Are you a PROTESTANT?

[Gibs]

I really believe all should be protestants these days more so than any other time in the history of the world. Every conceivable false doctrines are coming in to the churches that can be found. To not be protesting on some point is to be sound asleep.

My formost protest is the salvation theology that is rampant in all denominational churches of today. It is not teaching we can be overcomers and must be and that we are given the power to do it. All must see it is putting on the Divine Nature is our only hope and way. But the theology leads away from that.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

Eternal fire?

There are three Bible texts which, as they are commonly “translated”, seem to refer directly to the concept of everlasting fire. These texts use the Greek word, “aionion”, transliterated “eonian”. Aionion is an adjective derived from the noun “aeon”, which is transliterated “eon”. Some literal Bible versions render aeon as “age”. Eons are long periods of time, having both a beginning and an end. See Mk. 10:30; Lk. 18:30; Matt. 12:32 and 13:39; Eph. 1:21; and Heb. 6:5. Since the adjective eonian corresponds to the noun, eon, their meanings must be complementary. Since eons end, eonian CANNOT mean “endless”.

Bible references to “eonian fire” or “fire eonian”:

Mt. 18:8

This fire is referred to as “Gehenna” (verse 9). See also Mt. 10:28.

Mt. 25:41

One might ask here, how long will the fire last? Will it last longer than it takes to consume those cast into the fire? If, as many claim, eonian meant everlasting, then the fire would never go out.

Jude 7

Here we are informed that the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian. So they suffered a similar judgment in the past as others will in the future. God rained sulfur and fire from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 19:24. “Up go the fumes of the land as the fumes of a limekiln” –verse 28.

Today there is neither flame nor fume in Sodom; the “eternal fire” has consumed Sodom and the surrounding cities, and has extinguished itself.

Eonian chastening:

Mt. 25:46

Eonian judgment:

Heb. 6:2

Smoke, fumes, fire, sulfur and the eons of the eons

Rev. 14:11

“And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image,

Rev. 20:10

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons.

(See also Rev. 19:3)

In order to understand these texts it is critical to understand the term “the eons of the eons”. While this phrase has often been translated, “forever and ever”, I assert that this is an impossible meaning. First of all, an eon is a finite period of time, having a beginning and an end. Second, an almost identical use of language is found elsewhere in the Bible, giving us clear guidance as to meaning.

Hebrews 9:3

Now after the second curtain is a tabernacle which is termed the holy of holies, having the golden censer and the ark of the covenant…

That was the holiest part of the temple, where the tables of the law were kept. God’s glory was revealed over the ark or chest of the covenant.

Christ is “Lord of lords and King of kings” –Rev. 17:14.

So “Lord of lords”, King of kings”, “holy of holies”, “eon of the eons”, refer to the greatest of their class. The eons of the eons are yet future and can be considered the greatest eons, for Christ and His people will be ruling. Rev. 11:15; 22:5. The eons of the eons are two; the first is about 1,000 years long, and the final eon (the eon of the eons- Ephesians 3:21) will be the new earth eon of Rev. 21 and 22.

The Bible, correctly translated, never describes eternal fire. In fact, there is no word in the Bible which means eternal or everlasting. The Bible refers many times to immortality and the abolition of death, but the word “eternal” is nowhere to be found.

[Gibs]

dialoguewithus,

I'm seeing a lot of dialogue here but wonder if you are a protestant. I know there is many in name only but can't seem to find anything they are in protest of.

In the beginning it was protest of error coming or that was in the churches and I feel that is what it should still be and find that there is much, much room for any and all to find one or many errors to do just that.

Just wondering.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

Gibs

Yes, I would call myself a Protestant. I protest the false teachings from any source but especially from those claiming to represent Christ while going down mistaken paths. We should be kind always and know that most believers are sincere (or at least we aren't qualified to judge them) although we all need to be corrected at times.

[Dr. Waite]

Are you a PROTESTANT? REALLY? What are you protesting these days?

I would rather spend my time on showing reasons, Biblically, that Christ is coming again, and that the Sabbath is a day of celebration.

Those who look back generally do not look forward.

Just sayin'

I PROTEST AGAINST THE COMMITTEE OF THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OF SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS WHO WROTE THE 1980 FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS AND LEFT OUT THE ORIGINAL PHRASE OF WHAT THE BELIEFS WERE WHEN ELLEN G. WHITE WAS A MEMBER:

"That the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments ...... are the only infallible rule of faith and practice."

[dialoguewithus]

The Abolition of Death

Our Savior, Jesus Christ, abolishes death. 2 Tim 1:10.

Death is death, whether the first death, or the second. The lake of fire, which is the second death, cannot abolish death; it is death. And yet, “the last enemy is being abolished: death.” 1 Cor. 15:26. All mankind receive mortality from Adam; we have no say in the matter. 1 Cor. 15:22. Likewise, all mankind will, through the second Adam, receive immortality. We will all be vivified, for we were all justified by Christ’s sacrifice. 2 Cor. 5:14; Ro. 6:7; 1 Tim. 2:1-6. This righteousness of God through Jesus Christ’s faith, is for all, but is now on those who are believing- Romans 3:22. This is so at present, for “not for all is the faith”- 2 Thes. 3:2. So we can rely on the living God, Who is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. 1 Tim. 4:10.

Believers enjoy eonian life while yet mortal. Although subject to death, we participate, in spirit, in the life of the oncoming eons. Once resurrected (or translated), we will enjoy both eonian life and immortality. Immortality and eonian life are two separate subjects; they are by no means equivalent.

Once the eons have concluded, God will complete His plan. Ro. 5:18, 19: Consequently, then, as it was through one offense [Adam’s] for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just reward for all mankind for life’s justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many [all mankind] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many [all mankind] shall be constituted just.

A pattern of sound words

“in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian…”- Ti. 1:2. Here is the clearest evidence that eonian does not mean eternal; there could be no time before “eternal times”. The same expression occurs in 2 Tim. 1:9.

Romans 3 reveals the true condition of every human being; hopeless, helpless and doomed in and of themselves; 10 according as it is written, that "Not one is just"--not even one. 11 Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God. 12 "All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!" 13 "A sepulcher opened is their throat. With their tongues they defraud." "The venom of asps is under their lips." 14 Whose mouth with imprecation and bitterness is crammed. 15 Sharp are their feet to shed blood. 16 "Bruises and wretchedness are in their ways, 17 And the way of peace they do not know." 18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

Because of our sinfulness, we can contribute nothing to our salvation, and none of us deserves salvation, but we all need the Savior. That is why God will reconcile all (Col 1:20). The same basic Greek word for ‘all’ is used in Colossians 1 in verses 16 through 20, and the meaning is clear: ‘all’ means every single one, none excepted.

“Now to the worker, the wage is not reckoned as a favor (grace), but as a debt. Yet to him who is not working, yet is believing on Him Who is justifying the irreverent, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.” “Therefore it is of faith that it may accord with grace...” Ro. 4:4,16. It is ideal to believe what God says, but to make faith spiritual currency with which we obtain His favor is to pervert the truth that we are “being justified gratuitously in His grace” Ro. 3:24. Here Paul is putting additional emphasis on the fact that our salvation is based solely on God’s choice. Ro. 11:5; 9:11,12; 2Thes. 2:13. The definition of “gratuitously” is “without a cause”, or “undeservedly”. “I am not repudiating the grace of God, for if righteousness is through law (or any human action or response), consequently Christ died gratuitously.” Gal. 2:21. Jesus said, “…Yet now they have seen also, and they have hated Me as well as My Father, but it is that the word written in their law may be fulfilled, that they hate Me gratuitously.” Jn. 15:24,25.

Luke 6:32-35 is another wonderful example of char’is (thanks or grace)- grace is not given in response to human cooperation; grace brings about a response on the part of the recipient, but the grace saves, not the response.

God did not subject the creation to vanity – Ro. 8:20- in order to demonstrate the power of evil to thwart His plans; He did so in order to demonstrate His power to save to the utmost. “What are you supposing? If it should be occurring to any man, with a hundred sheep, that even one of them should be led astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine sheep on the mountains, and go back and seek the one which is straying? And if he should come to find it, verily, I am saying to you that he is rejoicing over it, rather than over the ninety-nine that have not strayed. Thus is it not the will of your Father Who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should be perishing.” Matt. 18:12-14.

God saves us freely, for the gratuity in grace to all mankind superabounds! Romans 5:15.

[dialoguewithus]

I protest

I protest the haphazard and partisan renderings found in most Bible versions. This confusing practice is especially evident in the translations affixed to the terms “aeon” (eon), “aionion” (eonian), eons of the eons, and related expressions. Here’s an example which is illustrative of the additional clarity an accurate, literal translation can bring to light:

Heb. 7:17

…“Thou art a priest for the eon according to the order of Melchizedek.”

That this refers to the oncoming eon, commonly termed the millennium, is evident.

Once the final eon commences, there will be no more death, although there will still be many in the second death. Rev. 21:4, 8. So no one will die from that point on, although death itself will not yet have been abolished. 1 Cor 15: 22-28. Neither will all sovereignty, all authority and power have yet been nullified, for there will still be kings on the new earth. Rev. 21:24. They will be reigning for the eons of the eons- Rev. 22:5. Once the final eon concludes Christ will have nullified all other authority, and will give up the kingdom to His God and Father.

But I digress. The matter at hand is the priesthood of Christ, which finalizes at the end of the impending eon, no longer existing on the new earth. Rev. 21:22: And a temple I did not perceive in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lambkin.

So, once the priesthood ends, there is no more need for a temple on the new earth.

Before the consummation of vivification can occur, all intelligences must be subjected to Christ, and God is able to do so, for He is vivifying all. 1 Tim. 6:13. To be mortal is not only to be subject to death, it is to be constituted sinners. (Jesus Christ never sinned, but He did die, so that would be a matter for clarification. Likewise Christ did receive God’s grace, although the term “unmerited favor” would not apply in that case.) Likewise, to be vivified is not only to be immortal, it is to be constituted just.

[John317]

...

Ro 16:25 mentions a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now.

My understanding is based on the clear evidence as I see it: eonian does not mean eternal or everlasting.

Do you ever study the Greek-English lexicons and dictionaries?

If you do, you'll find that eonian has different meanings, depending on the context. It sometimes means "worlds," "universe," "eternal," "everlasting," "age," or an indefinite period of time.

Here's Romans 16: 25 in the KJV and ESV:

Romans 16:25

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.

Romans 16:25

Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages.

Please tell what the meaning is of "forever", "everlasting," "eternity," etc., in the following texts:

Psalm 90:2

Before the mountains were brought forth,

or ever you had formed the earth and the world,

from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Isaiah 57:15

For thus says the One who is high and lifted up,

who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy...

Deut. 33:27

The eternal God is your dwelling place,

and underneath are the everlasting arms.

Matthew 19:16

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?"

Psalm 106:1

Praise the Lord! Oh give thanks to the Lord, for he is good,

for his steadfast love endures forever!

Isaiah 40:8

The grass withers, the flower fades,

but the word of our God will stand forever.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Rev. 22:5

And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

Rev. 14:6

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Jude 1:13

wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Jude 1:21

keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.

Jude 1:25

to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

1 John 5:20

...He is the true God and eternal life.

Eccles. 3:11

... He has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

[John317]

I protest

I protest the haphazard and partisan renderings found in most Bible versions.

Would you be capable of making your own translation of the Bible? If not, it would probably be best for you to accept the translations made by people who have devoted a life-time to translation of the biblical languages and who are acknowledged experts in translation. It looks to me as if you have a theological motive for translating "aonian" a particular way. Theological motives for a particular translation are always suspect.

[dialoguewithus]

Psalm 90:2

Ere the mountains were born, And You travailed with the earth and the habitance, From eon unto eon You are El."

Isaiah 57:15

Who tabernacles the future

Deut. 33:27

the habitation of Elohim aforetime. And beneath are the arms eonian...

Matthew 19:16

eonian life

Psalm 106:1

Praise Yah! Acclaim Yahweh, for He is good! For His benignity is eonian."

Isaiah 40:8

it shall stand firm for the eon.

John 3:16

but have eonian life.

Rev. 22:5

they will reign for the eons of the eons (After which time all authorities besides the Father's will be nullified- 1 Cor. 15:24.)

Rev. 14:6

an eonian evangel

Jude 1:13

for whom the gloom of darkness has been kept for an eon.

Jude 1:21

for life eonian

Jude 1:25

before the entire eon, now, as well as for all the eons.

1 John 5:20

... is the true God and life eonian.

Eccles. 3:11

... He has put obscurity in their heart, so that the man may not find out His work...

http:// studybible.info/

If eonian, or any other word, had different meanings, communication would be impossible. And revelation would be of litle value.

[dialoguewithus]

John317

I doubt I could translate the Bible, nor do I see the need. As for "aonian", I think the bast thing to do, in order to guard against bias, is to simply transliterate it to eonian. Then each person can make his own judgment based on the verse in question and other verses with the same word, as to the meaning. If on the other hand, the "illuminated translators" render it in various ways, How are we to know when the word "aonian" appears in the original, and how are we to know if their translation is right in this verse, but what about that verse, where they translate the same word differently? I therefore prefer the Concordant Literal Version, although there are other literal translations as well.

God bless!

[Windsor]

dialoguewithus,

I, and I think many others, wish that universalism was true. I hate to think of anyone being destroyed permanently. Yet, I am convinced there is no good scriptural or even logical evidence for it. There comes a point in the lives of people where they just won't change their character no matter what evidence is presented to them, even the dead being raised to life! (See the Pharisees) What makes you think there is yet another experience that will finally change the serial killer or the mass murdering dictator or even the mean guy down the street?

"The sinner could not be happy in God's presence; he would shrink from the companionship of holy beings. Could he be permitted to enter heaven, it would have no joy for him. The spirit of unselfish love that reigns there --every heart responding to the heart of Infinite Love --would touch no answering chord in his soul. His thoughts, his interests, his motives, would be alien to

18

those that actuate the sinless dwellers there. He would be a discordant note in the melody of heaven. Heaven would be to him a place of torture; he would long to be hidden from Him who is its light, and the center of its joy. It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them."

Steps to Christ

[John317]

I doubt I could translate the Bible, nor do I see the need.

The reason you couldn't translate the Bible is that you don't know the biblical languages, right?

What would you think of a Spanish-speaking person who knows almost no English but is trying to translate something from English to Spanish and thinks he knows better than people whose native langauge is English and who've been professional translators for decades?

Wouldn't you agree that it would be pretty foolish?

[John317]

Psalm 90:2

...., From eon unto eon You are El."

You haven't translated it. "El" is a transliteration of the Hebrew, and "eon" is a transliteration of the Greek translation [Gk aion] of the Hebrew word "Olam" (Strong's #6759).

What does it mean in plain English to say that God is "El from eon to eon"?

Can you translate it so that ordinary English-speakers will understand what it says?

[dialoguewithus]

John317

I'm not sure I'm following you. You know there are many translations of the Bible into English, and there are many differences between them- none of the translations is divinely inspired. My point is that the more literal and consistent the translation, the better.

As for the reliability of the translators, I don't accept the concept of eternal fire, even though most versions, as far as I know, mention it in Mt. 18:8 and 25:41 and in Jude 7. I mistrust their translation because that would not only conflict with the clear FACT that an eon is a finite period of time, but also because there are many other verses which show me that God is love, is just, is merciful, will vivify all, will subject all, will be All in all, and will be acclaimed by all as Lord, in the Person of His Son, His visible Image.

I think to discourage the investigation of the Scriptures, or to encourage the rote acceptance of the status quo interpretations is the antithesis of Protestantism. But I'm not implying your motives are anything but noble.

[dialoguewithus]

Psalm 90:2, ordinary English-speaker version:

From age to age, you are the One in charge

[John317]

Matthew 19:16

eonian life

If we put these words in the mouth of the rich young ruler, we make him say that he wants to know what he can do to have "eonian life."

But what is that? What exactly does he want?

"Eonian life" means nothing to an English-speaking person.

If you are really translating as you should be, the reader won't find it necessary to look up words in a dictionary or lexicon in order to find out what it means. As a translator, it's your work to show the meaning clearly in the translation.

[John317]

I therefore prefer the Concordant Literal Version, although there are other literal translations as well.

Yes, I have the Concordant Literal as well as many other literal translations, such as Robert Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's Emphasized. I like them all.

[dialoguewithus]

That's really equivalent to saying we shouldn't transliterate to "baptize", because that would have to be looked up in the dictionary. The particular problem with the case of eon and eonian is the pagan theories on the immortality of the soul and eternal hellfire which then found their echo in lamentable mistranslations.

[John317]

I think to discourage the investigation of the Scriptures, or to encourage the rote acceptance of the status quo interpretations is the antithesis of Protestantism.

I'm not encouraging this, but at the same time neither would I encourage everyone to think they are competant translators of the Bible text and that they ought to discount the translations in order to substitute their own private translation. That would result in chaos and in every sort of false teaching.

I could show you many examples of this.

Let one example suffice:

I have a book in which the writer falsely claims that Acts 2: 3 should read "a tongue" instead of "tongues." This writer knows absolutely no Greek, yet he foolishly insists that he is right and all the published translations are wrong. He did not even have anyone with knowledge of Greek read his manuscript before it was published!

Why does he say this? Because his theology requires it. He completely ignores all the facts in order to cling to his false theology. He ignores the fact, for instance, that the Greek word in verse 3 is identical to the word in verse 4, "tongues."

The best thing to do is to take classes in NT Greek before thinking that you are able to translate, just as you would want to study French or Spanish before translating in those languages. When dealing with spiritual matters, it's even more important to know what you're doing before depending on your own translation, particularly when it contradicts all the best translations.

Acts 2: 3,4--

And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The writer of the book I mentioned insists that verse 3 should read, "And a divided tongue as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them."

He's another one who thinks he's capable of translating the Greek on his own although he knows no Greek.

Good idea?

[John317]

That's really equivalent to saying we shouldn't transliterate to "baptize", because that would have to be looked up in the dictionary.

"Baptize" is an English word that most English-speaking people recognize and comprehend. "Immerse" would be a good translation also, however.

[John317]

Rev. 14:6

an eonian evangel

The text says that an angel is seen flying in the midst of heaven and having "an eonian evangel" to preach to every nation on earth.

What is "an eonian evangel"? Again, it's a transliteration, not a translation.

If you ever share your faith with ordinary people on the street, you realize that if you used those words, no one would have the slightest idea of what you said. Therefore you wouldn't be communciating at all because you haven't translated it into the language that people use and understand.

[dialoguewithus]

Baptise, according to most peoples idea, would probably mean sprinkle. And yes, eonian is an unfamiliar word to most Christians, but I still think it's the best equivalent because it doesn't interpret, nor does it lead one to the almost impossible task of explaining how Matt. 25:41-46 uses the word for the life of the believer (undoubtedly permanent, yet that is not the meaning here), and the fire, which I think we agree, will not be permanent.

[Stan]

My point back in the beginning of this is this, do you focus your time on point out what some groups to wrong, or spend the time pointing out what is right?

[Woody]

And you would be right in pointing that out Stan.