EGW identified in Malachi 4

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

If its sooooo obvious then why does she not come out and say, "I am a prophet". It makes no sense to put it in writing and then refuse call yourself a prophet.

Does not add up.

Have you read 1 SM 25-45? Those are the pages which contain the answers to your questions.

It really isn't that complicated.

Most of the prophets in the Bible didn't go around calling themselves prophets, and Christ didn't go around calling Himself the Messiah, either.

Yet that seems to add up OK, right?

Christ did indeed go around telling lots of people that He was the Messiah. That is why the Jews wanted to kill Him. That is also why His disciples and other followers followed Him. How did they know Christ is the Messiah? Jesus Christ told them He was the Messiah.

[Kevin H]

John: If you look more into Joachin, just be careful and remember that he was for that time in history to help get the church in a certan direction. Sort of like if we are driving to a California beach from New York and having reached Chicago and saw a sign to help us go in the right direction. Remember we have the road signs for where we are now which we need to pay attention to.

[John317]

...Christ did indeed go around telling lots of people that He was the Messiah. That is why the Jews wanted to kill Him. That is also why His disciples and other followers followed Him. How did they know Christ is the Messiah? Jesus Christ told them He was the Messiah.

When Peter made his confession that Jesus is the Messiah, the record says

Then [Jesus] strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. {Matt. 16: 20}

He also told his disciples to tell no one about what they saw on the Mount of Transfiguration. Matt. 17: 9.

If you check the Gospels, you will see that Christ didn't tell "lots of people He was the Messiah."

Outside of his own disciples, Jesus only told the Samaritan woman at the well that He was the Messiah.

The Jews wanted to kill Christ because He was a threat to their power. He told them He was the Son of God, which they understood to mean that He was claiming to be equal with God. At His trial Christ did make the "good confession" that He is the Son of God.

There were two main reasons that Jesus did not proclaim Himself to be the Messiah:

1) The title Messiah was associated with political/military overtones and was therefore likely to be misunderstood. Jews generally wanted to make Christ their king for the purpose of overthrowing the Romans. Even Judas had this idea. Christ was careful not to encourage this wrong understanding.

2) It was common for people to make false claims of being the messiah.

[John317]

Good point, I agree. :-)

[ClubV12]

There is a certain danger when we start thinking the signs of the Lords sure return were so long ago. This is what Sister White has to say about that.

"The first and second watches are past. We are in the third watch, waiting and watching for the Master’s return. There remains but a little period of watching now." I saw some becoming weary; their eyes were directed downward, and they were engrossed with earthly things, and were unfaithful in watching. They were saying: "In the first watch we expected our Master, but were disappointed. We thought surely He would come in the second watch, but that passed, and He came not. We may be again disappointed. We need not be so particular. He may not come in the following watch. We are in the third watch, and now we think it best to lay up our treasure on the earth, that we may be secure against want." Many were sleeping, stupefied with the cares of this life and allured by the deceitfulness of riches from their waiting, watching position. 2T 192.1

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...Christ did indeed go around telling lots of people that He was the Messiah. That is why the Jews wanted to kill Him. That is also why His disciples and other followers followed Him. How did they know Christ is the Messiah? Jesus Christ told them He was the Messiah.

When Peter made his confession that Jesus is the Messiah, the record says

Then [Jesus] strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. {Matt. 16: 20}

He also told his disciples to tell no one about what they saw on the Mount of Transfiguration. Matt. 17: 9.

If you check the Gospels, you will see that Christ didn't tell "lots of people He was the Messiah."

Outside of his own disciples, Jesus only told the Samaritan woman at the well that He was the Messiah.

The Jews wanted to kill Christ because He was a threat to their power. He told them He was the Son of God, which they understood to mean that He was claiming to be equal with God. At His trial Christ did make the "good confession" that He is the Son of God.

There were two main reasons that Jesus did not proclaim Himself to be the Messiah:

1) The title Messiah was associated with political/military overtones and was therefore likely to be misunderstood. Jews generally wanted to make Christ their king for the purpose of overthrowing the Romans. Even Judas had this idea. Christ was careful not to encourage this wrong understanding.

2) It was common for people to make false claims of being the messiah.

You need to reread the Gospels again. There were many who knew that Jesus Christ was the Messiah including the Jewish leaders.

You are trying to pretend that only a "few" really knew which is patently false.

Now if you are talking about the ratio of those who believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah to those who did not believe....The ratio of nonbelievers is indeed greater than those who did believe.

The fact is many knew that Jesus Christ claimed to be the Messiah. Read at least John chapter eight.

[skyblue888]

Jesus like all the other prophets was unassuming. Mrs. White was unassuming. Christians will be unassuming. The Spirit of Christ is unassuming.

sky

[Neil D]

my readings of titles always include that the people declare who is named prophet, but can not be self imposed.IOWs, it was the people who declared who was prophet, not the person. However, a person, who could be prophet, could describe the work of a prophet and yet not be declared a prophet.

[ClubV12]

So hamilton-beach, does Sister White fit with Malachi 4? Or, are we still waiting for a future prophet?

[Neil D]

I have never been one to limit the reading of the bible to specifics......until the close....

Case in point.....

The hope of a promised Messiah....a sacrifice that bridged the gap between God and Humanity....

There was never too much of a expounding on this subject in the scriptures before Christ's coming...Don't get me wrong, there were snippets along the timelines, but never a prolonged expulsion explaining the whys and wherefores..... The first clue was in Genesis...."He shall bruise your head and you will strike his heel..."

Even when Christ came, there was no emphasis that this was the comming messiah except after the fact that the Christ died....

So, to tie the link of Malachi 4 to EGW is to limit any possible future people who may do a better or clearer job of turning the "hearts of the fathers to thier sons"....

...I will say this...if Christ were to come today, she may be the more singular source employed by God to preach the Malachi Message....

[ClubV12]

I see the Adventist commentary notes the turning of hearts is a call for reformation, His children turning back to God.

I think Ellen White fits Malachi 4, as did John the Baptist, and I'll leave room for yet another future prophet as well.

[John317]

You need to reread the Gospels again. There were many who knew that Jesus Christ was the Messiah including the Jewish leaders.

You are trying to pretend that only a "few" really knew which is patently false.

Now if you are talking about the ratio of those who believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah to those who did not believe....The ratio of nonbelievers is indeed greater than those who did believe.

The fact is many knew that Jesus Christ claimed to be the Messiah. Read at least John chapter eight.

The issue is not whether people knew Jesus was the Messiah. The question is whether Jesus went around saying, "I am the Messiah." Jesus rarely said those words. In fact, He only said them once-- in a private conversation, to the woman at the well.

How many prophets of God went around telling people, "I am a prophet"? I don't know of any who did that. God's true prophets aren't concerned with titles but they are very concerned with giving God's messages and with doing the work of a prophet. The title itself means nothing.

Do you remember what Jesus told the disciples of John the Baptizer when he sent them to ask if Jesus was the Messiah? Jesus didn't reply, "Yes, I am the Messiah." Instead, Jesus told them to observe what He was doing. The proof was in the pudding. Anyone can make the mere claim of being a prophet or of being the Messiah.

The point here is that Ellen White did not deny that she was a prophet. She explained several times why she did not claim the title. She said it was because her work involved much more than that of a prophet, and also because there were many people making false claims of being a prophet. (See 1 SM 32-37)

Here is her explanation in her own words:

Quote:

Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies. {1SM 32.4}

Some have stumbled over the fact that I said I did not

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claim to be a prophet; [REFERENCE IS HERE MADE TO A DISCOURSE GIVEN AT BATTLE CREEK, OCTOBER 2, 1904, IN WHICH SHE SAID, "I DO NOT CLAIM TO BE A PROPHETESS."--COMPILERS.] and they have asked, Why is this? {1SM 31.5}

I have had no claims to make, only that I am instructed that I am the Lord's messenger; that He called me in my youth to be His messenger, to receive His word, and to give a clear and decided message in the name of the Lord Jesus. {1SM 32.1}

Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be His messenger. "Your work," He instructed me, "is to bear My word. Strange things will arise, and in your youth I set you apart to bear the message to the erring ones, to carry the word before unbelievers, and with pen and voice to reprove from the Word actions that are not right. Exhort from the Word. I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schools. My Spirit and My power shall be with you. {1SM 32.2}

To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.

35

{1SM 34.5}

When I was last in Battle Creek, I said before a large congregation that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Twice I referred to this matter, intending each time to make the statement, "I do not claim to be a prophetess." If I spoke otherwise than this, let all now understand that what I had in mind to say was that I do not claim the title of prophet or prophetess. {1SM 35.1}

I understood that some were anxious to know if Mrs. White still held the same views that she did years ago when they had heard her speak in the sanitarium grove, in the Tabernacle, and at the camp meetings held in the suburbs of Battle Creek. I assured them that the message she bears today is the same that she has borne during the sixty years of her public ministry. She has the same service to do for the Master that was laid upon her in her girlhood. She receives lessons from the same Instructor. The directions given her are, "Make known to others what I have revealed to you. Write out the messages that I give you, that the people may have them." This is what she has endeavored to do. {1SM 35.2}

I have written many books, and they have been given a wide circulation. Of myself I could not have brought out the truth in these books, but the Lord has given me the help of His Holy Spirit. These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the past sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation. {1SM 35.3}

At the age of seventy-eight I am still toiling. We are all in the hands of the Lord. I trust in Him; for I know that he will never leave nor forsake those who put their trust in Him. I have committed myself to His keeping. {1SM 35.4}

"And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry" (1 Timothy 1:12).--The Review and Herald, July 26, 1906. {1SM 35.5}

The Work of a Prophet and More

During the discourse, I said that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Some were surprised at this statement, and as

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much is being said in regard to it, I will make an explanation. Others have called me a prophetess, but I have never assumed that title. I have not felt that it was my duty thus to designate myself. Those who boldly assume that they are prophets in this our day are often a reproach to the cause of Christ. {1SM 35.6}

My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people.--Letter 55, 1905. {1SM 36.1}

I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.--Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}

[miz3]

Jesus like all the other prophets was unassuming. Mrs. White was unassuming. Christians will be unassuming. The Spirit of Christ is unassuming.

sky

That kind a eliminates most of us here on the Forum. There aren't many "wilting violets" here.

Jeremiah and Daniel were not unassuming. Jesus was not unassuming either. John chapter eight eliminates that assumption.

[miz3]

my readings of titles always include that the people declare who is named prophet, but can not be self imposed.IOWs, it was the people who declared who was prophet, not the person. However, a person, who could be prophet, could describe the work of a prophet and yet not be declared a prophet.

God decides who are His Prophets.

It is never the people.

[miz3]

So hamilton-beach, does Sister White fit with Malachi 4? Or, are we still waiting for a future prophet?

No! Ellen White as good as she was does not fit Malachi chapter four.

The Elijah of Malachi chapter four has already come.

[Tom Wetmore]

Read Malachi 4 in conjunction with Joel 2:28-32, and as Peter reiterated it in Acts 2.

The last day spirit of Elijah, the spiritual gift of prophecy is poured out on all people. It is not fulfill by any one person.

[ClubV12]

Sister White says essentially the same thing, that "we" are the people to give a message just before the coming of the Lord, in the spirit of Elijah.

But, "we" wouldn't BE a people without the Lords messenger. Thus, I do see Sister White as a fulfillment of Malachi. All though, prophets do not readily accept "titles", and in keeping with that she makes no specific claims for herself. She doesn't even claim to be a prophet as far as that goes, but clearly, she was.

While Joel and Acts are applicable, there was one that came before "the people", a special messenger to prepare the way, John the Baptist. In our time, Ellen White, to prepare a people for the latter rain, the day of Pentecost if you would.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

my readings of titles always include that the people declare who is named prophet, but can not be self imposed.IOWs, it was the people who declared who was prophet, not the person. However, a person, who could be prophet, could describe the work of a prophet and yet not be declared a prophet.

God decides who are His Prophets.

It is never the people.

Um, and God told ....whom? The prophet?

And how was a prophet deemed to have the message of God? Wasn't it by the people who listened? It wasn't the priests....They were afraid of the people....

Think this thru.......It's the people who deem that a person is a prophet....

[Tom Wetmore]

You miss the transition that confers the same spirit of prophecy no longer on just a single individual but on "all people". Respect what EGW said and take it at face value and stop trying to undermine and diminish what she said.

[ClubV12]

I didn't miss her transition anymore than I "missed" John the Baptists transition! As I stated earlier, many posts ago, Malachi is not yet over, it continues to unfold. It could be "we" the people, it could also include yet another prophet, once again in the "spirit of Elijah". Malachi is speaking about "a" prophet, as in singular, Ellen White expands that concept to include a "group". I believe either interpretation is accurate.

Even in Ellen Whites time there were others who had truly divine visions/revelations and dreams, providing insight and light to Ellen White herself. But there is no doubt, SHE was the key player here, THE chosen mouth piece of God, who is not limited to any one person at any one time. I believe SHE, like no other person or group of persons in the last 2,000 years, fulfills Malachi in the same way John the Baptist fulfilled it.

[ClubV12]

A "future" prophet, one yet to come?

Actually, I don't think so, certainly in no way comparable to Ellen Whites work. We may well see individuals with divine revelations pointing us back to the path. Building on Ellen Whites counsel and the biblical counsel. Singular instances, perhaps plural, like Hiram Edsons revelation, or Lougboroughs dream. Not "prophets" but more like "men of God" with a specific message. When it comes to prophets, Ellen White was a MAJOR player, not a minor prophet, not just a "woman of God", not one with a singular message. I don't believe we will ever see another "major prophet" before the Lord comes.

[Kevin H]

I don't know if we will see another major prophet or not. I'm sure that we will learn that there were many like William Foy through history. We need to study more the different prophetic roles so that they can be used correctly. But I wonder if God would leave us without prophetic guidance during the greatest crisis in history.

[ClubV12]

He has not left us without guidance in the coming greatest crisis in history. We have abundant resources in the works of His messenger, Sister White, already. FAR MORE than most Adventists are even aware of because they do not study carefully that which has already been revealed. This is fundamentally why I don't think we will see another prophet in the spirit of Elijah (since John the Baptist, since Ellen White in the future). We HAVE been given one already.

We have zero excuse as to the plan, as to the warnings, as to what we must do to be prepared. Her testimony, the testimony of Jesus is with us today. His detailed messages to us from the very throne of God, are with us right now. Similiar in scope to the laws of Moses, no detail has been left out. What to wear, how to eat, where we should live, how to conduct our business, how to run our medical enterprises, our publishing house, our church. It's all there, in great detail. To much detail some would say, perhaps just as the children of Israel would have said. To many rules and laws and details, we will do that which is convenient. Much of this was merely Moses' opinion anyway, especially since he's dead now, that was for HIS time, not ours. And a hundred other excuses...

We have been given a prophet, Sister White, I believe her position, her work, is equal to the great prophets of biblical times. Like John the Baptist, like Paul, we dramatically underestimate her calling and her position, at great peril to ourselves in doing so.

[Windsor]

He has not left us without guidance in the coming greatest crisis in history. We have abundant resources in the works of His messenger, Sister White, already. FAR MORE than most Adventists are even aware of because they do not study carefully that which has already been revealed. This is fundamentally why I don't think we will see another prophet in the spirit of Elijah (since John the Baptist, since Ellen White in the future). We HAVE been given one already.

We have zero excuse as to the plan, as to the warnings, as to what we must do to be prepared. Her testimony, the testimony of Jesus is with us today. His detailed messages to us from the very throne of God, are with us right now. Similiar in scope to the laws of Moses, no detail has been left out. What to wear, how to eat, where we should live, how to conduct our business, how to run our medical enterprises, our publishing house, our church. It's all there, in great detail. To much detail some would say, perhaps just as the children of Israel would have said. To many rules and laws and details, we will do that which is convenient. Much of this was merely Moses' opinion anyway, especially since he's dead now, that was for HIS time, not ours. And a hundred other excuses...

We have been given a prophet, Sister White, I believe her position, her work, is equal to the great prophets of biblical times. Like John the Baptist, like Paul, we dramatically underestimate her calling and her position, at great peril to ourselves in doing so.

Moses is alive now.

[John317]

You miss the transition that confers the same spirit of prophecy no longer on just a single individual but on "all people". Respect what EGW said and take it at face value and stop trying to undermine and diminish what she said.

The Holy Spirit won't inspire people to contradict the Bible or Ellen White's writings. So when people claim to be inspired by the same Spirit of prophecy but they contradict or undermine what the previous prophets said, we can know that they are speaking falsely.