Moderators John317 Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 I see a huge difference between a writer describing the movement of the sun from the viewpoint of ordinary human experience and a writer saying that they were shown a vision of Enoch on Saturn. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 When it suits you the aliens are men and when it doesn't they are not human.The spin here is incredible. It is you who are spinning. SDAs have never claimed that the creatures on other worlds are "men". Humanity is unique to this earth. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 Tell me why you need a Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White, Charles Taze Russell, L Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones. Why do people need to be told how to think? We don't need a Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Taze Russell, L. Ron Hubbard, or Jim Jones, etc. None of those pass the Bible tests of a genuine prophet. But the Bible says: 1 Thes. 5:19-21 Do not quench the Spirit. [20] Do not despise prophecies, [21] but test everything; hold fast what is good. If I did not hold fast to Ellen White's prophetic writings, I would not be doing what God has told us to do in His Word. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 No, I will not 'touch that line' John 317, but know this, that both Matthew 19's account of the Rich Young Ruler and Rev. 12:17 provide the two things that are needed for salvation and neither of them are grace or faith. From the words of Jesus, He said that one MUST keep all of the ten commandments (the Covenant) AND follow/abide in the words of Jesus (the testimony given by Jesus). So, I would agree that NO ONE needs anyone's opinion/dogma other than the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. (John 14:26 and 17:17-21)
Moderators John317 Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 From the words of Jesus, He said that one MUST keep all of the ten commandments (the Covenant) AND follow/abide in the words of Jesus (the testimony given by Jesus). Yes, Christ commands us to keep all His commandments, but Jesus did not signify that a person must keep all of the commandments in order to earn salvation. That would be an impossibility. The only basis of being saved by keeping the law would be perfect obedience, yet no human being besides Christ has perfect obedience to offer God. Therefore, whether you recognize it or not, you don't deserve-- and can't possibly deserve-- salvation. You, like everyone else, must depend on God's grace for your salvation. None of us deserves God's forgiveness but He offers it to us simply on the basis of His unmerited favor. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Klapas Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich From the words of Jesus, He said that one MUST keep all of the ten commandments (the Covenant) AND follow/abide in the words of Jesus (the testimony given by Jesus). Yes, Christ commands us to keep all His commandments, but Jesus did not signify that a person must keep all of the commandments in order to earn salvation. That would be an impossibility. The only basis of being saved by keeping the law would be perfect obedience, yet no human being besides Christ has perfect obedience to offer God. Therefore, whether you recognize it or not, you don't deserve-- and can't possibly deserve-- salvation. You, like everyone else, must depend on God's grace for your salvation. None of us deserves God's forgiveness but He offers it to us simply on the basis of His unmerited favor. "Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law." (Review and Herald, Vol. 71, No. 35, p.1, August 28, 1894). "To be redeemed means to cease from sin." (Review and Herald, Vol. 77, No. 39, p.1, September 25, 1900). "Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all his precepts." (Manuscript 122, 1901, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 6, p.1118). "To every one who surrenders fully to God is given the privilege of living without sin, in obedience to the law of heaven. God requires of us perfect obedience. We are to purify ourselves, even as he is pure. By keeping his commandments, we are to reveal our love for the Supreme Ruler of the universe." (Review and Herald, September 27, 1906, p.8). 1 Cor 15:47Proverbs 30:5-6
Klapas Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 I see a huge difference between a writer describing the movement of the sun from the viewpoint of ordinary human experience and a writer saying that they were shown a vision of Enoch on Saturn. Get your story right. I thought you said she didn't astral travel to Saturn? 1 Cor 15:47Proverbs 30:5-6
Lysimachus Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 I see a huge difference between a writer describing the movement of the sun from the viewpoint of ordinary human experience and a writer saying that they were shown a vision of Enoch on Saturn. Get your story right. I thought you said she didn't astral travel to Saturn? He never said she traveled in her vision to Saturn. Read his sentence again, carefully. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Lysimachus Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 When it suits you the aliens are men and when it doesn't they are not human.The spin here is incredible. Probably because we humans have a difficulty of what name to give them, so we say "men" sometimes because we don't know what to call them. Nonetheless, they are not really men, but we sometimes use the phrase "men" because we think of them as men-like. If we use the term "aliens", we think of ET. So neither term really sounds right. Nevertheless, there are definitely other "unfallen beings" out there, whatever they may be termed. I think it is selfish to think that God created such immense space with so many endless galaxies, only for us to conclude that we are the only creatures God made, and that every single planet out in the endless universe is "empty". When we get to heaven Klapas, I think you will be MIGHTILY surprised by what God has created, and you didn't have a clue! I have seen a number of photos of space and astronomy, and when you look at some of the galaxies out there, you are blown away. Sometimes it looks as if there are paths hanging from chandelier to chandelier. You wonder, could there have been life God created on these planets? It's not a far-fetched idea. Such an idea should actually be exciting to you. Your real reason for finding fault with this possibility is that you hate Ellen White, and seem to derive pleasure in using the Bible's silence on this matter as a weapon to try and discredit her. Shame on you. Shame. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
ClubV12 Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 "I think it is selfish to think that God created such immense space with so many endless galaxies, only for us to conclude that we are the only creatures God made...." I recall a time when we "man" thought the sun revolved around the earth, which was flat of course. Like were the ONLY planet and created beings God ever created in the Universe? Or the first? We aint THAT special, (but then again, we ARE the most special planet IN the Universe, the only one Christ died to save)!
Klapas Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Since nobody wants to touch the sinless subject, how about di GOD send ravens to Elijah? "There He honored Elijah by sending food to him morning and evening by an angel of heaven." (Testimonies, Vol. 3, p.288, written in 1873). "He who fed Elijah by the brook, making a raven His messenger." (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p.253, written in 1876). "And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there. So he went and did according unto the word of the LORD: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan. And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook." (1 Kings 17:4-6). NOTE: In 1873 EGW contradicted the Bible when she said Elijah was fed by an angel. Then three years later in 1876 she changed her mind and agreed with the Bible that it really was a raven. Then, a year after her death, her editors tried to smooth things over by omitting any reference to either an angel or a raven. They changed EGW's words to say Elijah was just "miraculously provided with food." (Prophets and Kings, p.129, written in 1916). 1 Cor 15:47Proverbs 30:5-6
Moderators John317 Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 I see a huge difference between a writer describing the movement of the sun from the viewpoint of ordinary human experience and a writer saying that they were shown a vision of Enoch on Saturn. Originally Posted By: Klapas Get your story right. I thought you said she didn't astral travel to Saturn? You thought correctly: Ellen White "didn't astral travel to Saturn." Is being shown a vision "astral travel"? Here's what wikipedia says about astral travel: Quote: Astral projection (or astral travel) is an interpretation of out-of-body experience (OBE) that assumes the existence of an "astral body" separate from the physical body and capable of traveling outside it. Astral projection or travel denotes the astral body leaving the physical body to travel in the astral plane. The above does not describe Ellen White's experience. She was given a vision much like Daniel and the apostle John were given visions. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 Yes, Christ commands us to keep all His commandments, but Jesus did not signify that a person must keep all of the commandments in order to earn salvation. That would be an impossibility. The only basis of being saved by keeping the law would be perfect obedience, yet no human being besides Christ has perfect obedience to offer God. Therefore, whether you recognize it or not, you don't deserve-- and can't possibly deserve-- salvation. You, like everyone else, must depend on God's grace for your salvation. None of us deserves God's forgiveness but He offers it to us simply on the basis of His unmerited favor. Originally Posted By: Klapas (quoting)"Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law." (Review and Herald, Vol. 71, No. 35, p.1, August 28, 1894). "To be redeemed means to cease from sin." (Review and Herald, Vol. 77, No. 39, p.1, September 25, 1900). "Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all his precepts." (Manuscript 122, 1901, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 6, p.1118). "To every one who surrenders fully to God is given the privilege of living without sin, in obedience to the law of heaven. God requires of us perfect obedience. We are to purify ourselves, even as he is pure. By keeping his commandments, we are to reveal our love for the Supreme Ruler of the universe." (Review and Herald, September 27, 1906, p.8). The EGW quotes-- which I completely agree with-- don't contradict what I said earlier. 1) Ellen White is not saying that people earn their salvation by not sinning. 2) Ellen White is not claiming that people aren't saved by God's grace through faith. 3) Ellen White is not denying that people need God's forgiveness in order to be saved. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 Since nobody wants to touch the sinless subject, What is the sinless subject you want to discuss? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 Since nobody wants to touch the sinless subject, .... I'll let the Apostle John tackle this one. ESV | ‎1 Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. ‎7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. ‎8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. ‎9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. NIV84 | ‎1 Jn 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. ‎7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. ‎8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. ‎9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. Quote: how about di GOD send ravens to Elijah? "There He honored Elijah by sending food to him morning and evening by an angel of heaven." (Testimonies, Vol. 3, p.288, written in 1873). "He who fed Elijah by the brook, making a raven His messenger." (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p.253, written in 1876). You are grasping at straws. That's elementary, my dear Watson, errr Klapas. ESV | ‎Ex 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart," ESV | ‎Ex 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart. ESV | ‎Ex 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, Did Moses contradict himself? What does this have to do with your question? I'll give you the chance to figure that out first.
Moderators John317 Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 .... how about di GOD send ravens to Elijah? Yes, of course God sent ravens to feed Elijah. Originally Posted By: Klapas (quoting): "There He honored Elijah by sending food to him morning and evening by an angel of heaven." (Testimonies, Vol. 3, p.288, written in 1873). "He who fed Elijah by the brook, making a raven His messenger." (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p.253, written in 1876). "And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there. So he went and did according unto the word of the LORD: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan. And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook." (1 Kings 17:4-6). In 1851, Ellen White also wrote: Quote: If necessary He would send ravens to feed us,He did to feed Elijah, or rain manna from heaven, as He did for the Israelites.--EW 56 (1851). {LDE 264, 265} Originally Posted By: Klapas NOTE: In 1873 EGW contradicted the Bible when she said Elijah was fed by an angel. Then three years later in 1876 she changed her mind and agreed with the Bible that it really was a raven. You don't have your facts straight. As you can see above, Ellen White wrote in 1851 that ravens brought food to Elijah. Originally Posted By: Klapas Then, a year after her death, her editors tried to smooth things over by omitting any reference to either an angel or a raven. They changed EGW's words to say Elijah was just "miraculously provided with food." (Prophets and Kings, p.129, written in 1916). This is false. Her editors never changed her words to signify things she didn't intend to say. Can you prove your groundless claim? You claim that this was written after Ellen White's death which occurred in 1915, but this is untrue. The book was first published in 1917, but Ellen White wrote the material on page 129 of that book several years before then. This can be easily documented. Was this another criticism that you got from an anti-EGW web-site? It certainly has that appearence. In any case, it is false. You need to do more research before you make accusations and allegations. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Lysimachus Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Since nobody wants to touch the sinless subject, how about di GOD send ravens to Elijah? "There He honored Elijah by sending food to him morning and evening by an angel of heaven." (Testimonies, Vol. 3, p.288, written in 1873). "He who fed Elijah by the brook, making a raven His messenger." (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p.253, written in 1876). "And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there. So he went and did according unto the word of the LORD: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan. And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook." (1 Kings 17:4-6). NOTE: In 1873 EGW contradicted the Bible when she said Elijah was fed by an angel. Then three years later in 1876 she changed her mind and agreed with the Bible that it really was a raven. Then, a year after her death, her editors tried to smooth things over by omitting any reference to either an angel or a raven. They changed EGW's words to say Elijah was just "miraculously provided with food." (Prophets and Kings, p.129, written in 1916). No contradiction whatsoever. It was an angel that guided the ravens. God used an angel to guide the ravens, hence, it was an angel that was actually doing it, but the ravens were the actual ones to carry the bread physically. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Moderators John317 Posted November 8, 2011 Moderators Posted November 8, 2011 ... It was an angel that guided the ravens. God used an angel to guide the ravens, hence, it was an angel that was actually doing it, but the ravens were the actual ones to carry the bread physically. It's pitiful that anyone would think the ravens did it on their own without the involvement of angels of God. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted November 9, 2011 Moderators Posted November 9, 2011 Lysimachus... It was an angel that guided the ravens. God used an angel to guide the ravens, hence, it was an angel that was actually doing it, but the ravens were the actual ones to carry the bread physically. John: It's pitiful that anyone would think the ravens did it on their own without the involvement of angels of God. You guys spoiled my question.
Moderators John317 Posted November 9, 2011 Moderators Posted November 9, 2011 Please ask your question. I'd really like to hear it. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Klapas Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 I see a huge difference between a writer describing the movement of the sun from the viewpoint of ordinary human experience and a writer saying that they were shown a vision of Enoch on Saturn. Originally Posted By: Klapas Get your story right. I thought you said she didn't astral travel to Saturn? You thought correctly: Ellen White "didn't astral travel to Saturn." Is being shown a vision "astral travel"? Here's what wikipedia says about astral travel: Quote: Astral projection (or astral travel) is an interpretation of out-of-body experience (OBE) that assumes the existence of an "astral body" separate from the physical body and capable of traveling outside it. Astral projection or travel denotes the astral body leaving the physical body to travel in the astral plane. The above does not describe Ellen White's experience. She was given a vision much like Daniel and the apostle John were given visions. Are you on the payroll John? My point wasn't the "astral traveling". It was the fact that she went or had a vision of Saturn. When it suits you it wasnt Saturn and when it suits you it was. 1 Cor 15:47Proverbs 30:5-6
Klapas Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus ... It was an angel that guided the ravens. God used an angel to guide the ravens, hence, it was an angel that was actually doing it, but the ravens were the actual ones to carry the bread physically. It's pitiful that anyone would think the ravens did it on their own without the involvement of angels of God. John says there were no angels but you are defending the angels verse. Get your stories straight. 1 Cor 15:47Proverbs 30:5-6
Moderators John317 Posted November 9, 2011 Moderators Posted November 9, 2011 I see a huge difference between a writer describing the movement of the sun from the viewpoint of ordinary human experience and a writer saying that they were shown a vision of Enoch on Saturn. Originally Posted By: Klapas Get your story right. I thought you said she didn't astral travel to Saturn? Originally Posted By: John3:17 You thought correctly: Ellen White "didn't astral travel to Saturn." Originally Posted By: Klapas Are you on the payroll John?My point wasn't the "astral traveling". It was the fact that she went or had a vision of Saturn. When it suits you it wasnt Saturn and when it suits you it was. What in the world are you talking about? When did I ever say that she was given a vision of Saturn? I have said over and over again that she was not given a vision of Saturn. You said earlier that you have dyslexia, and I do believe it for sure. Ellen White was given a vision of a planet somewhere in God's universe. She never claimed to know where it was or to know the name of the planet. Other people made mention of where they believed it was, but Ellen White never did. That's because it was never revealed to her and therefore she had no idea where it was located. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 9, 2011 Moderators Posted November 9, 2011 ... It was an angel that guided the ravens. God used an angel to guide the ravens, hence, it was an angel that was actually doing it, but the ravens were the actual ones to carry the bread physically. Originally Posted By: John3:17 It's pitiful that anyone would think the ravens did it on their own without the involvement of angels of God. Originally Posted By: Klapas John says there were no angels but you are defending the angels verse. Get your stories straight. The only confusion is in your mind. I never said there were no angels. On the contrary, notice the sentence in blue. Please also see and review carefully post #491220. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 No contradiction whatsoever. It was an angel that guided the ravens. God used an angel to guide the ravens, hence, it was an angel that was actually doing it, but the ravens were the actual ones to carry the bread physically. Where in the Bible does it say this?
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