‘Variance’ for North American, Trans-European Division Fails

[Guest arnie]

Doug, If you mean jon in the SDA Church, the answer is "no". Church people are much harder to deal with than a coup full of chickens. I did not imply that some here made indications of banning women from jobs in the church. What I do mean, is that your job discription of women in the church is to be silent and leave the speaking to the guys and if that is the policy of this organization, then women are nuts to be involved in an executive or any other way because this does require action and the movement of lips. Executive positions(Conference & Union Presidents) are not availabe to women in the Church. Plain and simple. Like it or not, that is discrimination. Smart women would do well to occupy professional jobs outside the Church where there are laws to protect them from discriminatory attitudes and actions such as yours.

[doug yowell]

Doug, If you mean jon in the SDA Church, the answer is "no". Church people are much harder to deal with than a coup full of chickens.

Yeah, but they smell alot better.

[doug yowell]

Doug, I did not imply that some here made indications of banning women from jobs in the church. What I do mean, is that your job discription of women in the church is to be silent and leave the speaking to the guys and if that is the policy of this organization, then women are nuts to be involved in an executive or any other way because this does require action and the movement of lips.

I'm not following your reasoning here.You claim that you did not imply that some here (I'm here) wanted to ban women from jobs in the church and immediately follow by saying that my job description for women in the church is to exclude them from jobs requiring speaking and action. What other jobs require that the job holder not act or speak? First, your charge is again without basis since no one here has ever suggested such,much less me. Second, you have not yet answered why the list of "head leadership"(this does not include prophets)jobs in the Bible lack any inclusion of women? Do you think it was because women weren't as smart as men in those days?

[doug yowell]

Doug, Executive positions(Conference & Union Presidents) are not availabe to women in the Church. Plain and simple. Like it or not, that is discrimination.

I agree. But since God's word for His church has never before demanded an end to this practice but has rather encouraged it numerous times,I tend to believe that this kind of discrimination (like many other examples of discrimination)is in our best interest as a church.

[doug yowell]

Doug, Smart women would do well to occupy professional jobs outside the Church where there are laws to protect them from discriminatory attitudes and actions such as yours.

Smart women have always held professional (and otherwise)jobs outside the church and that's sometimes a good thing. Many smart women have held jobs inside the home where they feel perfectly well protected by "my"(??)discriminatory attitudes. If God's world was dependent upon the prowess of the intellect, the accomplishments of the flesh,the changing whims of society, and the power of the government then your point would be a good one for establishing church policies.

[doug yowell]

Hey doug, Your question,"Why did God not choose women apostles in Old & New Testament times"? Let's see, you listed just about every position except PROPHETS? I don't think the New Testament has any record of women prophets,though. O wait! He did choose one in the last century. What do ya suppose that means?

I know what it means. It means that the gift of prophesy was not like the other positions that were listed.The office of prophet has never been one that superceeded God's structural plan for His people.Miriam was a prophet but she was not the leader of Israel. Ellen White was a prophet but she was not the leader of SDAdventism. Deborah was a prophet but God called Barak to lead Israel into battle.Huldah was a prophet to which the king and priests went to, but she was not above the priest or king, Philip the evangelist was ordained a deacon and his 4 daughters prophesied but there's no mention of their being his authority. Add this same description to all the male prophets and you get the same result,the office of prophet is not the same as,say,the office of an apostle,or elder,ect...So how do you explain the complete absence of women in every other position?Particularly, Jesus missing His opportunity to get the ball rolling by failing to select even one woman to His inner circle of 12?

[doug yowell]

The ordination ceremony is a formal public recognition of a fact of the calling. The issuance of credential is a formal recognition of a fact of the calling. That the highest governing body of the Church took an official action to authorize the credential and in fact issued that credential is as much a public act of recognition of the fact of the calling as any ceremony or ritual of laying on of hands.

What calling do you think that credential recognized? She never functioned in the same fashion as anyone else in the church who was either ordained or credentialed. She never held or was voted onto any official position that required that same ceremony, was she? Wouldn't the equating of the ordaination and credential do away with the need of a separation of their individual meaning?

[Guest arnie]

There were no women prophets mentioned in the New Testament, . . .oh,woops, but now we have one. What happened there, Doug? Was that a worldly and whimsical decision? I think not. Many women have the calling to stay home and be great mothers. The important issue here is that it's a matter of choice. Women who answer God's call to be pastors and executives in this church and have a burning passion to do so, whether behind the pulpit or at a desk should be able too and have the same benefits and opportunities that others enjoy. Is that a worldly concept? I think not. If they have a calling, who are we to stand in their way? God does the choosing, we don't. He is the planner, we're not. I don't think for one minute that our God needs to practice indiscriminate and unfair behaviour to establish His Church, otherwise He wouldn't have chosen a woman named Ellen to lead this church.

[Guest arnie]

In regards to the 12 apostles,Well, I guess you could say that it would have been inappropriate for women to be traveling with 12 men and Christ would have never been accepted in that society traveling with 12 women. The work would have been hindered. This is a totally different world, Doug. God uses whatever measures He can to accomplish His ends. That's probably why He chose Ellen. As far as her functioning in the same capacity as the credentialed, of course she did. She preached in front of thousands. Let's not put God in a box.

[Tom Wetmore]

What calling do you think that credential recognized? She never functioned in the same fashion as anyone else in the church who was either ordained or credentialed. She never held or was voted onto any official position that required that same ceremony, was she? Wouldn't the equating of the ordaination and credential do away with the need of a separation of their individual meaning?

Obviously the calling the credential recognizes is precisely what it says on its face, that she was an ordained minister. What else could it possibly recognize! Just read it and see what it says.

And to say she never functioned in the same fashion as anyone else in the church who was ordained or credentialed is simple ignoring the facts. First of all saying "ordained or credentialed" as if it identifies two different alternatives is wrong since all who were ordained as ministers for the church also received a credential, the very same credential as was issued to EGW. The reason, to give them evidence that they could carry and show that they were in fact ordained ministers. They gave evidence of the same fact, that the person was recognized by the church as a minister of the gospel.

The function of a large percentage of the ministers of the church at the time she was issued that credential was for ministers traveling around preaching and teaching the gospel. They typically did not settle down to pastor a church as we would see today. Ellen White traveled the world and preached over 10,000 sermons in her lifetime. She met with and participated routinely in the leadership councils of the Church. She gave spiritual guidance and nurtured the whole church with her messages. She worked for the salvation of thousands. That sure sounds a lot like what ministers of the Church did in her day.

There seems to be a mistaken assumption that since she was a prophet she couldn't also be a minister or anything else. These are not exclusive categories. One can be both a minister and a prophet. Or a prophet and a leader of the church. Or a prophet and a teacher. Or all of the above at the same time.

[doug yowell]

I don't think for one minute that our God needs to practice indiscriminate and unfair behaviour to establish His Church, otherwise He wouldn't have chosen a woman named Ellen to lead this church.

And we wonder why SDA's still have a problem understanding the role of a prophet, and many refer to EGW as Pope. Using this kind of reasoning you'd think that the role of the prophet was the same as the role of the other founder,James White.Except that EGW's husband did hold a high church office and she never was even considered for one.Why not?

[doug yowell]

In regards to the 12 apostles,Well, I guess you could say that it would have been inappropriate for women to be traveling with 12 men and Christ would have never been accepted in that society traveling with 12 women. The work would have been hindered.

You haven't been carefully reading your Bible, Arnie. It has been well documented that women often accompanied Jesus and the 12(or more)apostles on tour. Peter also took his wife and there are many recorded women in the NT that supported Paul and others in their travels.Yet not one mention of one woman head pastor or apostle.If our roles as men and women are to be determined by how each society does or does not subjectively discriminate then I have no argument with your take.We used to teach that the Bible had the answer to every question in life, I tend to still believe that.Obviously you think that the Biblical record demonstrates a discriminating policy towards women. I don't think that that policy is destructive to the Christian family.

[Guest arnie]

Just like today. . . .she was WOMAN. . and I really do think that if she appeared as a prophet in our day, that you would never except her like many did in the 1880s

[Guest arnie]

I don't think Paul discriminated in New Testament times. Culture was different then and so were situations. I'm very familiar with the writings of the New Testament. Because of your unwillingness to think outside the box you will never be able to accept the fact that God is fair in all situations and works accordingly. When a system isn't working, He tries something else. In this case it was EG White. We've exhausted this subject. May God Bless

[Guest arnie]

PST: Doug, In regards to Ellen G. White and her high office, I have a document that shows she was an ordained minister and in the Testimonies she wrote letters to Ministers correcting them on their behaviour.

[John317]

I don't think the New Testament has any record of women prophets,though. O wait! He did choose one in the last century. What do ya suppose that means?

God is able to pick anyone He wants to speak for Him as His prophet or prophetess. That is different from humans picking women to be pastors or elders in the church. It would be like Israel believing it had a right to choose female priests because God chose women prophets or a woman judge.

But yes, the New Testament does contain evidence of female prophets:

Acts 2:17

" 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares,

that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

and your young men shall see visions,

and your old men shall dream dreams;

Acts 21:9

He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.

1 Cor. 11:5

but every wife [or woman] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven.

[John317]

In regards to Ellen G. White and her high office, I have a document that shows she was an ordained minister

Yes, we've discussed this at some length on the Forum.

Ellen was a prophet years before she received a minister's certificate. God called her when she was 17 years old, and she didn't receive a certificate of ministry until many years later. It was at first given to both her and to James White, but it was in James' name and he carried it. Later, after his death in 1881, the GC issued a certificate to Ellen White.

If you ask the EGW Estate, they will tell you that there's no evidence she was ever ordained by any human beings, and they will also tell you that she was given this certificate in order for the conferences to pay her travel expenses when she visited the churches. Also, when she traveled, it was important for her to have some official document identifying her as a church worker. They didn't have any office of "propehet," so they gave her a paper identifying her as a minister of the church.

Don't take my word for this. Ask the EGW Estate.

Originally Posted By: arnie

and in the Testimonies she wrote letters to Ministers correcting them on their behaviour.

Yes, Christ personally selected her as His special messenger, and one of her jobs was to write testimonies to some ministers. Ellen White did not always enjoy this aspect of her prophetic gift. In fact, she said she felt she would rather die than receive visions about some of the people she was asked to write to.

[John317]

I've talked to the Ellen G. White Estate about this, and according to them, the Certificate was given to Ellen White for financial reasons. The conferences paid for her travel expenses to visit the various churches, and therefore she needed to have an official certificate in order to receive reimbursment.

She received her individual certificate only after her husband died. The certificate had nothing to do with her prophetic ministry. She was a prophet long before she received any kind of certificate. There's no indication that there was ever an ordination ceremony when the leaders of the church officially recognized her as a prophet. She never needed such offical recognition, nor did she ever request it.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

As predicted...

What you "predicted" was about like my writing that the moon is made of cheese and then "predicting" that someone would dispute it. When you make a false argument, it's to be expected that someone will respond to it.

It's an invalid argument to make a connection between Ellen White's holding a minister's credential/license and women being an elder or head minister of a local church.

[John317]

There seems to be a mistaken assumption that since she was a prophet she couldn't also be a minister or anything else. These are not exclusive categories. One can be both a minister and a prophet. Or a prophet and a leader of the church. Or a prophet and a teacher. Or all of the above at the same time.

The fact is that she wasn't and never wanted to be both a minsiter and a prophet.

If she had been a man, it's likely she would have been. She never attempted to take the place of men in the church. They had their work and she had hers, and she didn't mix them. For instance, she never wanted to hold church office, and she showed that she recognized her husband's work was totally different from her's.

[John317]

I've talked to the Ellen G. White Estate about this, and according to them, the Certificate was given to Ellen White for financial reasons. The conferences paid for her travel expenses to visit the various churches, and therefore she needed to have an official certificate in order to receive reimbursment.

She received her individual certificate only after her husband died. The certificate had nothing to do with her prophetic ministry. She was a prophet long before she received any kind of certificate. There's no indication that there was ever an ordination ceremony when the leaders of the church officially recognized her as a prophet. She never needed such offical recognition, nor did she ever request it.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Interesting how this gets spun. Taking that "explanation" and comparing it to the actual language of the ordination credential makes it sound like they must have been intentionally deceitful. If she wasn't really an ordained minister as represented on the credential, it was done simply for money. Was the General Conference lying when it certified that she was an ordained minister? And why would they misrepresent EGW this way, if women were not accepted as being ordained? Why would a prophet of God agree to or even silently acquiesce in such a falsehood about herself? Why not simply provide an accurate letter of authorization or some other credential that designated her as an authorized person to speak and act on behalf of the General Conference? For her to pose as something that she really wasn't in order to get money just seems dishonest, don't you think? This was not the only way one could possibly get reimbursement for expenses. And it wasn't as if nobody knew who she was at that point in time that they would have needed such certification. What you said was not really correct anyway, but it just shows the lengths to which those opposed to women in pastoral ministry will go to explain this away. Who from the White Estate told you that?

Tom, call the Loma Linda branch of the EGW Estate. Or better yet, call William Fagal at the main office. Ask them the reason that Ellen White was given a minister's certificate long after God had called her as His prophet.

Also ask them if women should be able to work as church pastors and elders because Ellen White got a minsiter's certificate.

Is there any evidence that Ellen White was ordained by men?

You wrote the same here as you did on the long discussion about women's ministries in the church.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/350721.html

It's pure, unadulterated poppycock to (again) make it sound like Ellen White was participating in something dishonest simply because she accepted a minsiter's certificate for the reasons I outlined.

You'll need to take it up with the EGW Estate and the church historians.

[olger]

I believe that is true, John. Bill Fagal was very clear on that bit of history.

[Tom Wetmore]

Bill Fagal is very clear in his adamant opposition to women in ministry. I would not take his view unbiased.

He is very clear in expressing his interpretation of history.

[Twilight II]

I remember earlier someone trying to imply that "men do not suffer the toil of their hands" these days and therefore women should be "let off" their part of the edict...

But is that correct?

How many homes are under intense financial pressure right now?

With that thought in mind, that aspect of Gods edict still stands.

This life is a hard labour for most families.

The toil of the land is still in existance for the man of the home.

[Twilight II]

Bill Fagal is very clear in his adamant opposition to women in ministry. I would not take his view unbiased.

He is very clear in expressing his interpretation of history.

You are also clearly biased towards an anti-biblical secularised equality for women in spiritual leadership.

And you are applying your own interpretation to Ellen Whites situation...

Arguing bias does not give you the argument.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Bill Fagal is very clear in his adamant opposition to women in ministry. I would not take his view unbiased.

He is very clear in expressing his interpretation of history.

You are also clearly biased towards an anti-biblical secularised equality for women in spiritual leadership.

THat only reflects a biased interpretation of what I have posted by those who are biased against women in ministry. To describe my position as anti-Biblical requires one to ignore the numerous Biblical references I have posted in support of my views.

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

And you are applying your own interpretation to Ellen Whites situation...

Actually no. What interpretation does one give to the exceedingly plain language of that credential issued to EGW?!?! It is intended to be self-evident of what it certifies. That is the purpose of credentials. Kind of a "Duh!" moment. It requires no mental gymnastics to explain. But it does require such mental gyrations to explain it away.

And I am relying on church historians research and accounts of the facts as they were at the time, rather than putting a current anti-women in ministry spin. As I have said before, the percentage of women in ministry was substantially higher during EGW's lifetime and from the very beginning of our church than it is now. After EGW died, there was a significant decline in the number women in ministry. That is fact. No spin necessary.

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Arguing bias does not give you the argument.

If true, that would apply just as surely to your post about me being biased.