what is His thought;"

"He that buildeth His spheres in the heaven,

And hath founded His arch [Noyes's translation]

in the earth;"

"He that calleth for the waters of the sea,

And poureth them out upon the face of the earth;

Jehovah is His name."

Amos 5:8, A.R.V.; 4:13, A.R.V.;

9:6, margin; 9:6, A.R.V. {MH413.2}

Here the ministers of righteousness are symbolized by the seven stars, which the First and the Last has under his special care and protection. The Lord Jesus Christ is acquainted with the number of the stars. He calls them by their names, binds the sweet influence of Pleiades, and looses the bands of Orion. The ministers of the gospel of Christ are greater blessings to the church than are the stars to our world. All are in God's hand. He directs their motions. He disposes of them in their different orbs in their positions. He fills them with light and influence. He supports them, else they would soon be falling stars. They are instruments in his hands, and all the good they do is done by his hand and by his Spirit's power. {RH, May 31, 1887 par. 4}

Through Amos the message of the Lord to Israel was: "Seek ye me, and ye shall live: but seek not Beth-el, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beer-sheba: for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, and Beth-el shall come to naught. Seek the Lord, and ye shall live. . . . Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name." Amos 5:4-8.

[John317]

4) God has literal body-parts, and "in the image of God" refers to not merely Character, but the physical aspects of God.

This is true both of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, although the word "character" is misused here. ["Character" refers to the results of experience and the choices humans make.]

"Physical" I take to be "form." God the Father does have a body or form, but I don't believe any SDA thinks God's body consists of physical material such as man's flesh.

There are many Bible texts which refer to God's body and parts.

Exodus 33:20-23

"But," [Yahweh] said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live." [21] And the Lord said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, [22] and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. [23] Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."

NOTE: The Lord says that He has a "face," a "hand," and "back."

We have no idea what these look like, but we do know that He has parts that are in some way similar to ours.

Compare this with the following statements by Ellen White:

Quote:

I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." Before the throne I saw the Advent people--the church and the world. I saw two companies, one bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the other stood uninterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus; then He would look to His Father, and appear to be pleading with Him. A light would come from the Father to the Son and from the Son to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. But few would receive this great light. Many came out from under it and immediately resisted it; others were careless and did not cherish the light, and it moved off from them. Some cherished it, and went and bowed down with the little praying company. This company all received the light and rejoiced in it, and their countenances shone with its glory. {EW 54.2}

I saw the Father rise from the throne, [sEE PAGE 92.] and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. EW 54, 55

5. On page 55, I stated that a cloud of glorious light covered the Father and that His person could not be seen. I also stated that I saw the Father rise from the throne. The Father was enshrouded with a body of light and glory, so that His person could not be seen; yet I knew that it was the Father and that from His person emanated this light and glory. When I saw this body of light and glory rise from the throne, I knew it was because the Father moved, therefore said, I saw the Father rise. The glory, or excellency, of His form I never saw; no one could behold it and live; yet the body of light and glory that enshrouded His person could be seen. {EW 92.1}

Quote:

I have often seen the lovely Jesus, that He is a person. I asked Him if His Father was a person and had a form like Himself. Said Jesus, "I am in the express image of My Father's person." {EW 77.1}

I have often seen that the spiritual view took away all the glory of heaven, and that in many minds the throne of David and the lovely person of Jesus have been burned up in the fire of Spiritualism. I have seen that some who have been deceived and led into this error will be brought out into the light of truth, but it will be almost impossible for them to get entirely rid of the deceptive power of Spiritualism. Such should make thorough work in confessing their errors and leaving them forever.

I recommend to you, dear reader, the Word of God as the rule of your faith and practice. By that Word we are to be judged. God has, in that Word, promised to give visions in the "last days"; not for a new rule of faith, but for the comfort of His people, and to correct those who err from Bible truth. Thus God dealt with Peter when He was about to send him to preach to the Gentiles. (Acts 10.) {EW 77,78}

Quote:

From the first dawn of reason, the human mind should become intelligent in regard to the physical structure. Here Jehovah has given a specimen of Himself, for man was made in the image of God. {CG 103.2}

All heaven took a deep and joyful interest in the creation of the world and of Adam and Eve. Human beings were a distinct order. They were made “in the image of God,” and it was the Creator’s design that they should populate the earth. They were to live in close communion with heaven, receiving and assimilating power from the great Source of power. Upheld by God, they were to live sinless lives. {CTr 19.3}

And can it be that man, made in the image of God, endowed with reason and speech, shall alone be unappreciative of His gifts and disobedient to His will? Shall rational beings alone cause confusion in our world? COL 82

[phkrause]

Great posts John

[fccool]

Quote:

There is no biblical evidence about this topic, but there is strong evidence for it in the writings of Ellen White. Her statements about it do not contradict the Bible in any way:

Sure, neither the idea that heaven is in extra-dimension, or that Jesus had a large birthmark under his right arm.

If we go about making up things that we don't know, we can come up with all sorts of stuff in terms of what we believe.

[John317]

Quote:

There is no biblical evidence about this topic, but there is strong evidence for it in the writings of Ellen White. Her statements about it do not contradict the Bible in any way:

Sure, neither the idea that heaven is in extra-dimension, or that Jesus had a large birthmark under his right arm.

If we go about making up things that we don't know, we can come up with all sorts of stuff in terms of what we believe.

Do you consider the writings of Ellen White as "making things up"?

[phkrause]

Sure, neither the idea that heaven is in extra-dimension, or that Jesus had a large birthmark under his right arm.

If we go about making up things that we don't know, we can come up with all sorts of stuff in terms of what we believe.

So who's making things up? EGW or us??

[LifeHiscost]

4) God has literal body-parts, and "in the image of God" refers to not merely Character, but the physical aspects of God

I've never bought into anything just because it was taught at a church I attended. I've always studied out everything I believe for myself. Since my conversion I've always taken the Bible's advice and studied for myself. I'm a Berean at heart. Some things I've studied to a far greater degree than others because I had a much greater degree of interest in them personally, but everything I firmly believe in I've studied out for myself.

4. This is, to me, a non-salvational issue so I haven't given it a lot thought. The creation story implies the use of hands, but it isn't the only possible explanation. A person who can speak things into existence doesn't require hands to form something out of clay. From the Bible I don't see enough evidence to make a clear case for me to have firm belief either way.

[LifeHiscost]

Historically speaking, SDAs have never blindly accepted what was taught from the pulpit. We have always studied things out for ourselves. This is why SDAs have so many distinctive doctrines.

People came out of other denominations to start the SDA church because they could not stay in a denomination which taught unBiblical doctrines. Following Biblical truth was mission in life and they could not help but to follow the truth. This is a long-standing SDA tradition. The majority of SDAs I know would not go to their pastor to ask what to believe about a doctrine. They would go straight to the Bible to find out for themselves.

I've never heard an SDA pastor say anyone that they must take the pastor's word for anything along the lines of doctrine. Every pastor I've known has encouraged self-study. This is why asking what is taught from the pulpit is sort of meaningless to many of us. We hear something we question and we go to the Bible and SOP and study it out for ourselves. If we find it to be true we accept it. If we find it to be unBiblical we reject it.

God blesses!

[John317]

.... as yet you have still not presented your own evidence. This is a common approach of yours. How about it? You claim to have it, let's see it.

The evidence has been posted for several days, yet you have said almost nothing about it. Neither has fccool.

See posts #482104, 482392, 482559, and 482568.

Let's talk about the Bible evidence primarily, but also about Ellen White's positions on these topics since she's so important to the SDA church.