Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 23, 2011 Administrators Posted October 23, 2011 No, it's about maintaining a cultural standard of conduct and male/female relationships from another time and place. God meets people where they are and the Holy Spirit speaks to and through people within their particular cultural paradigm. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Neil D Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore Keep those women in their place. This is all about maintaining God's arrangement for the family and the church. God had a good reason for what He said. He knows humanity through and through. Would you say the same thing to Paul? He wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit, "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized" (1 Cor. 14: 38, 39). Yeah, I'm stupid enough to call Paul on the carpet for this inequity...And I am stupid enough to call into question his influence of a supposed Holy Spirit.... The attitude of Paul in the Epistles is difficult to determine because of the variety of teaching found there, given in response to specific situations. The key to his teaching is Gal.3:28, which states: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond or free, there is neither male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The context shows that Paul is speaking of the new relationship that comes through faith and Christian baptism. His use of "male" and "female" echoes Gen.1:27, where both man and woman are made in God’s image. And this passage doesn’t say that this will take place in the future, but speaks in the present tense! Here we have the abolition not of sexual differences between men and women but the abolition of their religious inequality. Paul’s recognition of women as full members of the Christian community is further illustrated by his affectionate greetings to them, i.e., "the beloved Persis" (Rom.16:2); "Apphia our sister" (Philem.2); Rufus’ mother, "a mother to me, too" (Rom.16:13); and more importantly his references to them as fellow workers. Phoebe (Rom.16:1-) is described as a diakonos, a deacon or "minister," "servant" of the church at Cenchreae (1 Tim.3:8; Phil.1:1; Eph. 6:21; Col. 1:7; etc); and as Paul’s "patroness" (Greek prostatis... "Leader," or "chief"). Priscilla, Mary, Tryphaena, Tryphosa, Euodia, and Syntyche are all described as fellow workers or laborers in the Gospel. Since Paul is clearly in favor of women equality and leadership, according to the scriptures, I now turn to your twisting of the scriptures...and putting words in Pauls mouth that were never quiet there.... So, explain to me why Paul wrote the way he did in 1 Corth.11:2-16; 14:31-35 .....can you give a historical viewpoint as to why he wrote what he did? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Neil D Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 No one is saying that women can't invite people to listen to Christ. The NT certainly allows women to serve in various church ministries. Both women and men are to be witnesses for Christ. The Holy Spirit's instructions to the church do not say that women cannot point people to Christ. In fact, women have a positive obligation and responsibility to tell people of Jesus and of His salvation. "Invite"???? yeah, I supposed when you get a lot of men together, the word 'invitation' might come into play. From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed because of His word; 42 and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.” .. Anyone want to guess how many are mentioned here? more than 25 but less than 100? How do you reach all those people in a short time? Do you preach? Do you teach? She did both to men.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
doug yowell Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 God meets people where they are and the Holy Spirit speaks to and through people within their particular cultural paradigm. But what you are suggesting is that the Holy Spirit is speaking through people to change the existing paradigm that the church has followed to mirror that which a segment of the secular society determines. Most countries still follow that social order which you reject as today's standard. Even in contemporary religious communities the majority still follow that another time another place paradigm. The overwhelming majority of evangelical,Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic,Reform,conservative/orthodox Jewish,ect...churches don't accept the secular standard as their rule of conduct. Additionally even Seventh-day Adventists in both NA and Europe are divided over the spiritual and biblical implications. And we do not mention the even greater gulf between our modern western culture and the culture of the Muslim world and many Asian cultures.God meets people where they are culturally He does not attempt to force change upon them at the risk of dividing His worldwide church into a conglomeration of self-centered cultural entities. Quote
Neil D Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Hamilton-Beach There are many instances of Paul praising women who teach the truth such as Priscilla, see Acts 18:2,18,26; 1 Cor. 16:19; and Romans 16:3; No one is saying that women can't teach the truth. Notice that Priscilla was not the pastor/minister or elder of a church. She and her husband worked together and taught people privately, not in public. And the custom is that the more important person is the first person to be mentioned in a team..... But according to YOUR interpetation of Pauls words 11 (V)A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 (W)But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 ( It was Priscilla who taught Apollo....and if your interpretation of Paul were to hold together, then Priscilla should be censored for violating the Holy Spirit's command. But it wasn't that way.... So, now you must explain why this instruction was given the way it was given...The historical context....PLease... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
doug yowell Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 No, it's about maintaining a cultural standard of conduct and male/female relationships from another time and place. And what do you think is responsible for creating and maintaining that standard? And where did that time and place begin? "If it ain't broke..." Or maybe it's about a group of progressive thinkers who think that God's "curse" after the fall was actually destructive to human societies and are doing their best to straighten things out for Him? Quote
doug yowell Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 And the custom is that the more important person is the first person to be mentioned in a team..... That's just down right ridiculus! Pricilla's name is always mentioned in conjunction with her husband Aquilla. The two names occur 6 times in the Bible. 3 times Aquilla's name is first mentioned, 3 times Pricilla's.Using your creative interpretation of first mentioned being most important we should all be Roman Catholic. Peter,James,and John. Your post seems to imply that Aquilla sat passively nearby making his tents while Pricilla "explained the way of God more accurately." And this even though Aquilla's name is mentioned first!(Acts 18:26) Quote
doug yowell Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 ["Invite"???? From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed because of His word; 42 and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.” .. Anyone want to guess how many are mentioned here? more than 25 but less than 100? How do you reach all those people in a short time? Do you preach? Do you teach? She did both to men.... Yes, invite.Why did you leave out the beginning of her testimony? "Come and see a Man who told me all things I ever did.Could this be the Christ?" ..."And many believed because of His own word." So why is this not an invitation to hear Jesus preach? Giving one's personal testimony is not the same as telling someone how they should otherwise live their lives.Every true Christian does the same thing but is not considered a teacher of others.but notice Who did the teaching that convinced the men that the testimony of the woman was now their testimony? Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 23, 2011 Administrators Posted October 23, 2011 Sounds like they may have been viewed as equals. The custom is well known and not ridiculous. How about showing us another married couple in Scripture where the wife is identified first on even one occasion. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Neil D Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Hamilton-Beach Phoebe, a "diakonon" servant/minister in Romans 16:1, This word may be translated in a variety ways, and simply means "one who renders service to another." In Matt. 20: 26; 22: 13; John 2: 5, 9, it refers to an "attendent, servant." Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
doug yowell Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Sounds like they may have been viewed as equals. The custom is well known and not ridiculous. So Peter is more important than John? Quote
Neil D Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach Anyone want to guess how many are mentioned here? more than 25 but less than 100? How do you reach all those people in a short time? Do you preach? Do you teach? She did both to men.... Yes, invite.Why did you leave out the beginning of her testimony? "Come and see a Man who told me all things I ever did.Could this be the Christ?" ..."And many believed because of His own word." So why is this not an invitation to hear Jesus preach? Giving one's personal testimony is not the same as telling someone how they should otherwise live their lives.Every true Christian does the same thing but is not considered a teacher of others.but notice Who did the teaching that convinced the men that the testimony of the woman was now their testimony? The point here is that in one afternoon, many men came...Granted, there is an invitation...but it can not be done on a one to one basis in ONE AFTERNOON....let alone a couple of hours...That is why I asked how many men were told of this incident? And in all honesty, a "testomony" is a teaching....in the sense that what Christ has done for one, He can do for you.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
doug yowell Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 How about showing us another married couple in Scripture where the wife is identified first on even one occasion. Not exactly sure why this applies to the more importance question since Pricilla is only mentioned first half of the time but I can only think of two right off the top of my head if we don't include every husband/wife mentioned in the Bible. What are you looking for? Quote
doug yowell Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 The point here is that in one afternoon, many men came...Granted, there is an invitation...but it can not be done on a one to one basis in ONE AFTERNOON....let alone a couple of hours...That is why I asked how many men were told of this incident? And in all honesty, a "testomony" is a teaching....in the sense that what Christ has done for one, He can do for you.... But nobody is disputing that. Women tell women women tell men men tell men men tell women.If that's the definition were at odds over then everybody should qualify as a minister of the gospel and we need no recognition of any kind by the organized church to preach it! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 23, 2011 Moderators Posted October 23, 2011 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 23, 2011 Moderators Posted October 23, 2011 No, it's about maintaining a cultural standard of conduct and male/female relationships from another time and place. God meets people where they are and the Holy Spirit speaks to and through people within their particular cultural paradigm. But don't you believe that the Holy Spirit will always agree with what He has inspired God's prophets and apostles to write and say before? Was Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he wrote 1 Cor. 11- 14, 1 Timothy 2,etc.? What are the underlying principles in those verses which you believe ought to be followed by the modern SDA church? Your argument here is similar to the argument some people give when they urge that we don't need to obey the laws against pre-marital sex, homosexuality, Sabbath-keeping, etc. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 23, 2011 Moderators Posted October 23, 2011 Paul wrote under the influence of the Holy Spirit, "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized" (1 Cor. 14: 38, 39). Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach Yeah, I'm stupid enough to call Paul on the carpet for this inequity...And I am stupid enough to call into question his influence of a supposed Holy Spirit.... Are you serious? I ask this because many people don't accept what Paul said in 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2. Would you be willing to jettison what Paul wrote, all in order to do what you think is right in the matter of men and women's roles in the church? Should the SDA church ignore Paul's statements in 1 Cor. 14? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 23, 2011 Moderators Posted October 23, 2011 ] Originally Posted By: Hamilton-Beach Phoebe, a "diakonon" servant/minister in Romans 16:1, This word may be translated in a variety ways, and simply means "one who renders service to another." In Matt. 20: 26; 22: 13; John 2: 5, 9, it refers to an "attendent, servant." Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach Aren't you being a bit shoddy in your translation of the Greek? Strongs says that it also references- "specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess):--deacon, minister, servant." Please, don't be shoddy in your work...[of course, I could say that you are twisting things, but why add insult to injury?] Let me ask you a serious question: Have you studied koine Greek? If so, for how long? The definition of diakonon as "one who renders service to another" was taken from a well-known Greek-English lexicon and dictionary by William D. Mounce. This is in complete agreement with all Greek-English lexicons. Most Greek words may be translated in a variety of ways, depending on the context. It's true that diakonon may refer to a Christian minister but it may also refer to a deacon or even simply a servant or attendent. These various shades of meanings of diakonon occur in the New Testament. The noun diakonon is related to the verb "to serve" (Gk diakoneo) (Strongs #1247). Diakoneo is used in Acts 6: 2-- Acts 6:2 And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve [Gk diakoneo] tables. The NIV translates it "to wait on tables." This was the original purpose of the deacons. The TEV correctly translates it "to handle finances." Stephen was selected as a deacon in order to help handle the finances so that the disciples could give their full attention to the gospel. We could say Stephen was a minister or servant, but readers might get the wrong idea from such a translation. 1 Tim. 3:10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons [Gk diakoneo] if they prove themselves blameless. 1 Tim. 3:13 For those who serve well as deacons [Gk diakoneo] gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. 1 Peter 4:11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves [Gk diakoneo], as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister[Gk diakoneo], let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 23, 2011 Moderators Posted October 23, 2011 In Romans 16: 1, there's no reason to believe it is describing Phoebe as the minister of the local church at Cenchrea. Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach But that is just it...It DOES describe Phoebe as a minister of a local church congregation in Cenchrea....Now, you are denying the facts before you.... Actually, it says that this person is a diakonion in the church at Cenchrea. The question is, what exactly is a diakonion in this context? The word itself can mean different things. It can mean "servant, attendent, minister, deacon," etc. Therefore, again, what is your reason for believing that Romans 16: 1 means that Phoebe is THE minister/pastor of the church at Cenchrea? Please consider the fact that many excellent translations do not give "minister" as the translation in Romans 16: 1. Some do but many more do not. TEV has "serves the church." NIV renders it "a servant." ESV-- I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae KJV-- I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 23, 2011 Moderators Posted October 23, 2011 In Romans 16: 1, there's no reason to believe it is describing Phoebe as the minister of the local church at Cenchrea. Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach But that is just it...It DOES describe Phoebe as a minister of a local church congregation in Cenchrea....Now, you are denying the facts before you.... If Paul was consistent, it would be hard to argue that Paul told the Corinthians and other churches to let the women in the church "keep silent" at the same time that a woman only about 6 miles away is the church pastor/minister. How do you explain this? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Oh what great lengths to explain away the role of women in the NT church... Just like the great lengths to explain away the role of women in the early Adventist Church... Keep those women in their place. What great lengths to try to add a feminist secular ideology to the Bible. Just like the great lengths to try to persuade people that Sunday is the Lords Day... Quote
Twilight II Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Some of the ladies make some pretty strident efforts to keep the men in their place. (IMHO) Indeed. I have sat on a fair few board meetings where strong willed women will try to rule over the male leaders. Even to the point where I had to publically rebuke a woman member who was disrespectful to the head elder. I have seen this problem over and over. This is what happens when Gods judgement is ignored by the men and women of the church. Or we are "socially blackmailed" into accepting this feminist agenda. Usually with statement like: "You are trying to keep women in their place with male bigotry" etc... Quote
Twilight II Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 No, it's about maintaining a cultural standard of conduct and male/female relationships from another time and place. God meets people where they are and the Holy Spirit speaks to and through people within their particular cultural paradigm. There were no "cultural" issues when God set this standard up. It was ordained in the Garden of Eden. Unless you are implying that God is subject to human culture even when there was no human culture for Him to be subject to... Totally illogical argument. Face it Tom. There were no cultural issues in the Garden of Eden. And Spirit led men have pointed back to that judgement over and over, aka Pauls writings. Now if you think you have the authority to rescind Gods judgement on the matter based on your "cultural" ideals, then you have a very big problem on your hands. Quote
Twilight II Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach ["Invite"???? From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 Many more believed because of His word; 42 and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.” .. Anyone want to guess how many are mentioned here? more than 25 but less than 100? How do you reach all those people in a short time? Do you preach? Do you teach? She did both to men.... Yes, invite.Why did you leave out the beginning of her testimony? "Come and see a Man who told me all things I ever did.Could this be the Christ?" ..."And many believed because of His own word." So why is this not an invitation to hear Jesus preach? Giving one's personal testimony is not the same as telling someone how they should otherwise live their lives.Every true Christian does the same thing but is not considered a teacher of others.but notice Who did the teaching that convinced the men that the testimony of the woman was now their testimony? I think some on here would have us believe that just the mention of a Womans name in the New Testament is evidence that women were ordained Pastors/Ministers... Its amazing what a securalised bias will draw on to prove itself. Quote
Twilight II Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach The point here is that in one afternoon, many men came...Granted, there is an invitation...but it can not be done on a one to one basis in ONE AFTERNOON....let alone a couple of hours...That is why I asked how many men were told of this incident? And in all honesty, a "testomony" is a teaching....in the sense that what Christ has done for one, He can do for you.... But nobody is disputing that. Women tell women women tell men men tell men men tell women.If that's the definition were at odds over then everybody should qualify as a minister of the gospel and we need no recognition of any kind by the organized church to preach it! Dont you know? Mary Magdelane saw the risen Christ and told the other apostles. Therefore she was the Pope and women should be allowed to lead our progressive church... Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.