Halloween, Christmas, and other holidays.

[FLO]

Quote:

No sir. However, the ones I do know of, I'm trying my best to stay away from.

You do know that cross as a symbol is ubiquitously found in pagan culture?

Yes! That I do know.

[FLO]

Flo: How do you deal with the new facts discovered about how December 25 became Christmas and how the Biblical Feasts of the land were the old Canaanite pagan feasts? Some have tried to argue that the the Canaanite feasts must have come from the flood, but they cannot answer why it is connected to the agracultural cycle of a specific piece of geography.

I didn't think the fact that Dec. 25 became Christmas was a new fact (Even though, I've only known of this for a few years now). Also, I haven't heard that the biblical Feasts of Leviticus were the old Canaanite pagan feasts. Would you care to enlighten me?

[Kevin H]

I mean, as I summerized in my above post, that while we use to think that December 25 became Christmas in the fourth century after Constantine to make Christainity popular by taking a pagan feast and applying it to the birth of Jesus. However historians now know that December 25 was seen as the birth of Jesus since the 3rd century by those hiding in the Catakomes because they wanted nothing to do with paganism, and it came from a second century feast that was based on Jewish tradition. And that there is even evidence that the Pagans did not keep December 25 as any kind of feast day until Christianity became popular in the 4th century and that instead of Christmas coming from a pagan feast, that the pagan feast started because of the popularity of Christians.

Also Archaeologests have known for decades that the feasts of Leviticus were the Canaanite pagan feasts kept centuries before Abraham. In a city that was already laying as an ancient ruin by Abraham's day, when dug up was found to have the Biblical feasts. The spring feast with eating the lamb and unlevened bread and the day of atonement with the 2 goats one sacrificed the other being the scapegote taken from the people. etc. The night that the Hebrews were delivered from Egypt, over in Canaan the Canaanites were eating a very similar meal and celebrating the feast.

[Kevin H]

You do know that cross as a symbol is ubiquitously found in pagan culture?

Did you know that the cross was a Jewish symbol of the Messiah from around the couple of centuries before Christ until it became associated with Jesus?

There are Jewish graves that have crosses that are too old to be Christian graves as well as those old enought to be Christian graves.

And in the dead sea scrolls there were marks in the margin, two common marks were the Alaph or the first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet and the Tau, or the last letter of the Hebrew Aphabet. As they studied they saw that the Alaph was by texts that were talking about God, and the Tau was by the texts that were seen as talking about the Messiah. The Tau at that time was a cross (the modern alphabet has changed it's shape) and the tau or the cross became a Jewish sign of trusting in the messiah and looking forward to the messanic age.

When Jesus in Revelation says that he is the Alpha and the Omega, he is refering to the Jewish symbols of the first letter and the last letter, the Alaph and the Tau and how they would use those two symbols. Jesus is saying that he is both the God who the Alaph represents and he is also the Messiah who they think about when they make or see a cross.

[Kevin H]

I need to tell 3 reasons why these facts are important:

1. wanting to be fair to the evidence

2. Satan's last deception will be to make of no effect the spirit of prophecy. One of the big ways will be to make people trust prophetic writings to be something other than what they are and then when the facts are known many will give up the scriptures because it does not measure up to their presupositions. It will be on a larger scale of what we saw a foretaste of with Walter Rea's pointing out facts about Mrs. White that made too many give up her writings then to change their views of inspiration to fit the facts.

3. We have too attitudes inside of us, that which wants to be fair to the world, to love the world as Jesus has loved it. And there is that in us that wants to have oontempt for the world, a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. To esteem himself more highly than his breathern, a one upsman ship. Where we are at least not pagans or at least not them.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: fccool

You do know that cross as a symbol is ubiquitously found in pagan culture?

Did you know that the cross was a Jewish symbol of the Messiah from around the couple of centuries before Christ until it became associated with Jesus?

There are Jewish graves that have crosses that are too old to be Christian graves as well as those old enought to be Christian graves.

And in the dead sea scrolls there were marks in the margin, two common marks were the Alaph or the first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet and the Tau, or the last letter of the Hebrew Aphabet. As they studied they saw that the Alaph was by texts that were talking about God, and the Tau was by the texts that were seen as talking about the Messiah. The Tau at that time was a cross (the modern alphabet has changed it's shape) and the tau or the cross became a Jewish sign of trusting in the messiah and looking forward to the messanic age.

When Jesus in Revelation says that he is the Alpha and the Omega, he is refering to the Jewish symbols of the first letter and the last letter, the Alaph and the Tau and how they would use those two symbols. Jesus is saying that he is both the God who the Alaph represents and he is also the Messiah who they think about when they make or see a cross.

Not that I don't believe what you've mentioned above, but being of Jewish descent (wasn't brought up jewish), I have many Jewish relatives who have never heard this. So if you could give some reference's, this would be very helpful. Also when mentioning the Aleph and the Tau, I think you mean the Tav not Tau.

[Gail]

This is just an aside, but speaking about holidays...

I've been talking with a retired pastor who wants to show the Midnight Cry video about the life of William Miller in place of Halloween. What a cool idea!

[Kevin H]

Pkrause: This was found by archaeologests. I first heard it in a couple of lectures by Dr. Jim Fleming, and although a less credible (and less well done) source on "The Naked Arcaheologist" on the history channel (I take him with a grain of salt unless it is also pointed out in more credible sources.) and I've also come across it here and there.

[Kevin H]

Lets remember that on Oct 31 is the anniversery of Luther's 95 theis, Reformation weekend. Also pray for the youth of Germany. Every year on the last weekend of October the caticism teachers bring their students to Wittenberg. Of the few people in Europe who become Christians, most of them decide for Christ on this trip as they see what the reformation cost. The young people on this trip realy need our prayers

[cardw]

One of the pagan practices that Christians do is the last supper. The main problem with the last supper being of Jewish origin is the fact that it has the believer drinking blood, which was absolutely forbidden under kosher law. Also the fact that it is cannibalistic. A far more likely origin was rituals derived from Mithra and other pagan gods of the time where drinking the blood and eating the body of your god was common.

You can find a number of references to gods born of virgins, sacrificed, and risen from the dead. And many of these had the worshippers drinking the blood of their god and eating the flesh of their god to gain the power of resurrection.

Quote:

Under Constantine when the Roman Empire adopted Christianity the festivals and stories were further infused with the traditions of the earlier Roman pagan religion. Constantine himself worshipped both Jesus and the sun god Sol Invitus, the Romanized version of Mithra, until he died.

Quote:

The style of many Mithraic verses seem quite familiar to modern Christians. A typical verse used in a Mithraic service is "Be of good cheer,

sacred band of Initiates, your God has risen from the dead. His

pains and sufferings shall be your salvation."

Christianity has many sources from which it emerged and many of its beliefs and practices originated in pagan religions.

[Neil D]

One of the pagan practices that Christians do is the last supper. The main problem with the last supper being of Jewish origin is the fact that it has the believer drinking blood, which was absolutely forbidden under kosher law. Also the fact that it is cannibalistic. A far more likely origin was rituals derived from Mithra and other pagan gods of the time where drinking the blood and eating the body of your god was common.

Technology is such that an Xray of the chest can show a lot of information, and you can see just a little bit more when you "inverse" the Xray...The bones, normally white, become dark...and a different perspective comes out....all to the benefit of the patient.

In Christ's Last Supper, it's interesting that (now) Christian Ritual, has roots also in pagan origions....the 'drinking of MY BLOOD" is not real blood, but rather grapejuice...a substance that is actually not repelling, and good for you....Where as blood is not really that appealling as food...

So, to look at this, while the idea that Christ's sacrifice is not all that appealing, once you do actually taste of the sacrifice, it is actually good for you....

What an awesome God the Christians serve......

thanks Cardw...for the insight....

[Neil D]

I mean, as I summerized in my above post, that while we use to think that December 25 became Christmas in the fourth century after Constantine to make Christainity popular by taking a pagan feast and applying it to the birth of Jesus. However historians now know that December 25 was seen as the birth of Jesus since the 3rd century by those hiding in the Catakomes because they wanted nothing to do with paganism, and it came from a second century feast that was based on Jewish tradition. And that there is even evidence that the Pagans did not keep December 25 as any kind of feast day until Christianity became popular in the 4th century and that instead of Christmas coming from a pagan feast, that the pagan feast started because of the popularity of Christians.

after nearly 20 years, it is reasuring that there is some evidence for not getting so dogmatic over this issue...Kevin, this issue is not a recent debate as you know, but has been fought over for many a year....This link is still a good place to go to and still gives some rational thoughts over this issue...

Reflections on Christmas

Tell me how this affects your thoughts on Christmas...

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: cardw

One of the pagan practices that Christians do is the last supper. The main problem with the last supper being of Jewish origin is the fact that it has the believer drinking blood, which was absolutely forbidden under kosher law. Also the fact that it is cannibalistic. A far more likely origin was rituals derived from Mithra and other pagan gods of the time where drinking the blood and eating the body of your god was common.

Technology is such that an Xray of the chest can show a lot of information, and you can see just a little bit more when you "inverse" the Xray...The bones, normally white, become dark...and a different perspective comes out....all to the benefit of the patient.

In Christ's Last Supper, it's interesting that (now) Christian Ritual, has roots also in pagan origions....the 'drinking of MY BLOOD" is not real blood, but rather grapejuice...a substance that is actually not repelling, and good for you....Where as blood is not really that appealling as food...

So, to look at this, while the idea that Christ's sacrifice is not all that appealing, once you do actually taste of the sacrifice, it is actually good for you....

What an awesome God the Christians serve......

thanks Cardw...for the insight....

Excellent thoughts hb, some are so negative, that all they see is bad in everything. Its no wonder that they can't find good in anything.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

One of the pagan practices that Christians do is the last supper. The main problem with the last supper being of Jewish origin is the fact that it has the believer drinking blood, which was absolutely forbidden under kosher law. Also the fact that it is cannibalistic. A far more likely origin was rituals derived from Mithra and other pagan gods of the time where drinking the blood and eating the body of your god was common.

Technology is such that an Xray of the chest can show a lot of information, and you can see just a little bit more when you "inverse" the Xray...The bones, normally white, become dark...and a different perspective comes out....all to the benefit of the patient.

In Christ's Last Supper, it's interesting that (now) Christian Ritual, has roots also in pagan origions....the 'drinking of MY BLOOD" is not real blood, but rather grapejuice...a substance that is actually not repelling, and good for you....Where as blood is not really that appealling as food...

So, to look at this, while the idea that Christ's sacrifice is not all that appealing, once you do actually taste of the sacrifice, it is actually good for you....

What an awesome God the Christians serve......

thanks Cardw...for the insight....

What you are providing is an example of how religions evolve. Once you decide there is an awesome god you make up meanings and stories to support that myth. So one religions ritual actually becomes evidence for your own belief even though the original intent is lost.

The point is that Christianity is just as much a made up religion as the pagan ones before it. The only reason Christianity emerged is because it got the endorsement of the Roman Empire. That power systematically destroyed and suppressed all other versions of Christianity and all other beliefs and established a reinterpreted version of paganism, Judaism, and Messianic mystery beliefs.

And here we are today dogmatically declaring that this syncretic combination is the one true religion.

[cardw]

I mean, as I summerized in my above post, that while we use to think that December 25 became Christmas in the fourth century after Constantine to make Christainity popular by taking a pagan feast and applying it to the birth of Jesus. However historians now know that December 25 was seen as the birth of Jesus since the 3rd century by those hiding in the Catakomes because they wanted nothing to do with paganism, and it came from a second century feast that was based on Jewish tradition. And that there is even evidence that the Pagans did not keep December 25 as any kind of feast day until Christianity became popular in the 4th century and that instead of Christmas coming from a pagan feast, that the pagan feast started because of the popularity of Christians.

[cardw]

Excellent thoughts hb, some are so negative, that all they see is bad in everything. Its no wonder that they can't find good in anything.

Just because I don't find evidence for Christianity doesn't mean that I see bad in everything. You are so Christian centric that it is difficult to see that anyone could find good in anything else.

I would also like to point out the Christianity doesn't see anything good in people.

I happen to love people and find a lot of good in them. The reason I am opposed to Christianity is that it teaches people to hate themselves and call that love.

No matter how nice you say it, when you state as a fact that there is no good in anyone human, you are teaching people to hate themselves. When you say that even their best qualities are like filthy rags (women's tampons), you are teaching people to hate themselves.

That is why I am negative on Christianity. It's because Christianity is negative on people. And most Christians speak with such confidence with little to no evidence for their claims. That is arrogance.

And then when someone disagrees you exaggerate and state that they are negative on everything.

This idea that Jesus had to die to appease the wrath of his father is based on centuries of sacrificial superstition preceding the birth of Christianity. And the fact that we still promote this as "good" is still based on fear and superstition.

It won't be long and somebody will tell me that I had better look out because god is going to destroy me. That is the basis of Christian love.

[olger]

"There’s a reason for the pull of the pagan. In the U.S., we’ve been vigorously scrubbing our schools and other public spaces of traces of monotheistic religion for many decades now. Such scrubbing leaves a vacuum. The great self-deception of modern life is that nothing will be pulled into that vacuum. Half a century ago, the psychologist Carl Jung noted the heightened interest in UFOs, and concluded that the paranormal was “modern myth,” a replacement for religion.

Children or adults who today relish every detail of zombie culture or know every bit of wizarding minutiae are seeking something to believe in. That church and synagogue are so controversial that everyone prefers the paranormal as neutral ground is disconcerting. There’s something unsettling about the education of a child who comfortably enumerates the rules for surviving zombie apocalypse but finds it uncomfortable to enumerate the rules of his grandparents’ faith, if he knows them."

[phkrause]

My point is that you are only seeing and looking for all the bad in Christianity. But seems that you look toward all the good the world holds and just remove all the bad. You could easily reverse that senario, but for some reason choose not to.

Christianity see much good in people, you just refuse to see that.

I always look for the good in everyone I meet. Besides there is good in each of us. That's what Jesus has taught me.

Jesus, teaches us to love our neighbor as our self! Does he not?? If you agree, than what you are agreeing to is that true Christianity teaches the same thing.

[cardw]

My point is that you are only seeing and looking for all the bad in Christianity. But seems that you look toward all the good the world holds and just remove all the bad. You could easily reverse that senario, but for some reason choose not to.

Christianity see much good in people, you just refuse to see that.

I always look for the good in everyone I meet. Besides there is good in each of us. That's what Jesus has taught me.

Jesus, teaches us to love our neighbor as our self! Does he not?? If you agree, than what you are agreeing to is that true Christianity teaches the same thing.

You keep speaking in generalizations. That is a form of disinformation.

I like people who happen to be Christians. They generally form communities that help each other and they go to their Christian club about every week. Most of them don't really know what Christianity is because they are happy in their ignorance of it. And when confronted with some of the more disturbing aspects of Christian teaching they tend to dismiss it because they are happy with their community.

There is nothing wrong with community and there is nothing wrong with wanting to be happy in your community. And I have no problem with that aspect of Christian community. The point is that it is community that makes this happen, not Christianity.

Christianity separates people because it teaches that people outside of it are evil. That is still going to be at its core. I know this because I lived within Christian community for years and there is always this secret smugness about being on the inside and believing that one has the truth.

Now you seem to be a positive person and present a very nice persona. But in Christian communities there is always the closers that add the more unpleasant parts of being a Christian into the mix. And that is the core history of what Christianity is. It would not be here without the military might of the Roman empire. You're like the car salesman that is nice and little fuzzy on the details.

The devil is always in the details. And it is the details that I am pointing out.

[cardw]

"There’s a reason for the pull of the pagan. In the U.S., we’ve been vigorously scrubbing our schools and other public spaces of traces of monotheistic religion for many decades now. Such scrubbing leaves a vacuum. The great self-deception of modern life is that nothing will be pulled into that vacuum. Half a century ago, the psychologist Carl Jung noted the heightened interest in UFOs, and concluded that the paranormal was “modern myth,” a replacement for religion.

Children or adults who today relish every detail of zombie culture or know every bit of wizarding minutiae are seeking something to believe in. That church and synagogue are so controversial that everyone prefers the paranormal as neutral ground is disconcerting. There’s something unsettling about the education of a child who comfortably enumerates the rules for surviving zombie apocalypse but finds it uncomfortable to enumerate the rules of his grandparents’ faith, if he knows them."

People like fantasy. Christianity is simply one among many different fantasies. People don't generally kill other people if they don't like the same TV series. Christians don't seem to be able to differentiate between reality and fantasy.

[Dr. Shane]

We enjoy the holidays. We are going to miss our annual 12-Step costume party this year because we are taking the kids on an Adventurer camporee that weekend. We will, however, go to Boo In The Zoo.

[FLO]

The point is that Christianity is just as much a made up religion as the pagan ones before it. The only reason Christianity emerged is because it got the endorsement of the Roman Empire. That power systematically destroyed and suppressed all other versions of Christianity and all other beliefs and established a reinterpreted version of paganism, Judaism, and Messianic mystery beliefs.

And here we are today dogmatically declaring that this syncretic combination is the one true religion.

You are absolutely correct Rich! Most of Christianity today is made up of exactly what you just described. That's exactly the problem. That's not what Jesus intended. During New Testament times, this was not the case. Jesus and the disciples kept the Torah (God's Word as described in the first 5 books of the Bible). They did not follow a religion of Syncretism, which is what Christianity has unfortunately turned into. They did not celebrate any pagan festivals, but kept God's festivals as described in Leviticus 23.

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/rico/Mithras_part1/index.html

[Dr. Shane]

I think the best way to celebrate Halloween is to carve a pumpkin with a cross in it. That is a great way to spread the gospel.

[cardw]

I think the best way to celebrate Halloween is to carve a pumpkin with a cross in it. That is a great way to spread the gospel.

Halloween is actually Hallow Mass. When I was in college our brass choir played this mass at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco.

[FLO]

I think the best way to celebrate Halloween is to carve a pumpkin with a cross in it. That is a great way to spread the gospel.

Don't know exactly what gospel you're trying to spread, but it definitely has nothing to do with the gospels in the Bible. Carving a pumpkin, with a pagan symbol no less (yes! The cross is a pagan symbol, do some research if you don't believe me), is participating in one of the most sacred days on the devil worshippers calendar called Samhain. So, who exactly would you be advertising for?