Halloween, Christmas, and other holidays.

[AllenEHoessli]

I don't know how to think about Christians and their participation in certain holidays through the year. For example, most Christians will agree that Halloween is a holiday that should be avoided altogether. After all, Halloween is "All Hallows Eve". I remember that from before I was a Christian and a practicing witch. So, for Halloween, avoid paganism. That's easy...

What about Christmas? It has been always told me since I became an Adventist that if we are to celebrate the day of Christ's birth on Christmas, then we are to avoid all the pagan trappings of the holiday by eliminating things like Santa Claus, elves, and whatever else comes with the holiday that is not related to Christ.

Then, Easter. We know pretty confidently that Easter is around the time that Christ died for the sins of the world...but, have you ever noticed that Easter doesn't always fall on the same week as passover. As we know, Christ was the passover lamb sacrificed just at the same time that the literal lamb was to be sacrificed on the passover week.

Now, we all know that Christmas is really "Christ Mass" invented by the Catholic church and is based on a pagan religion. If we avoid all the pagan trappings of Christmas, would it make it anymore of a Christian day? That's like saying that we will remove all the pagan trappings of Halloween to make it a Christian holiday.

I guess I don't know what to think. I don't believe that Halloween should be celebrated because of obvious reasons. But, if we avoid the pagan trappings of Easter and Christmas, does that really make it any more of a Christian holiday? Why don't we avoid it altogether?

[olger]

Always good to see a fellow Buckeye.

As to holidays, the only one that means anything to my wife and I, is Thanksgiving !! Great times.

`G

[fccool]

Quote:

I don't know how to think about Christians and their participation in certain holidays through the year. For example, most Christians will agree that Halloween is a holiday that should be avoided altogether. After all, Halloween is "All Hallows Eve". I remember that from before I was a Christian and a practicing witch. So, for Halloween, avoid paganism. That's easy...

I think you are mistaken celebrating tradition that looses its meaning, with the actual thing.

For example, you don't avoid calling the days of the weeks which were named after pagan gods. Neither you avoid calling the months which derive from Roman emperors, who were considered gods. These are traditions that no longer mean anything but the occasion.

If we examine hallowin, it's merely a costume party with lack of traditional understanding. That's all it is. You may disagree, and I understand why, because I was thinking along the same lines... but a way down that path is a slippery slope of double-standards. For example, the modern wedding that most Christians go through is a pagan tradition, the way it is conducted today. Should we do away with it and do it the Jewish way?

There's a bit of great concepts in any problematic idea. You don't have to be a witch to enjoy cultural aspects of Halloween.

Quote:

What about Christmas? It has been always told me since I became an Adventist that if we are to celebrate the day of Christ's birth on Christmas, then we are to avoid all the pagan trappings of the holiday by eliminating things like Santa Claus, elves, and whatever else comes with the holiday that is not related to Christ.

Christmas originally was not a celebration of Christ, but of sun-god Dammuz, or Tammuz. He was though to be re-born every Dec 24th cycle as it is both the longest night, and the beginning of new solar cycle. It has nothing to do with Christ's birth, other than the date slapped by the church to bring pagans in and to reconcile some religious aspects of sun worship and Christianity. That dates back to Constantine.

Christ was more likely to be born in either summer or fall. There's no way in this world the shepherds would be tending their sheep in December.

Once again, if you get passed all of the traditional mumbo-jumbo, then it only becomes an excuse for families to get together and celebrate certain ideals. You don't have to throw out baby with bath-water.

Quote:

Then, Easter. We know pretty confidently that Easter is around the time that Christ died for the sins of the world...but, have you ever noticed that Easter doesn't always fall on the same week as passover. As we know, Christ was the passover lamb sacrificed just at the same time that the literal lamb was to be sacrificed on the passover week.

Easter is a pagan spring and fertility festival that revolves around cycles. That's why there's no set date, bunnies, and cakes with a cross.

Easter was named after Summerian goddess Ishtar, goddess of love and fertility. Traditions that sprung around the celebration ended up revolving around a bunny, and resurrection of Christ (which obviously took place on a set date).

Once again, if your conscience is not clear about it, you should not participate in mixed traditional celebration. I don't for various reasons. But, it's a choice and understanding of people.

Quote:

Now, we all know that Christmas is really "Christ Mass" invented by the Catholic church and is based on a pagan religion. If we avoid all the pagan trappings of Christmas, would it make it anymore of a Christian day? That's like saying that we will remove all the pagan trappings of Halloween to make it a Christian holiday.

Paganism is not necessarily about certain dates and traditions. It's about principles that underline these traditions that people understand and follow.

To say that kids are celebrating the "Hallow's eve" with all it's pagan principles is like atheists celebrating a communion.

If beliefs are detached from the activity, then it becomes different activity. Halloween merely becomes a costume candy-demanding party for kids. Christmas becomes excuse for family to show appreciation and understanding by exchanging gifts.

Quote:

I guess I don't know what to think. I don't believe that Halloween should be celebrated because of obvious reasons. But, if we avoid the pagan trappings of Easter and Christmas, does that really make it any more of a Christian holiday? Why don't we avoid it altogether?

Once again, most of the people don't celebrate the Halloween. They are not druids and witches. They celebrate the commercial fun-day that revolves around certain concepts.

We can go as far as JWs do, and not celebrate anything at all. For them, if it has even a hint of human tradition, it would mean that it's polluted and ungodly. People need reasons to do something fun. It does not have to carry the ideals of the original holidays, just like we forgotten the gods that our days and months are named after.

[ClubV12]

"We can go as far as JWs do, and not celebrate anything at all."

...may be there onto something there.

[fccool]

Lol, I'll hook you up with a friend who'll be happy to save you a seat in kingdom hall, and tell you all about the next date set for the end of the world.

[AllenEHoessli]

Buckeye...but not to be mistaken for a Buckeye fan. I'm not that much into sports.

[AllenEHoessli]

Yeah...they are known for setting dates about Christ's return. I remember one in particular back in the early 1900s that he was suppose to return. When the day came to pass, they started a doctrine that Jesus came back secretly to establish his kingdom on earth first. In my opinion, the doctrine was just created to save face.

[AllenEHoessli]

Just because people don't know the history of something doesn't mean that it makes it right.

What if a child was raised believing that it was moral to murder someone once a year during a full moon in October. Suppose he had never learned anything else from anyone. Since he believes it and because of his lack of knowledge...it doesn't take away from the fact that it is murder...and it is wrong.

If that idea held true, then why is it such an issue that people are no longer keeping Sunday as the Sabbath? Though people keep Sunday, it is still a sin because they are keeping the wrong day and defying God's Sabbath commandment.

I have talked at length with some Sunday keepers asking why it is that they keep Sunday holy who told me that it was because God said that the Seventh-day is the Sabbath and Sunday is that seventh-day. Obviously that is not correct...doesn't make it right. Or, why would it be so important that we get people to understand the truth about the false sabbath and directing them to God's Sabbath?

[fccool]

We are not talking about murder or Sabbath. We are talking about dressing up in silly costumes and going around asking for candy .

[Tallmark]

I celebrate Thanksgiving. Which is every day for me.

[GoLions]

Great question, It's the same question I've been asking (at least myself) for years. Here's what I've figured out so far. Those who say, don't worry about it, just join in the fun, don't be a fuddy duddy. Are wrong. Sorry for not sugar coating that. Also, those who run and hide under a rock when those days come up are wrong also. There is a happy medium, I really don't quite know how to explain it. Except to say that, use every opportunity you have to share the good news. That is that Jesus died on the cross, to save us from our sins. Keep the commandments, because you love him, and that he is coming again soon. Keep it simple. You will make mistakes, but learn from them. You already asking questions that most people never think to ask. That doesn't make them bad, just uniformed. Pick your battles, you wont convert someone because your ideas are better then theirs, but because of your love for them. Make friends not debate partners. Dont partake of their sins, but dont give up an opportunity to witness to them where they are.

[Neil D]

Hmmmm.....so what I am hearing overall in this thread, is that we don't want anything to do with evil.....we don't want to act as a pagan or worse a psuedo christian....as if anything of pagan origion were to automatically contaminate us or impell us to be evil...

I would like to ask a question.....why?

Why do we feel that behavior of others will contaminate our relationship with God....

Remember, what we see, will affect our thinking, our thinking will affect our feelings and what we feel will affect our behavior....

if we think that Halloween is evil, we will ultimately reject the holiday and absolutely refuse to celebrate it..If we think that it's a community day where we interact [share some fun] with our neighbors , then we will participate in the celebration..

If we think that Christmas is evil/of pagan origins, then you will avoid that day..like many JWs do..If you think that it can be a Christian Holiday, then you will observe it in relation to Christ's Birth...a birthday celebration...

If we think that Easter is of evil/pagan origin, then you will ignore that day...If you think that it's about Christ's death and [most of all] His resurrection, then you will observe it.....

It occurs to me that the holidays mentioned here, are observed, by the community at large, in innocence....Holloween, is a day where we dress up and become someone else...We all want to be someone else, many want to be scary...some immulate a hero....How many of us want to be like Jesus?.....I'm just askin'.....

It occurs to me that Christmas is a day of gratefulness, where the time of solace, while not observed now, is a time where greater sunlight comes to our hemisphere. It is a time of great hope, a time where the ground will get warm, and brings the promise of spring. What else was came to us, while we were in great darkness, and gave us great promise? It was NOT a WHAT, but rather a WHO....So why not celebrate Christ birth? His birth came when we were in great darkness, and He gave great light to our world...Our world, now, celebrates Christmas, and it's a great time for many....or a great time of darkness for those without family....What is wrong with celebrating Christ with those without family? Those who are alone...or feel that way? There are great miracles that happen during that time....if you listen for them....

This post is becoming a tome...my point is that you may have a wrong picture of God. Even your relationship with God and how you relate to your community [because of that relationship] may be in error...some of you are in Adventist ghettos, or worse, you are alone [and bitter] and refuse to interact with your community and share your Christianity....These days are community days to interact with your community...What are you doing with this oppertunity?

[Parade Orange]

i get to hear this argument every holiday season coming up

lol u folks are putting on a another show

funny

[M. T. Cross]

"We can go as far as JWs do, and not celebrate anything at all."

...may be there onto something there.

Well there you go, cause pagans are not real big fans of having their holidays stolen and reconstructed under a different religion anyways.

[FLO]

I don't know how to think about Christians and their participation in certain holidays through the year. For example, most Christians will agree that Halloween is a holiday that should be avoided altogether. After all, Halloween is "All Hallows Eve". I remember that from before I was a Christian and a practicing witch. So, for Halloween, avoid paganism. That's easy...

What about Christmas? It has been always told me since I became an Adventist that if we are to celebrate the day of Christ's birth on Christmas, then we are to avoid all the pagan trappings of the holiday by eliminating things like Santa Claus, elves, and whatever else comes with the holiday that is not related to Christ.

Then, Easter. We know pretty confidently that Easter is around the time that Christ died for the sins of the world...but, have you ever noticed that Easter doesn't always fall on the same week as passover. As we know, Christ was the passover lamb sacrificed just at the same time that the literal lamb was to be sacrificed on the passover week.

Now, we all know that Christmas is really "Christ Mass" invented by the Catholic church and is based on a pagan religion. If we avoid all the pagan trappings of Christmas, would it make it anymore of a Christian day? That's like saying that we will remove all the pagan trappings of Halloween to make it a Christian holiday.

I guess I don't know what to think. I don't believe that Halloween should be celebrated because of obvious reasons. But, if we avoid the pagan trappings of Easter and Christmas, does that really make it any more of a Christian holiday? Why don't we avoid it altogether?

Both Christmas and Easter are pagan in nature and just as evil as Halloween. The only difference is that Christmas and Easter have been white-washed and watered down a bit more so that it's not that obvious as is the case with Halloween. But then again, all someone has to do is come up with a non-sense reason to justify observing Halloween. For example, someone can just say "Jesus' first miracle of turning water into wine was around Halloween, so let's celebrate it to honour Christ's miracle and not the Pagan devil worship it's been all these years". That's exactly the type of thing that has happened with both Christmas and Easter. Neither of those festivals have anything to do with the Messiah.

If you want more info on Christmas and Easter, check out these two websites for more details:

www.EasterTruth.info

www.ChristmasTruth.info

If you want to find out about Festivals that were actually celebrated by the Messiah and actually teach about Him and His plan of salvation, then read Leviticus 23. You can check out this website for more details on that as well:

www.LawInColossians.com

[SivartM]

Both Christmas and Easter are pagan in nature and just as evil as Halloween.

So the rationale is that anything with pagan origins is evil? That would include the names of the days of the week, the calendar, the decimal system, the Latin alphabet, the English language itself (and most other languages), a lot of traditional cuisines and art styles, and the democratic system. And I think Steve Jobs was a Buddhist, so if that counts then Apple products are out (we can forget that Bill Gates is an atheist).

I think that the modern significance of a ritual is a lot more important to most people than the ancient significance of a ritual. You seem keen on using new and non-Christian technology to experience your Christian faith on the internet; maybe you could cut some slack for a few well-established holidays.

[cardw]

All of these pagan holidays had functional reasons. They are all based on astrological signs of the seasons. They helped in the planning for harvest, planting, storing for winter, and other practical things that had to be done based on the time of year.

Reading the sky was one of the first technological advances of civilization. The priesthood around it was the science of the time. Calendars and time keeping were essential parts of survival. It would make sense that a civilization would want to dedicate a priesthood to keep track of this information.

Christians often equate paganism with some deep dark plot by Satan to corrupt when in fact it is simply a natural evolution of human understanding and development. And it is natural that stories and explanations would emerge to try and make sense of what was played out on the night sky. There was no electric light pollution at night so everywhere on the planet you could see the vivid march of the Zodiac across the sky.

Since these understandings where well known by most of the civilization in the 1st century Jesus had to be connected to these events to be taken seriously. John the Baptist is born on June 6, the Summer Solstice and Jesus is born on Dec 25th the Winter solstice. John is the mid year sun and Jesus is the New sun. Hence Jesus, the new sun, must increase and I, the old sun, must decrease.

There is a lot of astro-theology connected with Jesus. It is so deeply entrenched that you even have early Church fathers referring to Jesus as the SUN of god because Plato considered the SUN the SON of the unknown god.

In paganism you don't have a male god as the origin of life because early humans saw that life clearly came from women. So, since you had to have an original creator, Isis had to be a virgin giving birth without a male. And Isis is the model for Mary the virgin. Isis birthed the SUN and was a perpetual virgin by right of her self creation.

Yahweh was a theological counter to the goddess. It was a counter narrative that stated that the creator god was a male, not a female.

It would make sense that hunter, raider, gatherers like the Israelites would emphasize the war like survival skill of males and see their god as male. Just like civilizations like Egypt, which emphasized agriculture would see an emphasis on reproduction and see their creator goddess as female.

[Kevin H]

In recent years there have been more discoveries in the ancient world about the orgin of Christmas, things about Easter, and also the Biblical feasts of the land and circumcision that all play a part in this. This knowlege is starting to trickel down but the traditons we have all grown up with are hard to die even as we learn more facts.

A church historical study that was done in if I remember correctly, the 1700s came to the conclusion that the church began to cellebrate December 25 for Christmas in the 4th century when Constantine made Christianity a legal religion and to make it easier for the pagans to accept Christianity they used the holiday of the birthday of Mithras, another popular pagan religion at the time. This had become the "official" history of Christmas and what most of us were taught while growing up and what has brought a lot of the controversy about Christmas.

However education did not end in the 1700s. People have been continuing to study and more discoveries have been made. I first learned about this in either the 2001, 2002 or 2003 Bible Review, and there is another article that is harder to follow but gives more of the evidence in Biblical Archaeology Review just about a year or two ago. http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/christmas.asp and slowly the newer studies are trickling down and starting to come out in sermons and being taught in schools.

While some of the trappings of Christmas came from paganism and after Constantine Christmas became a much more popular holiday, there were Christians cellebrating Jesus Birth on December 25 in the third century, a century before they were supose to in the popular tradition, one hundred years before Constantine. And it was based on a second century holiday, the feast of the annunciation. Which was based on a Jewish tradition.

Now this new understanding does not make December 25 the date, and it is a sad orgin as it was trying to "One up" Judaism. Jewish tradition said that you should expect good things at Passover. That it was Passover that Sarah consevived Isaac and that it was 9 months later that he was born and that it was another Passover that Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Moriah planing to sacrifice him but that God stopped him and provided a substitutionary sacrifice.

in 135 AD the Church and Synogogue split into 2 religions. It was like a divorce with anger and pain on both sides and a lot of one uping each other. Durning this time the church began teaching that Isaac was a type of Christ, and that as Isaac was conseveived on Passover, so Jesus entered Mary on Passover and born 9 months ater just like Isaac was, and just as Isaac was taken to Mt. Moriah to be sacrificed on Passover, Isaac was not sacrificed because he was only a type, not the real promised child who was the true sacrifice provided by God and thus Jesus died on Passover.

For a while the feast of the annunciation would fall on passover. But as the Church and Synogogue split the church gave up the Jewish callender and one year Passover fell on March 25 and there after they would celebrate the feast of the Annunciation n March 25. The following century they added 9 months to March 25 and started to celebrate Jesus' birth 9 months later on December 25. These happened one and two hundred years before Constantine and by people who wanted nothing to do with paganism.

Now as for Mithras' birthday; we are finding that before Constantine it was not a major holiday even in the religion and they did not have a set date, it was after Constantine that the worshipers of Mithras made a big deal out of December 25, thus rather than taking December 25 from Mithras and applying it to Jesus it appears that at best it was a day both held in common, but there is evidence that the worshipers of Mithras took the day that was seen as Jesus' birthday and applied it to Mithras.

[Kevin H]

The Biblical feasts, such as Passover, day of Atonement, Penticost, Tabernacals, feasts of the first fruits etc. were based on the agracultural cycle of Canaan and was cellebrated by the Canaanites centuries before Abraham. At Passover they ate unlevened bread. At the day of Atonement they would have the two goates one sacrificed to the gods and the other bearing the sins away, with prayers that the gods would do an investigative judgement to see if the prayers of the people should receive a positive answer and get the god's blessings. They also saw this as involved with Baal's conflect over the Leviathan and they felt that if it was famine that Baal had lost in that cycle and if good crops that Baal succeeded in that cycle and that they could help Baal out by uniting their life forces... i.e. having orgies where they would have sex all together, men, women, children, animals and would mix different grans and different textiles. Also a majority of the Canaanites circumcised themselves.

The Biblical feasts took the agricultural cycle feasts of the land but removed the origies and instead taught that you can not help the gods but to simply trust that Yahweh was in complete control in the struggle over evil and that Yahweh would investigate us and give us blessings. Our job was to just rest in him. The Canaanites saw the Hebrew celebrations as a mockery of religion-- that they would celeberate their holy days but worship a nothing and refuse to unite their life forces to help the gods of life.

Now for circumcision. In the ancient covenants, part of it would be some physical mark on the body. Abraham and his family would have expected it. What would God want? Cut of the tip of a finger? Cut off an ear lobe? God did not require a physical mark but Abraham would have expected something. So since he was living in a culture where most of the people circumcised themselves and thus would have probably picked up that tradition anyway, so God let that be the physical mark on the body for the convenant. And why we did not need to continue as the culture changed.

[FLO]

Originally Posted By: FLO

Both Christmas and Easter are pagan in nature and just as evil as Halloween.

So the rationale is that anything with pagan origins is evil? That would include the names of the days of the week, the calendar, the decimal system, the Latin alphabet, the English language itself (and most other languages), a lot of traditional cuisines and art styles, and the democratic system. And I think Steve Jobs was a Buddhist, so if that counts then Apple products are out (we can forget that Bill Gates is an atheist).

I think that the modern significance of a ritual is a lot more important to most people than the ancient significance of a ritual. You seem keen on using new and non-Christian technology to experience your Christian faith on the internet; maybe you could cut some slack for a few well-established holidays.

Anything that was done in order to worship another god. Easter, Christmas, Halloween, etc... are all celebrations on the pagan/wiccan calendar. They were that way long before Jesus came to this earth. The Christians a few centuries after Jesus' death allowed these pagan practices to slowly infiltrate the church. The practices were pretty much the same, they just gave them different names and thought that they can worship the one true God in the same fashion. WRONG! From God's own mouth, He said:

“The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates.”

- Deuteronomy 12:29-31 (NIV)

Don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself.

So yeah, technology is not the issue. The way we worship is. Celebrating Easter, Christmas, etc... is continuing in pagan sun god worship even though we say that it's for the real God. If God wants to be worshiped (which He does), then he'll let us know how he wants to be worshiped. The above verse clearly tells us how He does NOT want to be worshiped. You can celebrate xmas, easter, etc... if you want, but the bible is clear that God detests this type of worship.

[SivartM]

Are you sure that you have rejected all practices and rituals that are and have been practiced in paganism?

[FLO]

Are you sure that you have rejected all practices and rituals that are and have been practiced in paganism?

No sir. However, the ones I do know of, I'm trying my best to stay away from.

[Kevin H]

Flo: How do you deal with the new facts discovered about how December 25 became Christmas and how the Biblical Feasts of the land were the old Canaanite pagan feasts? Some have tried to argue that the the Canaanite feasts must have come from the flood, but they cannot answer why it is connected to the agracultural cycle of a specific piece of geography.

[Kevin H]

Also another issue is when we read about David taking the Ark into Jerusalem, that is just how the pagans celebrated Easter Sunday, they would take the gods to their temples, king wearing the loin cloth, walking and offering the sacrifices, giving the raisin cakes (also known as hot crossed buns).

[fccool]

Quote:

No sir. However, the ones I do know of, I'm trying my best to stay away from.

You do know that cross as a symbol is ubiquitously found in pagan culture?