EGW identified in Malachi 4

[ClubV12]

Did you miss the part where Ellen White referred to herself as MORE than a prophet, a messenger of the Lord? Did you miss the part about 200 some people also calling themselves prophets during her time, which is WHY she did not refer to herself in that regard?

The bible, just like the Spirit of Prophecy, has many hooks upon which one can hang his doubts. This is a pretty flimsy hook, but it was enough to hook (line and sinker) you! :)

[miz3]

This is false. Billy Graham never even claimed that God gave him dreams and visions, nor did he ever claim that God revealed messages to him that God wanted him to give to the churches or to the world. Billy Graham got his messages out of the Bible just like anyone else gets messages out of the Bible. The is the work of the preacher and teacher, not the prophet. Ellen White got well over 1,500 messages, dreams, and visions, directly from Christ for individuals as well as for the church.

Neither did Saul, yet the Bible says that Saul "prophesied" and was among the "prophets".

Neither did John the Baptist receive visions and dreams yet Jesus Christ called him a prophet.

How do you know where Billy Graham got his messages from God? It does not matter anyhow. A message received by whatever means from God is a message and is just as valid regardless of the means.

SDA seem confused about what is and is not from God.

[ClubV12]

Were getting hung up on the definition of a "prophet", ground we have plowed many times before this thread and it's not really applicable. Ellen White certainly meets ANY and EVERY definition of a prophet, as does John the Baptist, some prophets are quite clear in regards to their work and that title. Others, so called, could be debated depending on the definition employed.

[ClubV12]

The questions miz3 asked are typically NOT relevant to the discussion at hand. They are consistently divisive, side tracking and only lead to confusion. Frankly, I don't know why they are even addressed, as it inevitably leads to only more questions and more confusion.

Edson White has little or nothing to do with Malachi 4!!! Even a discussion of whether Ellen White was or wasn't a prophet is irrelevant to the primary question. The question of Ellen Whites status as a prophet has been beat to death.

The question is:

AS a PROPHET, does she or does she not meet the requirements of Malachi chapter four? If SHE doesn't, is there any other PROPHET in history, that might?

[John317]

Neither did John the Baptist receive visions and dreams yet Jesus Christ called him a prophet.

Not all of the genuine prophets received visions and dreams. I didn't imply that all prophets did receive them. But certainly Ellen White did receive them, and it is one of the marks of a prophet.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Neither did John the Baptist receive visions and dreams yet Jesus Christ called him a prophet.

Not all of the genuine prophets received visions and dreams. I didn't imply that all prophets did receive them. But certainly Ellen White did receive them, and it is one of the marks of a prophet.

Then you cannot discount Billy Graham because he did not receive any visions.

If Ellen White could be the Elijah of Malachi chapter four then Billy Graham could be the Elijah of Malachi chapter four. That is all I am saying.

[John317]

Then you cannot discount Billy Graham because he did not receive any visions.

I never said that Billy Graham should be discounted as a genuine prophet of God because he hasn't received any visions and dreams from God. I am saying he should be discounted for other reasons. For one thing, he teaches doctrines contrary to the Bible, and for another thing, Billy Graham has never indicated that he is a prophet or that he was given a message directly from God for the church or the world.

In other words, he doesn't meet any of the Bible tests for a prophet of God.

Do you believe Billy is a prophet? If so, please give us your reasons for believing it.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Then you cannot discount Billy Graham because he did not receive any visions.

I never said that Billy Graham should be discounted as a genuine prophet of God because he hasn't received any visions and dreams from God. I am saying he should be discounted for other reasons. For one thing, he teaches doctrines contrary to the Bible, and for another thing, Billy Graham has never indicated that he is a prophet or that he was given a message directly from God for the church or the world.

In other words, he doesn't meet any of the Bible tests for a prophet of God.

That is your opinion. You really do not know who the Elijah of Malachi chapter four is? Do you?

[John317]

... he teaches doctrines contrary to the Bible, and for another thing, Billy Graham has never indicated that he is a prophet or that he was given a message directly from God for the church or the world.

In other words, he doesn't meet any of the Bible tests for a prophet of God.

Originally Posted By: miz3

That is your opinion.

Do you believe he is a genuine prophet of God? If so, give us the reasons for your belief. What's your evidence?

[John317]

...You really do not know who the Elijah of Malachi chapter four is? Do you?

Yes, I do. It is exactly who Ellen White said it is.

[John317]

....Ellen White referred to herself as MORE than a prophet, a messenger of the Lord?

Yes, an important point. Ellen White didn't want people to think that God sent her only for the purpose of prophesying, but she was also an evangelist and teacher as well as a pastor. She was given many gifts.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...You really do not know who the Elijah of Malachi chapter four is? Do you?

Yes, I do. It is exactly who Ellen White said it is.

And who is that?

[John317]

And who is that?

See post#481550 on this same discussion.

[John317]

That isn't the way it works with genuine prophets. Prophets are always aware when they are called by God to be a prophet. Review all the prophets of the Bible and you will see that this is so.

A prophet is not merely someone who does what God wants. A prophet is first and foremost God's spokesman or mouthpiece. They receive and give God's messages for the church and/or the world.

Originally Posted By: miz3

I guess that leaves Ellen White out. She apparently did not know that she was a prophet because she refused to call herself a prophet.

That means she was not a prophet otherwise she would have known that fact and then truthfully said "God called me to be a prophet".

Thus, by your own standard you cut Ellen White out of being a prophet.

Good job John317.

Of course Ellen White knew she was a prophet. Read 1 SM 20-45.

She says plainly that Christ personally commissioned her as His messenger, and she wrote that God gave her many dreams and visions and helped her write out those messages for God's people. She also said that her work included the work of a prophet.

The reason she titled one of her major works, The Spirit of Prophecy, and another one, Spiritual Gifts, was that Ellen White was fully conscious of being a prophet of God.

Have you ever noticed how many times Ellen White referred to her own writings as "the Spirit of prophecy"? This is certainly evidence that she realized her assigned work was that of a prophet of God.

[Kevin H]

Mrs. White called herself "The Lord's Messenger" which was a specific type of prophet and she gave a good discription of the job before archaeologests discovered the different types of prophets in the ancient world, so we cannot use this as a way of saying that she is not a prophet. It is sort of like saying that someone did not claim to be a politician because they claimed to be the speaker of the house of representatives.

[John317]

Exactly. And of course we have her statements in which she explained why did laid no CLAIM to the TITLE of prophet. I think it's also important that she said she was fine with people calling her a prophet. She wouldn't have said this if she believed she wasn't a prophet.

[Kevin H]

Here's some very interesting and relevant information on historicism, with some reference to Joachim of Floris:

From the wikipedia,

Quote:

Early historical interpretations

Prophetic commentaries in the early church were often partial or incomplete, usually interpreting individual passages rather than entire books. The earliest complete commentary on the book of Revelation was carried out by Victorinus in 300 AD, considered to be one of the earliest Historicist commentators. An overview of the various prophetic expositions from the third century to the fifth centuries demonstrates that prophecies were uniformly interpreted within a Historicist framework by the Latin (later Catholic) writers.

Looking to the future fulfillment of certain prophetic passages, Christian theologians concluded that the events of Biblical prophecy (especially as contained in the books of Daniel and Revelation) encompassed the entire Church Age from the ascension of Christ to his second advent.

Throughout the medieval era the Historicist interpretation became increasingly modified and developed by the expositions of Andreas, Primasius (both 6th century), Bede (730 AD), Anspert, Arethas, Haymo, and Berengaud (all of the ninth century).

Historicism up to the Reformation

This broad form of Historicism held sway in Christianity from the 4th Century until the Reformation. Prefiguring the revolt that was about to come, the 10th century the Catholic bishop Arnulf of Orleans was the first to apply the 'man of sin' prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 to the papacy. The same interpretation was given by the Catholic abbot Joachim of Floris in 1190[8] and the archbishop Eberhard II in 1240.

Out of the Reformation and Counter Reformation, Reformers and Catholics devised different schemes of interpretation, which they each used to claim that the other was the apostate church. From the Reformers arose the the historicist paradigm. As such, the Pro-Catholic positions took root when the Jesuit Doctor of Theology, Francisco Ribera[10] proposed Futurism in 1590, as well as the Spanish Jesuit Luis de Alcazar who proposed Preterism.[11][12] [13][14]

[edit] Protestant historicist interpretations

Common features of Reformationist Historicist interpretations which makes them controversial are the identification of the Antichrist (1 and 2 John), the Beast (Revelation 13), the Man of Sin or Man of Lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2) , the "Little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8, and the Whore of Babylon (Revelation 17) with the Roman Catholic Church, the Papal system and each successive Pope himself (a common position held by Protestants in the Reformation, which is not prevalent today). Such an identification, however, is not unique to post-Reformation historicism. It has not been held by all historicists, and has been and is currently held by some futurists, including many traditional dispensationalists, and even in modified form by some restorationist Sedevacantist Catholics.

Excellent post John. The reason why Joachin is conisered the father of historisism is because St. Augustine got the main part of the church away from historisism and Joachin was working to bring the church back to historisism and developed historisism to what was to eventually become what we teach in our Daniel and Revelation seminars. His views are what evenually lead to Protestantism having the courage to break from the Catholics (although the major leaders such as Luther and Calvin were of Augustine background but influenced by Joachin. The other thread was the Franciscian Priests who had more reguard for the law of God and they really were affected by Joachin and if they were to wake up today and visit different churches, they would feel remarkably at home in our Daniel and Revelation seminars. Much of our debates with the Evangelicals are just continuation of the debates between the Franciscan priests and Augustinian priests)

John Darby took part of Joachim's thought, took it out of context and used it to lead to the Jesuit ideas of dispensationalism. Adventism is the heirs to the Historisits, especially Joachim's approach ot Historisism. Thank you for sharing the post.

[Kevin H]

Exactly. And of course we have her statements in which she explained why did laid no CLAIM to the TITLE of prophet. I think it's also important that she said she was fine with people calling her a prophet. She wouldn't have said this if she believed she wasn't a prophet.

Amen!!!

[John317]

John Darby took part of Joachim's thought, took it out of context and used it to lead to the Jesuit ideas of dispensationalism. Adventism is the heirs to the Historisits, especially Joachim's approach ot Historisism. Thank you for sharing the post.

That's interesting. And thank you for bringing up Joachim. I had never heard of him until you mentioned him a few months ago. Now I would like to read some of his writings, especially on the "man of sin" and on the books of Daniel and Revelation.

[Kevin H]

I have not read much of him, but he was brought up in classes and books about interpetations of Daniel and Revelation and his role in Historisism, and how many Christians considered him to be a prophet of God until they rejected Mrs. White and wanted to argue against her by having Prophecy stop with the Bible (despite the fact that John was telling how important Prophets were going to become to lead the church now that the Apostles were dieing off). Of course as fundamentalists we may have difficulty with him because we expect things to be so perfect in a prophet, and not see that there was the basic core message but also being affected by their times, and how since God does not force the will, God gives the messages to the generation on how they can finish the work and how the Lord could have come within a generation or so of the message.

Whether he was a prophet or not; the church had considered him one and he did play a large role in pointing the church in a direction that lead to Protestantism and Adventism.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

That isn't the way it works with genuine prophets. Prophets are always aware when they are called by God to be a prophet. Review all the prophets of the Bible and you will see that this is so.

A prophet is not merely someone who does what God wants. A prophet is first and foremost God's spokesman or mouthpiece. They receive and give God's messages for the church and/or the world.

Originally Posted By: miz3

I guess that leaves Ellen White out. She apparently did not know that she was a prophet because she refused to call herself a prophet.

That means she was not a prophet otherwise she would have known that fact and then truthfully said "God called me to be a prophet".

Thus, by your own standard you cut Ellen White out of being a prophet.

Good job John317.

Of course Ellen White knew she was a prophet. Read 1 SM 20-45.

She says plainly that Christ personally commissioned her as His messenger, and she wrote that God gave her many dreams and visions and helped her write out those messages for God's people. She also said that her work included the work of a prophet.

The reason she titled one of her major works, The Spirit of Prophecy, and another one, Spiritual Gifts, was that Ellen White was fully conscious of being a prophet of God.

Have you ever noticed how many times Ellen White referred to her own writings as "the Spirit of prophecy"? This is certainly evidence that she realized her assigned work was that of a prophet of God.

If its sooooo obvious then why does she not come out and say, "I am a prophet". It makes no sense to put it in writing and then refuse call yourself a prophet.

Does not add up.

[John317]

If its sooooo obvious then why does she not come out and say, "I am a prophet". It makes no sense to put it in writing and then refuse call yourself a prophet.

Does not add up.

Have you read 1 SM 25-45? Those are the pages which contain the answers to your questions.

It really isn't that complicated.

Most of the prophets in the Bible didn't go around calling themselves prophets, and Christ didn't go around calling Himself the Messiah, either.

Yet that seems to add up OK, right?

[John317]

Read as needed:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post209316

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[12tribes]

Hosea 12:13

(13) And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved.

1 Corinthians 10:11

(11) Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Israel was a type of the church in the last days days, Israel lead by a prophet so that means God's church in the last days will be lead by a prophet.

[12tribes]

I believe this chapter is talking about the end of time. The Elijah prophet that is sent, is Ellen White.

I believe that the hearts of the Fathers turned to their children has yet to be fulfilled.

I'm constantly trying to find the balance between scripture and Sister Whites work. It is difficult to separate the two. When I need to make a decision, I search both for counsel. When I'm talking to a neighbor, I use only the bible. When I'm talking to Adventists I make no apology or excuse for using Ellen Whites counsel in conjunction with and to enlighten the biblical counsel. For those that wonder how to apply the prophets counsel to their life, how do you apply the biblical counsel to your life? I see no difference, how you apply it is between you and the Lord.

For two thousand years the world did not have a prophet. It is a gift, from God, that we have been given His messenger in Ellen White.

I think Elijah is mentioned in Revelation 12

Revelation 12:6

(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This sounds like Elijah who went into the wilderness and was fed