EGW identified in Malachi 4

[miz3]

I think cheddar makes some good points that cannot just be sloughed off.

There is no "balance" to those who take all of Ellen White's writings as being inspired.

To then in addition call Ellen White the Elijah of Malachi chapter four is clearly "unbalanced". That is not "balance" that is "fanaticism".

Unfortunately all too many SDA are indeed fanatical about Ellen White and her writings. That is why the SDA Church is struggling. The longer time goes on the more hurtful this fanatical stance in regard to Ellen White will hurt SDA.

Malachi chapter four is NOT A REFERENCE TO ELLEN WHITE. That is just silly.

[ClubV12]

Oh there is no question Malachi is referrencing Ellen White, the question is, is he also referrencing John the Baptist?

Yeah, I think he is. Ellen White was not much different than any other prophet who walked the face of this earth. Godly men and women, who, like all of us, was in a process of sanctification, learning, growing, making their fair share of mistakes along the way in the personal life. With one major difference from the rest of us, they had divine revelations from God in most profound ways.

This is reality, not fanatcism. Your point could be applied equally to those that believe the bible is inspired, by calling such believers "fanatics".

Curious, who do you think Malachi is referrencing in chapter four, miz3? A prophet that HAS come and gone or a prophet YET to appear?

[miz3]

Oh there is no question Malachi is referrencing Ellen White, the question is, is he also referrencing John the Baptist?

Yeah, I think he is. Ellen White was not much different than any other prophet who walked the face of this earth. Godly men and women, who, like all of us, was in a process of sanctification, learning, growing, making their fair share of mistakes along the way in the personal life. With one major difference from the rest of us, they had divine revelations from God in most profound ways.

This is reality, not fanatcism. Your point could be applied equally to those that believe the bible is inspired, by calling such believers "fanatics".

Curious, who do you think Malachi is referrencing in chapter four, miz3? A prophet that HAS come and gone or a prophet YET to appear?

It is not Ellen White that is for sure. There is nothing in that text that fits Ellen White.

Sorry but Ellen White is not even close, in fact Ellen White is so far removed from this text that she is not even in the discussion.

[ClubV12]

You offer nothing in your statement but a negative, nothing to offer this discussion, nothing to even consider, just background noise.

[miz3]

You offer nothing in your statement but a negative, nothing to offer this discussion, nothing to even consider, just background noise.

It is clearly better than the silliness that you are offering.

What you are offering is not better than for anyone to assert that Billy Graham is the Elijah. In fact a better case could be made for Billy Graham as Elijah than for Ellen White.

[ClubV12]

Malachi 4, verse 1

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

I think this is an obvious referrence to the second coming. If some see it as some other occurence, submit your interpretation that we may reason it out.

Verse 5:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:"

Have we seen such a prophet, past, present, future, who came in the spirit of Elijah? To understand this verse we need to understand the circumstances and work of Elijah himself. What HE was called to do, HOW he did that, WHAT his purpose was. The "spirit of Elijah" is obvious as the Lord would not literally send Elijah again.

There are two prophets who fit this scenario, of the type of work Elijah performed and under similiar apostasy conditions, John the Baptist and Ellen White, at least. Are there more prophets who might be considered for this position, or not?

[miz3]

Malachi 4, verse 1

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

I think this is an obvious referrence to the second coming. If some see it as some other occurence, submit your interpretation that we may reason it out.

Verse 5:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:"

Have we seen such a prophet, past, present, future, who came in the spirit of Elijah? To understand this verse we need to understand the circumstances and work of Elijah himself. What HE was called to do, HOW he did that, WHAT his purpose was. The "spirit of Elijah" is obvious as the Lord would not literally send Elijah again.

There are two prophets who fit this scenario, of the type of work Elijah performed and under similiar apostasy conditions, John the Baptist and Ellen White, at least. Are there more prophets who might be considered for this position, or not?

Like I said Billy Graham fits this text better than Ellen White.

[cheddar]

Two prophets are mentioned in Rev. chapter 11 that is as long as you don't see them as books.

One of them could easily fit the Elijah type.

Verse six even references the days of Elijah when it didn't rain for 3 1/2 years.

[ClubV12]

I've never heard ANYONE refer to Billy Graham as a prophet! But even so, he immediately fails the test of a prophet that must be applied to anyone making such a claim. Therefore, Billy Graham could not be seriously considered.

[miz3]

I've never heard ANYONE refer to Billy Graham as a prophet! But even so, he immediately fails the test of a prophet that must be applied to anyone making such a claim. Therefore, Billy Graham could not be seriously considered.

Fits Malachi chapter four better than Ellen White.

[ClubV12]

Malachi four refers to a PROPHET, not a preacher, not a teacher, not a good and Godly man, not "books", but a PROPHET.

Now, if you don't accept Ellen White as a prophet, your confusion is obvious and understandable.

[cheddar]

Ellen White had a keen sense of hummor. In my life and writings of Ellen G. White class at college the professor told how he read in her diarys that there were some churches where she was not welcomed because they felt that all their laughing and jokeing was inapproprate. Photos in those days were often blury so they needed to have serious looking faces and I have heard from a few sources that Mrs. White hated needing to have the serious look for the photos instead of smiling. When she died many of her non-adventist neighbors kept getting back in the line for viewing her body, they said that they wanted to see one more time the face of the pleasant lady who loved to tell them about Jesus.

I did not know this, thanks for sharing.

Definitely makes her more human and not such a robot.

[phkrause]

What you are offering is not better than for anyone to assert that Billy Graham is the Elijah. In fact a better case could be made for Billy Graham as Elijah than for Ellen White.

Now that's foolishness, BG doesn't even except the right day as the Sabbath.

[Parade Orange]

CHEDDER i agree!

hooray 4 more human

in the beginning of her work it was LAW and do this and do that!

all filtered thru methodist mindset and even fear caused her to turn to GOD as a youngin

by the end it was all about the LOVE OF JESUS!

she grew!

[John317]

Here's some very interesting and relevant information on historicism, with some reference to Joachim of Floris:

From the wikipedia,

Quote:

Early historical interpretations

Prophetic commentaries in the early church were often partial or incomplete, usually interpreting individual passages rather than entire books. The earliest complete commentary on the book of Revelation was carried out by Victorinus in 300 AD, considered to be one of the earliest Historicist commentators. An overview of the various prophetic expositions from the third century to the fifth centuries demonstrates that prophecies were uniformly interpreted within a Historicist framework by the Latin (later Catholic) writers.

Looking to the future fulfillment of certain prophetic passages, Christian theologians concluded that the events of Biblical prophecy (especially as contained in the books of Daniel and Revelation) encompassed the entire Church Age from the ascension of Christ to his second advent.

Throughout the medieval era the Historicist interpretation became increasingly modified and developed by the expositions of Andreas, Primasius (both 6th century), Bede (730 AD), Anspert, Arethas, Haymo, and Berengaud (all of the ninth century).

Historicism up to the Reformation

This broad form of Historicism held sway in Christianity from the 4th Century until the Reformation. Prefiguring the revolt that was about to come, the 10th century the Catholic bishop Arnulf of Orleans was the first to apply the 'man of sin' prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 to the papacy. The same interpretation was given by the Catholic abbot Joachim of Floris in 1190[8] and the archbishop Eberhard II in 1240.

Out of the Reformation and Counter Reformation, Reformers and Catholics devised different schemes of interpretation, which they each used to claim that the other was the apostate church. From the Reformers arose the the historicist paradigm. As such, the Pro-Catholic positions took root when the Jesuit Doctor of Theology, Francisco Ribera[10] proposed Futurism in 1590, as well as the Spanish Jesuit Luis de Alcazar who proposed Preterism.[11][12] [13][14]

[edit] Protestant historicist interpretations

Common features of Reformationist Historicist interpretations which makes them controversial are the identification of the Antichrist (1 and 2 John), the Beast (Revelation 13), the Man of Sin or Man of Lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2) , the "Little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8, and the Whore of Babylon (Revelation 17) with the Roman Catholic Church, the Papal system and each successive Pope himself (a common position held by Protestants in the Reformation, which is not prevalent today). Such an identification, however, is not unique to post-Reformation historicism. It has not been held by all historicists, and has been and is currently held by some futurists, including many traditional dispensationalists, and even in modified form by some restorationist Sedevacantist Catholics.

[John317]

Ellen White had a keen sense of hummor. In my life and writings of Ellen G. White class at college the professor told how he read in her diarys that there were some churches where she was not welcomed because they felt that all their laughing and jokeing was inapproprate. Photos in those days were often blury so they needed to have serious looking faces and I have heard from a few sources that Mrs. White hated needing to have the serious look for the photos instead of smiling. When she died many of her non-adventist neighbors kept getting back in the line for viewing her body, they said that they wanted to see one more time the face of the pleasant lady who loved to tell them about Jesus.

Originally Posted By: cheddar

I did not know this, thanks for sharing.

Definitely makes her more human and not such a robot.

Have you read any good biographies of her? There are many excellent ones. Arthur White's multivolume biography is probably the best, and certainly the most comprehensive. In those books, she comes alive and you see her as a real human being.

[cheddar]

Whether I like Ellen White or not is irrelevant.

She is not the 3rd Elijah prophesied by Malachi chap. 4 (the 2nd Elijah being John Baptist)

The 3rd Elijah shows up just prior to the ‘day of the Lord’. This person belongs to the last generation of planet earth. Ellen White has long since passed so she does not fit, and even if she were raised up in a special resurrection that’s not what the verse is saying. This person plays a major role in the last days so showing up at the very end does not qualify.

[John317]

Whether I like Ellen White or not is irrelevant.

What's relevant is understanding her prophetic ministry.

[miz3]

Malachi four refers to a PROPHET, not a preacher, not a teacher, not a good and Godly man, not "books", but a PROPHET.

Now, if you don't accept Ellen White as a prophet, your confusion is obvious and understandable.

He may not claimed to be a prophet and God could have called to be such and Billy Graham did what God wanted.

I believe Ellen White never called herself a prophet but you SDA "just say" she is.

Whatever you say about Ellen White also goes for Billy Graham.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Ellen White had a keen sense of hummor. In my life and writings of Ellen G. White class at college the professor told how he read in her diarys that there were some churches where she was not welcomed because they felt that all their laughing and jokeing was inapproprate. Photos in those days were often blury so they needed to have serious looking faces and I have heard from a few sources that Mrs. White hated needing to have the serious look for the photos instead of smiling. When she died many of her non-adventist neighbors kept getting back in the line for viewing her body, they said that they wanted to see one more time the face of the pleasant lady who loved to tell them about Jesus.

Originally Posted By: cheddar

I did not know this, thanks for sharing.

Definitely makes her more human and not such a robot.

Have you read any good biographies of her? There are many excellent ones. Arthur White's multivolume biography is probably the best, and certainly the most comprehensive. In those books, she comes alive and you see her as a real human being.

Of course he is the grandson. It is not an "objective view".

Didn't he have to leave the "Estate" under "cloudy" circumstances for covering up and lying about his grandmother?

[John317]

He may not claimed to be a prophet and God could have called to be such and Billy Graham did what God wanted.

That isn't the way it works with genuine prophets. Prophets are always aware when they are called by God to be a prophet. Review all the prophets of the Bible and you will see that this is so.

A prophet is not merely someone who does what God wants. A prophet is first and foremost God's spokesman or mouthpiece. They receive and give God's messages for the church and/or the world.

Originally Posted By: miz3

I believe Ellen White never called herself a prophet but you SDA "just say" she is.

Ellen White said that God gave her many hundreds of dreams and visions, and she said that the Holy Spirit helped her to write out those messages for the people of God. She said her work included the work of a prophet but that it also involved much more than a prophet's work. She said also that she did not claim the title of prophet because there were so many people who gave the title "prophet" a bad reputation. For the same reason Christ did not go around calling Himself the Messiah.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Whatever you say about Ellen White also goes for Billy Graham.

This is false. Billy Graham never even claimed that God gave him dreams and visions, nor did he ever claim that God revealed messages to him that God wanted him to give to the churches or to the world. Billy Graham got his messages out of the Bible just like anyone else gets messages out of the Bible. The is the work of the preacher and teacher, not the prophet. Ellen White got well over 1,500 messages, dreams, and visions, directly from Christ for individuals as well as for the church.

[John317]

Have you read any good biographies of her? There are many excellent ones. Arthur White's multivolume biography is probably the best, and certainly the most comprehensive. In those books, she comes alive and you see her as a real human being.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Of course he is the grandson. It is not an "objective view".

Have you read it? If not, you really aren't in a position to say.

But whether someone is related to the subject of a book is no evidence that the book is not objective and true.

Aren't there many books written by non-relatives which are not true or objective?

Actually, being related to the subject can be a great incentive for wanting to get the book right and accurate.

In any case, the books are well documented. Everything he says about his grandmother is fully documented.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Didn't he have to leave the "Estate" under "cloudy" circumstances for covering up and lying about his grandmother?

No. He certainly didn't have to leave the EGW Estate. He left the work in order to work full time on the biography. He was getting old and he knew he might not have long to live.

What "lie" is he supposed to have told about his grandmother? Please give documentation or references for any accusation made against Arthur White. We don't want to spread rumors and lies about him.

[ClubV12]

Cheddar my referrence to the special resurrection was merely a "footnote" in this discussion and I did not mean to imply in the least it was some kind of evidence she would be raised again to fulfill the Malachi prophecy. She is only one, of many, who will be raised just before the coming of the Lord. How long "before"? I won't speculate on a time frame, but shortly before.

That said, I am convinced John the Baptist was the first to meet the requirements, Ellen White was second and THROUGH the great body of her work her ministy continues today and she STILL meets the qualifications. Billy Graham is so far removed from this he's not even worthy of further comment.

However, I definitely leave room for yet another prophet in the future. Prophet in the truest sense of the word, not just a "man of God" (or woman), or just another great teacher, preacher, but a prophet in all that entails. As John317 pointed out, Ellen White was more than a prophet, she was a distinct messenger not just for her time, but for OUR time today as well.

One reason I leave room for yet another prophet is because of Malachi chapter four verse six:

"And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

I suspect this verse is talking about "unity" of the members that comprise Gods church, not actual familial ties. Turning the hearts of young people and older people and all the people in Gods church to perfect unity in their concept and worship of the Lord just before His return.

As there are undeniable "schisms" within the church of God today, the "generation gap" you could call it, this verse remains unfilfilled. WHAT will it take to bring about this perfect unity in the Lord? Perhaps yet another prophet? Malachi's prophecy continues to unfold in my opinion.

Ellen White certainly has played, and continues to do so, a "major roll" in the developements since the "end of times", which I believe occured in 1844. We ARE living in the end of times right now!

[miz3]

That isn't the way it works with genuine prophets. Prophets are always aware when they are called by God to be a prophet. Review all the prophets of the Bible and you will see that this is so.

A prophet is not merely someone who does what God wants. A prophet is first and foremost God's spokesman or mouthpiece. They receive and give God's messages for the church and/or the world.

I guess that leaves Ellen White out. She apparently did not know that she was a prophet because she refused to call herself a prophet.

That means she was not a prophet otherwise she would have known that fact and then truthfully said "God called me to be a prophet".

Thus, by your own standard you cut Ellen White out of being a prophet.

Good job John317.

[miz3]

Ellen White said that God gave her many hundreds of dreams and visions, and she said that the Holy Spirit helped her to write out those messages for the people of God. She said her work included the work of a prophet but that it also involved much more than a prophet's work. She said also that she did not claim the title of prophet because there were so many people who gave the title "prophet" a bad reputation. For the same reason Christ did not go around calling Himself the Messiah.

By your own previous standard this does not make Ellen White a prophet. Like Billy Graham she was God's servant doing a special work but they were not prophets according to "your" standard.

She never ever claimed that God called her to be a prophet and by your definition this alone excludes Ellen White.

Did John the Baptist claim to be a Prophet or even the Elijah?