Are you a PROTESTANT?

[Stan]

Are you a PROTESTANT? REALLY? What are you protesting these days?

I would rather spend my time on showing reasons, Biblically, that Christ is coming again, and that the Sabbath is a day of celebration.

Those who look back generally do not look forward.

Just sayin'

[12tribes]

Are you a PROTESTANT? REALLY? What are you protesting these days?

I would rather spend my time on showing reasons, Biblically, that Christ is coming again, and that the Sabbath is a day of celebration.

Those who look back generally do not look forward.

Just sayin'

Yes that is right we need to look forward.

Philippians 3:13-14

(13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

(14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

As long as we don't forget the mistakes of the past

Deuteronomy 16:12

(12) And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt: and thou shalt observe and do these statutes.

[Gail]

The thrust of recent sermons that I've heard have been most encouraging, and that is that Jesus is to be lifted up. When this happens then the promise is that "I will draw all men to me"

Jesus in Revelation, Jesus in the sanctuary, Jesus all through the Scriptures. It is very exciting!

[Gibs]

Stan,

Should protestantism ever die? I don't think so. If we amount to a hill of beans shouldn't all still protest error that is being pushed.

For various reasons I must remain a protestant to many errors out of the church as you know it and some within the church as you know it.

We have one Word and that only is the Truth and yet many followings. Men make different things of what that Word says. That will be the case until the end and it is for sure one must not follow the majority and that has always been the case.

What is alarming is just how few will find that strait gate and narrow way and walk in it. The way is made so wide today that most never see that very narrow and scraping off little gate. That wide road is made down hill and so easy most ride it with glee.

There is a battle to be won and "it will take all to buy the field". We must surrender all, nothing withheld of self, self must be killed.

Error is always forcing it's self in and it has to be fought, protested against.

Go alongers only with Him and His Word is our motto.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

Protestant: an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them. (dictionary.com)

Has Rome Changed?

The Roman Church now presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties. She has clothed herself in Christlike garments; but she is unchanged. Every principle of the papacy that existed in past ages exists today. The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves. The papacy that Protestants are now so ready to honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation, when men of God stood up, at the peril of their lives, to expose her iniquity. She possesses the same pride and arrogant assumption that lorded it over kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God. Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when she crushed out human liberty and slew the saints of the Most High.

The papacy is just what prophecy declared that she would be, the apostasy of the latter times. 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4. It is a part of her policy to assume the character which will best accomplish her purpose; but beneath the variable appearance of the chameleon she conceals the invariable venom of the serpent. “Faith ought not to be kept with heretics, nor persons suspected of heresy” (Lenfant, volume 1, page 516), she declares. Shall this power, whose record for a thousand years is written in the blood of the saints, be now acknowledged as a part of the church of Christ?

It is not without reason that the claim has been put forth in Protestant countries that Catholicism differs less widely from Protestantism than in former times. There has been a change; but the change is not in the papacy. Catholicism indeed resembles much of the Protestantism that now exists, because Protestantism has so greatly degenerated since the days of the Reformers.

As the Protestant churches have been seeking the favor of the world, false charity has blinded their eyes. They do not see but that it is right to believe good of all evil, and as the inevitable result they will finally believe evil of all good. Instead of standing in defense of the faith once delivered to the saints, they are now, as it were, apologizing to Rome for their uncharitable opinion of her, begging pardon for their bigotry.

A large class, even of those who look upon Romanism with no favor, apprehend little danger from her power and influence. Many urge that the intellectual and moral darkness prevailing during the Middle Ages favored the spread of her dogmas, superstitions, and oppression, and that the greater intelligence of modern times, the general diffusion of knowledge, and the increasing liberality in matters of religion forbid a revival of intolerance and tyranny. The very thought that such a state of things will exist in this enlightened age is ridiculed. It is true that great light, intellectual, moral, and religious, is shining upon this generation. In the open pages of God’s Holy Word, light from heaven has been shed upon the world. But it should be remembered that the greater the light bestowed, the greater the darkness of those who pervert and reject it.

A prayerful study of the Bible would show Protestants the real character of the papacy and would cause them to abhor and to shun it; but many are so wise in their own conceit that they feel no need of humbly seeking God that they may be led into the truth. Although priding themselves on their enlightenment, they are ignorant both of the Scriptures and of the power of God. They must have some means of quieting their consciences, and they seek that which is least spiritual and humiliating. What they desire is a method of forgetting God which shall pass as a method of remembering Him. The papacy is well adapted to meet the wants of all these. It is prepared for two classes of mankind, embracing nearly the whole world—those who would be saved by their merits, and those who would be saved in their sins. Here is the secret of its power.

A day of great intellectual darkness has been shown to be favorable to the success of the papacy. It will yet be demonstrated that a day of great intellectual light is equally favorable for its success. In past ages, when men were without God’s word and without the knowledge of the truth, their eyes were blindfolded, and thousands were ensnared, not seeing the net spread for their feet. In this generation there are many whose eyes become dazzled by the glare of human speculations, “science falsely so called;” they discern not the net, and walk into it as readily as if blindfolded. God designed that man’s intellectual powers should be held as a gift from his Maker and should be employed in the service of truth and righteousness; but when pride and ambition are cherished, and men exalt their own theories above the word of God, then intelligence can accomplish greater harm than ignorance. Thus the false science of the present day, which undermines faith in the Bible, will prove as successful in preparing the way for the acceptance of the papacy, with its pleasing forms, as did the withholding of knowledge in opening the way for its aggrandizement in the Dark Ages.

The Great Controversy, pp. 571-573

[olger]

I am still protesting, I guess.

[LynnDel]

Quote:

Protestant: an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them. (dictionary.com)

Are there non-Catholic Christians who can claim not to be Protestant, based on this definition? I know some who do, who claim to be directly descended from the New Testament church.

LD

[Woody]

Are you a PROTESTANT? REALLY? What are you protesting these days?

I would rather spend my time on showing reasons, Biblically, that Christ is coming again, and that the Sabbath is a day of celebration.

Those who look back generally do not look forward.

Just sayin'

Excellent Stan. I'm with you. I prefer not to protest. I don't think it's very effective.

[John317]

Are you a PROTESTANT? REALLY? What are you protesting these days?

We should still be protesting against the false doctrines that have been introduced into the Christian Church by the little horn power of Daniel 7 and 8. That means holding up the Bible truths that have been cast down and trampled underfoot. The Seventh-day Adventist Church was raised up for the purpose of elevating the downtrodden law of God.

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

I would rather spend my time on showing reasons, Biblically, that Christ is coming again, and that the Sabbath is a day of celebration.

That is an important part of being a Protestant.

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Those who look back generally do not look forward.

Just sayin'

We actually need to look both back and forward.

If people only look forward, they lose sight of the past. Those who lose sight of the past are doomed to repeat its past mistakes and to forget how God has led us.

Quote:

In reviewing our past history, having traveled over every step of advance to our present standing, I can say, Praise God! As I see what God has wrought, I am filled with astonishment, and with confidence in Christ as leader. We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history. {CET 204.1}

[dialoguewithus]

John317

I guess the Why I'm a Former SDA forum is closed.

You asked me some questions there.

No, I don’t believe the second death is eternal. I take Colossians 1:20, 1 Tim. 4:10, and Romans 5:18,19 literally.

The beast would be one of the two of Revelation 13, definitely evil powers but I’m not able at the moment to elaborate on the details. Yes the mark will be literal IMHO.

If I’m not mistaken the commentary I saw way back in the 1980’s had no mention of Rev.2:26-28. I don’t remember ever hearing or reading anything from the SDAs regarding the rod of iron. It doesn't fit with anything I remember ever learning about the 1000 years or the new earth from the Adventists.

[BobRyan]

Are you a PROTESTANT? REALLY? What are you protesting these days?

I would rather spend my time on showing reasons, Biblically, that Christ is coming again, and that the Sabbath is a day of celebration.

Those who look back generally do not look forward.

Just sayin'

Protestant in that I identify with the "sola scriptura" doctrinal testing platform of Catholic Protesters coming out of the dark ages.

When you find other SDAs going the "Sola scriptura" route - they are generally conservative and share the principles of the protesting Catholics leaving the dark ages.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

John317

I guess the Why I'm a Former SDA forum is closed.

Yes, sorry. It was just closed a few minutes ago.

Originally Posted By: dialoguewithus

You asked me some questions there.

No, I don’t believe the second death is eternal. I take Colossians 1:20, 1 Tim. 4:10, and Romans 5:18,19 literally.

But those verses don't mean the second death is NOT eternal.

In order to believe as you do-- that everyone will finally be saved-- you have to reject an awful lot of verses which clearly say that the wicked will be utterly destroyed.

Just two:

2 Thes. 1:9-10

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, [10] when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Romans 2:5-11

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

[6] He will render to each one according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. [9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, [10] but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. [11] For God shows no partiality.

[BobRyan]

John317

I guess the Why I'm a Former SDA forum is closed.

You asked me some questions there.

No, I don’t believe the second death is eternal. I take Colossians 1:20, 1 Tim. 4:10, and Romans 5:18,19 literally.

The beast would be one of the two of Revelation 13, definitely evil powers but I’m not able at the moment to elaborate on the details. Yes the mark will be literal IMHO.

If I’m not mistaken the commentary I saw way back in the 1980’s had no mention of Rev.2:26-28. I don’t remember ever hearing or reading anything from the SDAs regarding the rod of iron. It doesn't fit with anything I remember ever learning about the 1000 years or the new earth from the Adventists.

Speaking of the 2nd death Christ said that "both body AND soul are destroyed in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 (contrasts that with the first death for both the wicked and the saints).

That pretty much says it all.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

...The beast would be one of the two of Revelation 13, definitely evil powers but I'm not able at the moment to elaborate on the details. Yes the mark will be literal IMHO.

Don't you mean that the "beast" is not literal but that it symbolizes some power?

Notice that the mark of the beast is in contrast with the seal of God. Is the seal of God also literal?

Rev. 7:3

saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

Rev. 14:1

Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

Rev. 22: 4 says: They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

Will God's name literally be on their foreheads?

QUESTIONS: Why would the mark of the beast be literal if the seal of God is not literal or if the name of God in the forehead is not literal? Doesn't consistency require that all three be literal if one of them is literal?

[John317]

...If I'm not mistaken the commentary I saw way back in the 1980s had no mention of Rev.2:26-28.

You must be mistaken. I'm looking at the edition printed in 1955. It is the same as the one published in 1980.

Originally Posted By: dialoguewithus

I don't remember ever hearing or reading anything from the SDAs regarding the rod of iron. It doesn't fit with anything I remember ever learning about the 1000 years or the new earth from the Adventists.

Check out the SDA Bible Commentary under Rev. 2: 27. You might be happily surprised.

Perhaps you misunderstand the significance of the rod of iron.

[John317]

Are you a PROTESTANT? REALLY?

Yes, I am. REALLY.

Aren't all Seventh-day Adventists true Protestants? I know the Roman Catholic Church would like us-- and all Protestants-- to forget what we are and why. It is trying do undo everything that Protestantism has accomplished during the last 400 years.

[John317]

The thrust of recent sermons that I've heard have been most encouraging, and that is that Jesus is to be lifted up. When this happens then the promise is that "I will draw all men to me"

Jesus in Revelation, Jesus in the sanctuary, Jesus all through the Scriptures. It is very exciting!

But isn't that what being a true Protestant is all about?

[dialoguewithus]

2 Thes. 1:9-10 is literally "eonian extermination". Eonian comes from eon, an age, having both a beginning and an end. Another example is the fire eonian that fell on Sodom & Gomorah- Jude 7.

Romans 2 contrasts those who believe on Christ and will thus enjoy eonian life during the eons of the eons (1000 yrs and new earth) versus those who will suffer wrath instead.

I don't see any verses that indicate to me the utter destruction of anyone, although I certainly recognize that most "translations" leave a lot to be desired and can certainly appear to support that viewpoint.

As for the seal of God vs. the mark of the beast, you're probably right that both would be either literal or figurative. I lean toward literal.

As for the soul being destroyed in Gehenna. I would take Christ to be speaking to His disciples concerning the Kingdom promised to Israel. Those who persecute the remnant of Israel will suffer the judgments of the kingdom during the 1000 yrs. The soul refers to feelings- suffering in this case. Their enemies can't affect their feelings by killing their bodies because their next waking moment will be in immortality. This word- apollumi- destroy, lose or perish is the word used in Lk. 19:10-

For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost.

Lk. 15:9 is the same word, which does not mean extinction.

[Stan]

Re protesting...

Who is openly protesting?

[aldona]

Quote:

Protestant: an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them. (dictionary.com)

Are there non-Catholic Christians who can claim not to be Protestant, based on this definition? I know some who do, who claim to be directly descended from the New Testament church.

LD

How about the Orthodox churches?

They pre-date Protestantism by many centuries - the schism between the Catholic and Orthodox forms of Christianity took place in 1054.

We have some good friends who are Coptic (Egyptian) Orthodox. We have learned a lot from them. In Egypt they have a lot of historical sites and heritage that they claim dates back to the very earliest days of Christianity, and even to the time when Joseph and Mary with baby Jesus stayed in Egypt.

AJ

[Gibs]

Those who go along with error in the church and churches are not protestants.

Those who protest the error in the church and churches are protestants.

It's just that simple,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

2 Thes. 1:9-10 is literally "eonian extermination". Eonian comes from eon, an age, having both a beginning and an end. Another example is the fire eonian that fell on Sodom & Gomorah- Jude 7.

I protest against the false teaching of both Universalism and the endless suffering of the wicked. The Bible teaches neither. It teaches that the wicked are not immortal but that they will be utterly destroyed and cease to exist, i.e., be as though they had never been.

You should accept the translations and not try to translate the Greek yourself, unless you have studied koine Greek fairly extensively. Similarly, people who aren't fluent in Spanish should accept the Spanish translations of those who are fluent in that language.

Let's look at what the Bible says will happen to those who are lost:

Isaiah 1:28

But rebels and sinners shall be broken together,

and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.

The New Berkeley Version correctly translates this as "annihilated."

Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

NOTE: Jesus said the wicked will have both body and soul destroyed in hell.

Matthew 13:41-42

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:6

but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 21:44

And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him [grind him to powder]

Matthew 24:48-51

But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' [49] and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, [50] the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know

[51] and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30

And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 26:24

The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

Mark 3:29

but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"—

Mark 9:43-48

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. [44]

[45] And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. [46]

[47] And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, [48] 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Mark 14:21

For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

Luke 17:26-30

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. [27] They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. [28] Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, [29] but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— [30] so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

1 Thes. 5:3

While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Rev. 20:6

Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev. 20:9

And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

2 Peter 3:11-14

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, [12] waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! [13] But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

[14] Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.

John 5:28-29

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice

[29] and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15

having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

NOTE: Those who do not believe in God's Son will perish.

Obadiah 1:16

For as you have drunk on my holy mountain,

so all the nations shall drink continually;

they shall drink and swallow,

and shall be as though they had never been.

NOTE: The wicked will be "as though they had never been."

Isaiah 66:24

"And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Malachi 4:1-3

"For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. [2] But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. [3] And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts."

Malachi 3:14-18

You have said, 'It is vain to serve God. What is the profit of our keeping his charge or of walking as in mourning before the Lord of hosts? [15] And now we call the arrogant blessed. Evildoers not only prosper but they put God to the test and they escape.' "

[16] Then those who feared the Lord spoke with one another. The Lord paid attention and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the Lord and esteemed his name. [17] "They shall be mine, says the Lord of hosts, in the day when I make up my trea sured possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him. [18] Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him.

Hebrews 10:26-31

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [27] but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. [28] Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? [30] For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." [31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

1 Cor. 6:9-10

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 4:17-18

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? [18] And

"If the righteous is scarcely saved,

what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

2 Peter 2:1-17

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. [2] And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. [3] And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; [5] if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; [6] if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; [7] and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked [8] (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righ teous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); [9] then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, [10] and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, [11] whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. [12] But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, [13] suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. [14] They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! [15] Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, [16] but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

[17] These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.

2 Peter 3:7

But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

NOTE: The ungodly will receive judgment and destruction.

Jude 1:13

wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Rev. 20:12-15

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [13] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. [14] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. [15] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[BobRyan]

2 Thes. 1:9-10 is literally "eonian extermination". Eonian comes from eon, an age, having both a beginning and an end. Another example is the fire eonian that fell on Sodom & Gomorah- Jude 7.

Romans 2 contrasts those who believe on Christ and will thus enjoy eonian life during the eons of the eons (1000 yrs and new earth) versus those who will suffer wrath instead.

I don't see any verses that indicate to me the utter destruction of anyone, although I certainly recognize that most "translations" leave a lot to be desired and can certainly appear to support that viewpoint.

In Matt 10:28 "do not fear those who KILL the body but cannot kill the soul but rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell".

If you believe that the dead bodies of people killed in this life -- actually live on and lead happy lives after death - then you could argue that the even stronger term "destroy" in Matt 10:28 might not really mean "end" - but you are going to extremes in that case.

in Christ,

Bob

[dialoguewithus]

Here are some texts mentioning the coming eon: Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30; Hb 6:5.

This mentions the conclusion of this eon: Mt 13:39.

1 Cor 2:7 mentions before the eons.

Ro 16:25 mentions a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now.

My understanding is based on the clear evidence as I see it: eonian does not mean eternal or everlasting.

I believe that God, through Christ, is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers.

I believe that "chastening" kolasis always refers to pruning, to a judgment for the betterment of the one being chastised. Mt 25:46

The Three Classes of Vivification, encompassing all humanity

(mortality becomes immortality)

1Corinthians 15: "22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. 23 Yet each in his own class: [1]the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon* [2]those who are Christ's in His presence (Second Coming); 24 thereafter* [3]the consummation (of vivification), whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. (by the resurrection and vivification of all who remain in death’s clutches) 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (*1Cor 15:7: "Thereupon He was seen by James, thereafter by all the apostles.")

The consummation of vivification must occur after the new earth, because their will still be kings there- Rev 21:24. God’s word repeatedly mentions Christ as seated at the Father’s right hand until all His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. Ps. 110:1,2; Heb. 1:13; 10:12,13; Eph. 1:20-23; Acts 2:34,35; Mk. 12:36; Lk. 20:42,43. This repetition indicates a theme of great importance, in my opinion.

“Turn toward Me and be saved, all the limits of the earth,

For I am El, and there is no other.

By Myself have I sworn;

From My mouth has gone forth righteousness,

A word, and it shall not turn back:

For to Me shall bow every knee,

And every tongue shall swear fealty*.”

* faithfulness; allegiance

Isaiah 45:22, 23

God bless!

[dialoguewithus]

John317, you mentioned the case of Judas Iscariot.

“But what about Judas Iscariot? Doesn’t it say it would have been better if he’d never been born?

Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!” It would have been ideal (pleasing and peaceful) for Jesus if Judas had not been born. It was nevertheless necessary for him to be born and commit his sin of betrayal in order for scripture to be fulfilled. See Genesis 6:6 and 50:20; John 18:11; Matt. 26:39. (While many Bible versions mistranslate Matt.26:24, some do put the correct rendering in the margin.) Concerning Judas’ title, “son of destruction”, John 17:12, the Greek word is apollumi, often translated, perish or lose. This word is used in the New Testament about 90 times. Many people, animals, and even things are described as being “lost”, “destroyed” or “perished”. It is unwise to assume the word describes “eternal damnation”. “For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost (apollumi).” Luke 19:10. The book All in All, by A. E. Knoch, is very informative on this and some other important topics, such as the eons, the 3 classes of vivification, “hell”, and “annihilation”.

(The Son of Mankind = Christ = Him; "that man" = Judas)

“It says some people will never be forgiven for their sins.”

Matthew 12:31,32 “Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned. And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon, nor in that which is impending.” Verses 24-30 show that this is addressed to a certain group of Israelites whom, as clearly stated, will not be pardoned for their blasphemy, neither in the current eon nor during the 1,000 year kingdom eon. They will be judged at the great white throne and cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

“And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone is worshipping the wild beast and it’s image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin. And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshipping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name””. Rev. 14:9-11. Those receiving “the mark of the beast” will apparently suffer the most severe punishment of all mankind. Believers are advised not to pray for eonian life for those who accept this emblem. 1John 5:13-17. It may be that by receiving the emblem of the wild beast they will be committing the blasphemy of the spirit.

Clearly both of these groups of people will be judged harshly. Nowhere is it stated that they will never be saved.