‘Variance’ for North American, Trans-European Division Fails

[John317]

...."For she herself has also been a "prostatis" of many, and of myself as well." Prostatis, 4368, is defined by Thayer's Greek Definitions as "A woman set over others, a female guardian, a protectress, a patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources." "Patroness" indicates ample financial resources. She has helped and protected many, including Paul, and is traveling on church business requiring the help of the congregation. "Set over others" she may be one of the Greek "leading" or "chief women" Paul mentions converting in Acts.17:4.

There is lots of evidence that points out that she was a leader in her day...So, if she can become a leader, why not the women of our day?

Paul's instructions in 1 Cor. 14: 30-39 and 1 Timothy 2: 8-15 show that Paul intended in "all the churches of the saints" that "your women [would] keep silent in the churches."

QUESTION: Do you have any evidence that Paul would give the above instuction at the same time that a woman was set over men, including over Paul, in a church only a few miles away from Corinth?

[John317]

I have yet to hear anyone give a plausible answer to the dishonesty of the idea that the General Conference would issue her false credentials. If they gave her that credential and she was not recognized as an ordained minister of the Church, they would be lying. And for her to use it if she was not an ordained minister is saying she was also guilty of dishonesty.

How do you explain that?

The same way that I would explain why the conferences gave other women "licenses to preach" when they weren't pastors of local churches.

There are a variety of legitimate reasons for giving people licenses to minister or preach. The main purpose is to show that the church accepts someone as a representative of the church. See point #4. It says:

Quote:

4. Women “Licensed to Preach” by the Seventh-day Adventist Church during Ellen White’s lifetime included the following:

1878

Anna Fulton Minnesota

Ellen S. Lane Michigan

Julia Owen Kentucky-Tennessee

1879

Libbie Collins Minnesota

Hattie Enoch Kansas

Libbie Fulton Minnesota

Lizzie Post Minnesota....

....Some of the women listed above were employed by the church. Others, such as Margaret Caro, who was a dentist, were self-supporting.

Therefore they were not false credentials, and no one was lying. In order for the credential to be genuine, it was not necessary for Ellen White to be a church pastor or a minister in the usual sense of the term. After all, Ellen White shared the credential that James White received from the General Conference. She was given this credential many years after she had begun serving Jesus Christ as His special messenger to the Remanant.

Ellen White was ordained by a higher power than man-- she was ordained by Jesus Christ Himself in Dec. of 1844. No man's ordination of Ellen White could add anything to her prophettic ministry, and she never requested such an ordination by any man. The church did not have a credential for a prophet of God; therefore, the credential for an ordained minister was the only one they had to give her. It didn't add to her authority or change her position or work in any way.

One other thing that should be considered is that in those days, when women traveled alone and had no proof of being on legitimate business, they were sometimes arrested on suspicion of being a prostitute. Ellen White wrote: "Women who travel alone through those cities, if they are the least suspicious of them, are taken up by the authorities and their cases are investigated." (See next post for the context of this quote.)

If you find what I say here unacceptable, please contact the Ellen G. White Estate and ask the good people there to explain why Ellen White had a minister's credential.

In the meantime, check out the following paper concerning Ellen White's position on the ordination of women:

Quote:

From the Lifetime and Experience of Ellen G. White

A paper presented at the ministerial meeting at the 1990 General Conference session. Prepared by the White Estate staff.

1. A resolution to ordain women was discussed at the General Conference of 1881. No action was taken. The minutes include the following lines:

“Resolved, That females possessing the necessary qualifications to fill that position may, with perfect propriety, be set apart by ordination to the work of the Christian ministry.

“This was discussed by J.O. Corliss, A. C. Bourdeau, E. R. Jones, D. H. Lamson, W. H. Littlejohn, A. S. Hutchins, D. M. Canright, and J. N. Loughborough, and referred to the General Conference Committee.” — RH, Dec. 20, 1881.

Ellen White did not attend the General Conference of 1881. Her husband died on August 6 of that year. Two weeks after his death she left Battle Creek, bound for California. She did not return to Michigan until August of 1883.

2. For many years Ellen White was voted ministerial credentials by the Michigan Conference (see e.g. RH, Sept. 10, 1872), and then later by the General Conference. However, she was never ordained by human hands, nor did she ever perform a wedding, organize a church, or conduct a baptism.

• Ministerial credentials of Ellen G. White, Michigan Conference, October 1, 1883. Signed by J. Fargo, President, and A. H. Mason, Secretary.

• Ministerial credentials of Ellen G. White, General Conference, December 1, 1885. Signed by G. I. Butler, President, and Uriah Smith, Secretary.

• Ministerial credentials of Ellen G. White, General Conference, November 1, 1887. Signed by G. I. Butler, President, and Uriah Smith, Secretary.

• Ministerial credentials of Ellen G. White, General Conference, March 7, 1899. Signed by L. A. Hoopes, Secretary.

• June 12, 1913. Signed by A. G. Daniells, President, and W.A. Spicer, Secretary.

3. In 1895 Ellen White recommended the ordination of women who would give themselves to a deaconess-type of work:

“Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church.” — RH, July 9, 1895.

A number of women were ordained as deaconesses during Ellen White’s Australian ministry. On August 10, 1895, the nominating committee at the Ashfield church in Sydney rendered its report, which was approved. The clerk’s minutes for that date state:

“Immediately following the election, the officers were called to the front where Pastors Corliss and McCullagh set apart the elder, deacons, [and] deaconesses by prayer and the laying on of hands.”

Several years later, in the same church, W. C. White officiated at the ordination of the church officers. The minutes of the Ashfield church for January 7, 1900, state:

“The previous Sabbath officers had been nominated and accepted for the current year, and today Elder White ordained and laid hands on the elders, deacon, and deaconesses”—Adventist Review, Jan. 16, 1986.

4. Women “Licensed to Preach” by the Seventh-day Adventist Church during Ellen White’s lifetime included the following:

1878

Anna Fulton Minnesota

Ellen S. Lane Michigan

Julia Owen Kentucky-Tennessee

1879

Libbie Collins Minnesota

Hattie Enoch Kansas

Libbie Fulton Minnesota

Lizzie Post Minnesota

1880

Anna Johnson Minnesota

1881

Ida W. Ballenger Illinois

Helen L. Mosre Illinois

1884

Ruie Hill Kansas

1886

Ida. W. Hibben Illinois

1887

Mrs. S.E. Pierce Vermont

1893

Flore Plummer Iowa

1894

Margaret Caro New Zealand

1895

Mrs. S.A. Lindsay New York

1898

Sarepta Irish Henry Gen. Conf.

Lulu Wightmen New York

1899

Edith Bartlett British Conf.

1900

Hetty Haskell Gen. Conf.

Mina Robinson British Conf.

1901

Carrie V. Hansen Utah

Emma Hawkins Iowa

Mrs. E.R. Willims Michigan

1902

Mrs. S.N. Haskell Greater New York

Minnie Sype Oklahoma

1904

Alma Bjdigg Finland Mission

Mrs. J.E. bOND Arizona

Bertha E. Jorgensen South Dakota

1910

Perl Field Nebraska

Mrs. Ura Spring Nebraska

Some of the women listed above were employed by the church. Others, such as Margaret Caro, who was a dentist, were self-supporting.

5. Ellen White made three statements which are sometimes construed as evidence that she supported the concept of women as ordained gospel ministers.

In 1898 she declared that “there are women who should labor in the gospel ministry” (Ev 472). The context of this statement seems to indicate that she is speaking of ministers’ wives.

She wrote:

“Letters have come to me from several, asking my advice upon the question, Should ministers’ wives adopt infant children? Would I advise them to do this kind of work? To some who were regarding this matter favorably, I answered, No; God would have you help your husband in his work. The Lord has not given you children of your own; His wisdom is not to be questioned. He knows what is best. Consecrate your powers to God as a Christian worker. You can help your husband in many ways....

“There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women. But the enemy would be pleased to have the women whom God could use to help hundreds binding up their time and strength on one helpless little mortal that requires constant care and attention.” — 5MR 325, 326.

Continued

[John317]

Ellen White on the ordination of women in the SDA church:

Continued

Quote:

In the year 1900 Ellen White published Testimonies, volume 6, which includes a section titled “The Canvasser a Gospel Worker.” Here the author states:

“All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.” — 6T 322.

Finally, in September 1903, Ellen White wrote:

“The Lord calls upon those connected with our sanitariums, publishing houses, and schools to teach the youth to do evangelistic work. Our time and energy must not be so largely employed in establishing sanitariums, food stores, and restaurants that other lines of work will be neglected. Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work should not be bound down to mechanical employment.

“The youth should be encouraged to attend our training schools for Christian workers, which should become more and more like the schools of the prophets. These institutions have been established by the Lord, and if they are conducted in harmony with His purpose, the youth sent to them will quickly be prepared to engage in various lines of missionary work. Some will be trained to enter the field as missionary nurses, some as canvassers, and some as gospel ministers.” — 8T 229, 230.

6. Ellen White made two statements about her own call to serve the Lord as His messenger. She declared:

“At the age of 78 I am still toiling. We are all in the hands of the Lord. I trust in Him, for I know that He will never leave nor forsake those who put their trust in Him. I have committed myself to His keeping.

“And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry.” — RH, July 26, 1906.

“In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth.” — RH, May 18, 1911.

It will be recalled that Ellen White was given her first vision in December 1844, in Portland, Maine. Shortly thereafter she was prompted by the Lord to tell others what she had seen.

7. Ellen White did not concern herself with women’s rights movements. When she was urged to join others in the crusade for women’s suffrage, she declined the invitation. She wrote to her husband:

“I called upon Mrs. Graves. She had a burden upon her mind and ever since she knew I was at home she desired to see me. She said she felt that she must talk out her feelings to me. She is desirous that women’s suffrage should be looked into by me. She says women ought to vote, and she related many things of a startling character which were legalized in France and St. Louis, and an effort was made to carry them out in Chicago this year, but [the effort] failed. Houses of ill fame are legalized. Women who travel alone through those cities, if they are the least suspicious of them, are taken up by the authorities and their cases are investigated. If they are diseased they are placed in the care of the doctors and cured. Then they are fit for the visits of men and are placed in the legalized home for men to satisfy their lusts upon. No examination is made of the men, and where this law is carried into effect the crime and immorality resemble the condition of the world which existed previous to the Flood.

“Mrs. Graves viewed the matter as I do in regard to the increase of crime and demoralization of society. She says women must vote if this law is [to be] withstood. We had a long talk in regard to temperance. I told her that my mind was unprepared for any such matter as women voting. She had been thinking and dwelling upon these things and her mind was ripe upon them, while my work was of another character. We were doing upon the point of temperance what no other class of people in the world were. We were as much in favor of a pledge against tobacco as liquor.” — 10MR 69.

8. It is likely that Ellen White did not suggest at any time that the Seventh-day Adventist Church should commence the practice of ordaining women to the gospel ministry. Her secretary, C. C. Crisler, says that she was very cautious on this point. Here is the correspondence relating to this question:

“March 12, 1916

“Mr. Clarence Crisler, Sanitarium [California]

“Dear Brother: Will you please inform me in regard to the setting apart of women who can give some time to missionary work, by laying on hands in prayer, found in Review and Herald, back in the early part of the nineties, probably back in about 1892 or 1893, from the pen of Sister White.

“The reason I ask for this, I was in a recent meeting where Elder Andross set aside women by the laying on of hands, and when I asked him for the authority for so doing, he referred me to you, and as I have been a Bible worker for a number of years and have recently been granted a ministerial license, I want this information.

“Please answer at once, as I want to hear from you before I go to the Southwestern Union Conference, which convenes April 7. Please send me two or three copies of her statement, as the president of our conference wants one.” — Mrs. L. E. Cox, 134 Agarita Avenue, San Antonio, Texas.

“March 22, 1916

“Mrs. L. E. Cox, San Antonio, Texas

“Dear Sister: I have your letter of the twelfth, making inquiry regarding the ordination of women who give some time to missionary work—particularly to some statement which you believe to be found in a Review early in the nineties, from the pen of Mrs. Ellen G. White.

“As this query will require some study on my part, and searching, and as I must go to Mountain View in the morning for a few days, I am under the necessity of asking that you excuse me from answering for a few days. Upon my return, early next week, I will endeavor to send you a reply, accompanying same, if possible, with the extracts called for. However, I might say that I have not understood these extracts as teaching positively the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel. I have supposed, rather, that they refer primarily to the ordination of God-fearing women as deaconesses in local churches. But of this I will speak more fully when I write again.

“I hope to write you about the twenty-eighth, and will address you as above. If you are leaving San Antonio for other parts, it would be well for you to leave a forwarding order, so mail addressed as above will reach you in due time at the union Conference.” — Clarence Crisler.

“June 16, 1916

“Mrs. L. E. Cox

“Dear Sister: In my answer under date of March 22, I was unable to forward you copy of the Review article called for, but ventured to say, ‘I have not understood these extracts as teaching positively the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel. I have supposed, rather, that they refer primarily to the ordination of God-fearing women as deaconesses in local churches.’

“Since writing the above, I have found the article in question and have had same copied. Enclosed find a copy of this article. [RH, July 9, 1895.] I am also forwarding a copy to your local conference president, Elder E. L. Neff, and to the president of your union, Elder J. W. Christian, that they may know what I am sending to you.

“While I do not make it a part of my work to presume to interpret that which has been written, yet I may be pardoned for expressing as my conviction the thought that this article published in the Review does not refer to the ordination of women as ministers of the gospel, but rather touches upon the question of setting apart, for special duties in local churches, God-fearing women in such churches where circumstances call for such action.

“And may I add that Sister White, personally, was very careful about expressing herself in any wise as to the advisability of ordaining women as gospel ministers. She has often spoken of the perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a gainsaying world; but as yet I have never seen from her pen any statement that would seem to encourage the formal and official ordination of women to the gospel ministry, to public labor such as is ordinarily expected of an ordained minister.

“This is not suggesting, much less saying, that no women are fitted for such public labor, and that none should ever be ordained; it is simply saying that so far as my knowledge extends, Sister White never encouraged church officials to depart from the general customs of the church in those matters.” — C. C. Crisler.

Conclusion

The question of women’s ordination was not high on Ellen White’s agenda during her lifetime. Her best energies were directed toward achieving a greater unity and a deeper spirituality in the church.

Concluded

[Neil D]

Paul's instructions in 1 Cor. 14: 30-39 and 1 Timothy 2: 8-15 show that Paul intended in "all the churches of the saints" that "your women [would] keep silent in the churches."

QUESTION: Do you have any evidence that Paul would give the above instuction at the same time that a woman was set over men, including over Paul, in a church only a few miles away from Corinth?

I have Jesus' word of praise that a publicly speaking woman, urging men of the city to come and hear Him...Does that count? See John 4.

There are many instances of Paul praising women who teach the truth such as Priscilla, see Acts 18:2,18,26; 1 Cor. 16:19; and Romans 16:3; Phoebe, a "diakonon" servant/minister in Romans 16:1, Junia in Romans 16:7, "outstanding among the apostles" Nympha, and "her house church"-- the only leader mentioned by name in Laodicea, Col. 4:15. Also Euodia and Syntyche who "contended at my side in the cause of the gospel" verbally wrestling with unbelievers, Phil. 4:1-3. He hails many other women as co-workers in Christ Jesus. If Paul had issued a blanket edict against all women teaching everywhere Paul would have reprimanded these women instead of praising them!

Look at the number of references that point to women who were leaders...the quality and number of these evidences show that women were valued and the church responded to thier calling....

[epaminondas]

Tom Wetmore said "Paul identifies her as the minister of the church at Cenchrea" and now you say it's not so. Ephesians 3:7 is frequently also translated as "servant." I would not be surprised that "minister" is there used in its archaic meaning of "servant" by those who did translate it as minister. Calvin's Latin commentary uses "minister" and in Latin it is "servant", not minister of religion.

And in what "leadership" roles would you like to see women? Ordained pastor?

I have no problems with people ordaining women as pastors, as long as they don't try to make a Biblical case for it.

[Neil D]

Tom Wetmore said "Paul identifies her as the minister of the church at Cenchrea" and now you say it's not so.

[Alchemy]

WOW!!!

Threads can really take off on this board. That's great, but it's hard to keep up with.

The Bible compares women leading over men as much a curse as being ruled over by pagans! It is not a good idea.

The problem is finding good men who want to do the leading! A lot of men, and there are few in the SDA Church, want to do what they want and leave those duties to anyone who wants them! So, who else is there to fill those positions?!?

[Tom Wetmore]

Whatever one says, whatever one does, there is no way anyone can say Romans 16:1 unequivocally states that Phoebe was a minister of religion, a pastor...

Then explain why this word is only translated in the NT as merely "servant" when used in the one time it is talking about a woman and in all other instances when diakonos is used in reference to man or men is translated as minister?

The earliest translations date to a time when the church was unified around a male only clergy. It was unthinkable that Phoebe could have been the same as all the male diakonos mentioned in the NT. Few translators stray from that longstanding tradition.

The more word that makes the more profound distinction in these two verses is the word prostatis. Paul said Phoebe was prostatis to many, including Paul himself. Read that in context of Paul telling the believers in Rome that they should do as she asks of them. The word prostatis is used only once in the whole NT and it means:

Quote:

1) a woman set over others

2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

That word is derived from the Greek verb []iproistemi which means

Quote:

1) to set or place before

a) to set over

to be over, to superintend, preside over

c) to be a protector or guardian

1) to give aid

d) to care for, give attention to

1) profess honest occupations

The verb form of the word is translated most frequently as "to rule" or "be over" others. Obviously this concept would not fit well with the idea of Phoebe as merely a humble female servant of the church, so this word gets translated as merely "helper".

But one needs to read these two terms together in the context of everything else Paul says about her. He is commending her or effectively assigning her to them. he says she is to be regarded and treated as a saint and anything she asks of them they are to do. That is setting her up as one in a position not as a servant there to be their helper or assistant but one they are to assist as one would a leader.

[Overaged]

Quote:

Quote:

1) a woman set over others

2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

Tom; this sounds like a Mother with her kids

[John317]

Paul's instructions in 1 Cor. 14: 30-39 and 1 Timothy 2: 8-15 show that Paul intended in "all the churches of the saints" that "your women [would] keep silent in the churches."

QUESTION: Do you have any evidence that Paul would give the above instuction at the same time that a woman was set over men, including over Paul, in a church only a few miles away from Corinth?

Originally Posted By: hamiton-beach

I have Jesus' word of praise that a publicly speaking woman, urging men of the city to come and hear Him...Does that count? See John 4.

No one is saying that women can't invite people to listen to Christ. The NT certainly allows women to serve in various church ministries. Both women and men are to be witnesses for Christ.

The Holy Spirit's instructions to the church do not say that women cannot point people to Christ. In fact, women have a positive obligation and responsibility to tell people of Jesus and of His salvation.

[John317]

There are many instances of Paul praising women who teach the truth such as Priscilla, see Acts 18:2,18,26; 1 Cor. 16:19; and Romans 16:3;

No one is saying that women can't teach the truth. Notice that Priscilla was not the pastor/minister or elder of a church. She and her husband worked together and taught people privately, not in public.

[John317]

Phoebe, a "diakonon" servant/minister in Romans 16:1,

This word may be translated in a variety ways, and simply means "one who renders service to another." In Matt. 20: 26; 22: 13; John 2: 5, 9, it refers to an "attendent, servant."

In Romans 16: 1, there's no reason to believe it is describing Phoebe as the minister of the local church at Cenchrea.

Remember Paul's instructions in 1 Cor. 14: 30-39 and 1 Timothy 2: 8-15 show that Paul intended that "your women [would] keep silent" "in all the churches of the saints." There's no evidence that the instruction is given because of a localized problem.

"Minister" and "servant" do not usually refer to the pastor of a church. Greek-English lexicons and many translations give "deacon" or "deaconess" as the translation of "diakonon" at Romans 16: 1.

[John317]

Junia in Romans 16:7, "outstanding among the apostles"

The phrase may just as well be translated as "well-known among the apostles" (as TEV and many other translations give it).

There's also the fact that the name "Junia" is often also translated as "Junias," as in the New American Standard Version.

Two other points about this verse we need to take into account is that Paul refers to Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners," which would indicate that these are two male relatives of Paul who were in prison with him for a time.

[John317]

Nympha, and "her house church"-- the only leader mentioned by name in Laodicea, Col. 4:15.

The fact that the church met at Nympa's house is no evidence that she was the leader of the church.

Originally Posted By: Hamilton-Beach

Also Euodia and Syntyche who "contended at my side in the cause of the gospel" verbally wrestling with unbelievers, Phil. 4:1-3.

Is there any reason to believe these women were the ministers/pastors/elders of the church?

Again, no one is claiming that women cannot teach people or proclaim Jesus to others.

[John317]

He hails many other women as co-workers in Christ Jesus. If Paul had issued a blanket edict against all women teaching everywhere Paul would have reprimanded these women instead of praising them!

Again, no one is claiming that women have no role in the teaching ministries of the church.

Originally Posted By: Hamilton-Beach

Look at the number of references that point to women who were leaders...the quality and number of these evidences show that women were valued and the church responded to thier calling....

Of course women are valued and the church responds to their calling. No one is claiming otherwise. The NT instructions regarding church organization call women to various ministries, including evangelism, Bible instructor, deaconess, women's ministries, etc.

All of your points are discussed at length on the other thread about women's ordination:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/350721.html

[John317]

Whatever one says, whatever one does, there is no way anyone can say Romans 16:1 unequivocally states that Phoebe was a minister of religion, a pastor...

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Then explain why this word is only translated in the NT as merely "servant" when used in the one time it is talking about a woman and in all other instances when diakonos is used in reference to man or men is translated as minister?

epaminondas is right, Tom. Virtually all Bible commentators and scholars are agreed on this. In fact, I don't know of any who claim that we can be certain from this verse that Phoebe was the minister/pastor of the church. It certainly appears to contradict the instructions that Paul gave to the Corinthian church in 1 Cor. 14: 33, 34, particularly since it was written the year before he wrote Romans 16: 1, and also because Cenchrea was only a few miles away from Corinth.

The word diakonos is not-- as you mistakenly claim-- translated as "merely servant" only when used of women.

Notice that diakonos is translated "servant" in John 12: 26; Matt. 20: 26; 22: 13; John 2: 5, 9.

Notice also that NASB translates diakonos as "deacons" in Phil. 1: 1; 1 Tim. 3: 8, 12.

Besides, Jesus did not indicate that being a "servant" was inferior to other work. Quite the contrary: Jesus Himself was a servant.

[Overaged]

quote=epaminondas]Whatever one says, whatever one does, there is no way anyone can say Romans 16:1 unequivocally states that Phoebe was a minister of religion, a pastor.../quote]

quote=Tom Wetmore] Then explain why this word is only translated in the NT as merely "servant" when used in the one time it is talking about a woman and in all other instances when diakonos is used in reference to man or men is translated as minister?

/quote]

epaminondas is right, Tom. Virtually all Bible commentators and scholars are agreed on this.

The word diakonos is not only translated as "merely servant" when used of women.

Besides, Jesus did not indicate that being a "servant" was inferior to other work. Quite the contrary: Jesus Himself was a servant.

But diakonos is translated "servant" in John 12: 26; Matt. 20: 26; 22: 13; John 2: 5, 9.

Notice that NASB translates diakonos as "deacons" in Phil. 1: 1; 1 Tim. 3: 8, 12.

[John317]

...

Quote:

Rom 16:1 And I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae:

I think the word, translated as "ministry" here would cover all the possibilities. What think ye?

Yes, she was clearly in the service, or in the ministry, of the church.

That translation is based on the Latin but I think it captures well the idea of the Greek at Romans 16: 1.

[John317]

The CEV version says it like this:

Rom 16:1 I have good things to say about Phoebe, who is a leader in the church at Cenchreae.

A "leader" does not need to be an ordained Pastor...

I agree. I think there's no doubt that Phoebe was considered as one of the leading members of the church at Cenchreae, a great role model for Christian women of any time.

[Tom Wetmore]

Oh what great lengths to explain away the role of women in the NT church...

Just like the great lengths to explain away the role of women in the early Adventist Church...

Keep those women in their place.

[Guest arnie]

1 Cor 14:33-35 As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home: for it is disgraceful for a woman to SPEAK IN THE CHURCH. 1 Timothy 2:12-13 - A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I DO NOT PERMIT A WOMAN TO TEACH OR HAVE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN; SHE MUST BE SILENT. For Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be kept safe through childbirth, if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

If this is not a cultural thing or something that has to do with social order, than the Adventist Church has erred and is presently doing so in a most profound way. We have a prophet who spoke many times in public and reproved men on more than one occasion. Women in this church are expected to lead out in Sabbath School and other programs which demands that they speak in public, in the church. If we take Paul's words to be contemporary for our day and time, how do we reconcile this? Is Paul making an exception in cases of being a prophet in the case of Ellen White and all offices which demand that women speak in the Sanctuary? He doesn't seem too in the above instruction. So, where does that leave us?

[Overaged]

Some of the ladies make some pretty strident efforts to keep the men in their place. (IMHO)

[Overaged]

Hey; have ya ever noticed? Women "reprove" men at home and on this forum too. You can't get away from it.

[John317]

... If we take Paul's words to be contemporary for our day and time, how do we reconcile this? Is Paul making an exception in cases of being a prophet in the case of Ellen White and all offices which demand that women speak in the Sanctuary? He doesn't seem too in the above instruction. So, where does that leave us?

All this was covered in depth on the other discussion about Women's Ordination, but we can go over the topic again here if you like.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/350721.html

Paul's instructions don't signify that women can never speak in public. In fact, Paul clearly shows in 1 Cor. 11: 5 that women are allowed to speak in church:

1 Cor. 11:5

but every wife [or woman] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven.

The point Paul is making is that women must be in subjection to male leadership of the church.

Remember that Paul's reasons for this have nothing to do with culture. It has everything to do with the way God created man and woman and the role that God wants man to play in the family and in the church.

Review what Paul writes in 1 Tim. 2: 12-14:

1 Tim. 2:11-14

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. [12] I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve; [14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

What is the emphasis?

What happened in Genesis 3 when woman became the teacher and man allowed the woman to exercise the authority that God had intended for the man?

[John317]

Keep those women in their place.

This is all about maintaining God's arrangement for the family and the church. God had a good reason for what He said. He knows humanity through and through.

Would you say the same thing to Paul? He wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit,

"If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized" (1 Cor. 14: 38, 39).