Are you a PROTESTANT?

[Stan]

thanks Woody. So nice to see you here.

[John317]

Baptise, according to most peoples idea, would probably mean sprinkle.

Certainly to most Catholics, Lutherans, etc., for sure. Some translations therefore use the word "Immerse" and others use a footnote explaining more fully the significance of the term.

[John317]

My point back in the beginning of this is this, do you focus your time on point out what some groups to wrong, or spend the time pointing out what is right?

The best thing is to preach and give emphasis to the truth, but there are also times when both are needed.

For instance, we find four very great Protestants, Luther, John Knox, John Calvin and Ellen White, doing both. Ellen White's book, Great Controversy, is a good example.

[Woody]

Quote:

For instance, we find four very great Protestants, Luther, John Knox, John Calvin and Ellen White, doing both. Ellen White's book, Great Controversy, is a good example.

Depending upon how it is presented - Great Controversy can be a blessing or a curse.

For me it is my most favorite book from EGW. But for others - it will be the one that was used as a club.

Best to allow people to ask questions before hitting them over the head with the answers.

[fccool]

Quote:

For instance, we find four very great Protestants, Luther, John Knox, John Calvin and Ellen White, doing both. Ellen White's book, Great Controversy, is a good example.

I don't think that one could rightly compare Ellen White with Calvin, or Luther.

If one would transport Ellen into Luther's day and had her try to convince Luther of the doctrine of Sabbath and state of the dead, Luther would have her burned for heresy.

The point being that much of the protestants really split only based on partial disagreements with Catholic church. Luther sought to reform the church. He did not originally sought to split.

Likewise, if you compare SDAs and Catholics, they have more in common than they have different. In fact, much of the liturgy, hierarchy, organization, and church layout in general is borrowed from Catholicism.

I could probably list and count the major differences on one hand.

1) Papal infallibility and office

2) State of the dead

3) Eschatological perspective

4) Priests function of forgiving sins

5) Retaining OT literal commandments and health laws

As far as the similarities:

1) Christs literal atonement as pacification of father's wrath

2) Both claim to be the highest authority of God on earth

3) Both believe in extra-Biblical traditional interpretation of the Bible is validated through divine interpreters who set the standard interpretation to be followed.

4) Trinity as literal three separate persons of God

5) Sacraments of Baptism and Communion as the rites of passage into divine.

6) The idea of clergy and laity that extends beyond mere church function, but as divine appointment by God himself

7) Salvation be be gained and lost

8) Divine Commission of the gospel spreading as responsibility of every believer

Of course there are more minor differences and minor similarities. But overall, there are more similarities than differences.

[ClubV12]

Had Ellen White lived in Luthers time she wouldn't be preaching any different than he was at that time. They would have been great co-workers for the Lord getting out the TIMELY message for that people and feeding them the light that was revealed at that time.

Same thing for Luther had he lived in Ellen Whites time, he would have been amazed at the "new light" and I have no doubt would have readily accepted it.

Easy comparison, two reformers doing the best they could with what they had at the time.

Great Controversy, the bible, pick either one. Some see damnation and anger and push against the Lord. Others see love and warning and are drawn closer to Jesus.

[whatisthis]

I like the verse about all the fullness in Colossians, too! And the 1 Tim one about all the fullness of God as well. Then there's the one about death coming through that one man Adam, and life thru' the one man Christ! Good verses!

The verse about the rod of Iron is in the message to the church of Thyatira. There are several other churches here. Most Adventists who enjoy prophecy see these churches as coming one after the other in order. Thyatira was the fourth church, not into the millenium years yet in that segment. Revelation Seminars usually hit some other highlights, but there's a lot of wonderful stuff in the story of the seven churches, too.

Sounds like maybe you got in with the Shepherd's Rod/ Davidians?

As for the original quest on this thread, Protestants like Luther were hesitant to protest against people, and even church authority, it seems to me. As I look back, it seems to me that what they protested most was ignorance of the Bible, and especially ignorance of the message of righteousness by faith. I hope I am still a Protestant, protesting any wiles of Satan, and pressing forward with wide open eyes toward the high calling we have in Christ Jesus, who is our all in all!

[whatisthis]

It occurs to me that from Hus to Luther, (and onward) men and women too, I suppose, women like Luther's wife Katie, rose up to protest darkness and got violently protested against! Hus and Luther both didn't want to oppose church organization, but to put Jesus before the people (and the church) in the proper light and beauty that Jesus can have in individual lives. It seems to me that they were absolutely astonished by the crushing force of organized religion in response to putting forth the Biblical truths about our freedoms in Christ Jesus. Some of Hus's last recorded words were spoken in surprise that the Christian church could treat him as it was doing. He wasn't trying to start any separate organization, and responded to a summons to come to Rome. I'm glad that eventually people began to realize that Rome didn't have the authority to summon them. Yes, there probably still are churches that hark back to the times of Christ, like the early Celtic church once did, separate from the church of Rome. Most Christian churches today were once a part of Rome, and should continue to protest the right to stand free of that centralized power, but the protest is large than that. If you believe that Jesus died for you, and that His death alone can atone for your sins, that nothing you can do can propitiate for you, and everything He has done, is doing, and will do empowers you to hold your head up as a Christian, aren't you protesting the authority of Satan, who wants you to either work for your salvation or perform some magic incantation. He doesn't want you to know that you are free in Christ Jesus! Legalism and paganism are flip sides of the same coin, and our lives should be a protest against the power of both! They only can be as we positively look to Christ. Stan is right in expressing upward looking. Christ's love raises us above the turmoil. From there we can see back and forward. I don't want to forget the past, and especially don't want to lose hope of the future God has planned. The Christian life is a continuum, it has to be. Jesus is the total representation. When you speak a word, you have to mentally have a total representation occur, not just a string of isolated noises, for anything to come out making sense. Jesus is that representation! He makes sense of it all. I'm so shallow, but He's so high and deep and wide and I'm free to be in Him. Well, I don't even know how to express what I'm trying to express, obviously, but the fullness of Jesus Himself is a positive protest against the dark that really exists, but will vanish when Jesus comes.

[dialoguewithus]

Yes, when I was still a SDA I was with the Davidians for a while. As for the promises to the 7 churches, they seem to be fulfilled after the 2nd coming in every case. I don't know for sure where the conquerors shepherding the nations with an iron club fits into Adventist theology.

I was noticing John 8:51, "If ever anyone should be keeping my word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon."

I imagine most Christians cling to this as proof that they will never die, as it reads in some versions, but I think maybe the Adventists try to "allegorize" it. Sort of like saying "eternal fire" in Mt 25:41 means the results of the fire are eternal, rather than the fire itself.

There are several other doctrines of the SDAs that I can no longer accept because I can't harmonize them with scripture, but the main one is the insistence on the annihilation of "the wicked". Another would be the claim that Christ tried to dissuade Judas from betraying Him. Jn 13:18-21.

God bless!

[John317]

For instance, we find four very great Protestants, Luther, John Knox, John Calvin and Ellen White, doing both. Ellen White's book, Great Controversy, is a good example.

Originally Posted By: fccool

I don't think that one could rightly compare Ellen White with Calvin, or Luther.

If one would transport Ellen into Luther's day and had her try to convince Luther of the doctrine of Sabbath and state of the dead, Luther would have her burned for heresy.

This is false. Luther had a friend who kept the Sabbath, and while Luther disagreed with him, he didn't have him burned for heresy.

Also, Luther agreed with SDAs on the state of the dead. He was changeable on the topic, so he wrote statements from both perspectives, yet there's no doubt he wouldn't have had anyone burned for teaching as SDAs do on the state of the dead.

But be that as it may, my point in bringing up Ellen White's Great Controversy was to show that she herself wrote a great deal pointing out wrong doctrines, just as Luther, Calvin, and Knox did.

[John317]

I don't know for sure where the conquerors shepherding the nations with an iron club fits into Adventist theology.

Have you read the SDA Bible Commentary on those verses in the book of Revelation?

[John317]

[John317]

.... As I look back, it seems to me that what they protested most was ignorance of the Bible, and especially ignorance of the message of righteousness by faith. I hope I am still a Protestant, protesting any wiles of Satan, and pressing forward with wide open eyes toward the high calling we have in Christ Jesus, who is our all in all!

AMEN!

[dialoguewithus]

Have you read the SDA Bible Commentary on those verses in the book of Revelation?

Not recently- what is the gist? I see this as referring to the kingdom promised to Israel which will be delivered to them after the new covenant comes into effect and they accept their Messiah.

[John317]

Depending upon how it is presented - Great Controversy can be a blessing or a curse.

For me it is my most favorite book from EGW. But for others - it will be the one that was used as a club.

It's also my favorite book by EGW. She herself saw it as her most important book and the one she felt most strongly about getting before the public.

Personally I want to be told the truth. If I'm doing wrong according to the Bible, I want people to show me from the Bible that I'm doing it.

As far as The Great Controversy is concerned, do you like and agree with what Ellen White wrote in the chapters, "Facing Life's Record," and "In the Holy of Holies"?

[John317]

...I see this as referring to the kingdom promised to Israel which will be delivered to them after the new covenant comes into effect and they accept their Messiah.

So, do you understand Israel in this context to be literal, physical Israel?

What do you do with the following texts:

Romans 9:6-8

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, [7] and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." [8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Galatians 3:28-29

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

[John317]

Yes, when I was still a SDA I was with the Davidians for a while.

I would like to hear [read] how you became involved with the Davidians. What did you experience while with them?

Why aren't you still an SDA today?

[John317]

...if you compare SDAs and Catholics, they have more in common than they have different.

I agree with this, but the disagreements and differences are extremely important.

The biggest and most important difference between Catholics and SDAs has to do with the papal system.

One other very big difference is the fact that the Catholic Church views tradition as a greater authority than the Scriptures themselves.

There's also the problem of the Mass, where the RCC teaches that Christ is made a "bloodless sacrifice."

The RCC's theology and organization would utterly collapse without the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Almost everything in the RCC is in some way related to its belief in prayers to and for the dead.

When we look deep into the doctrines of the two churches, we find that the agreements that SDAs have with the RCC are superficial.

[John317]

...Great Controversy...For me it is my most favorite book from EGW.

Have you seen and do you have the beautiful illustrated edition that was recently published? I just bought a copy. I believe all the first printing of it had a page missing-- a page between 302 and 303. (Because of that defect, it was on sell at the ABC for $15.00.) Other than that, and the fact that it doesn't include the Introduction, it's the best and most attractive edition of GC that I've ever seen.

I understand that future printings will include the Introduction.

[Gail]

Have you seen and do you have the beautiful illustrated edition that was recently published? I just bought a copy. I believe all the first printing of it had a page missing-- a page between 302 and 303. (Because of that defect, it was on sell at the ABC for $15.00.) Other than that, and the fact that it doesn't include the Introduction, it's the best and most attractive edition of GC that I've ever seen.

I understand that future printings will include the Introduction.

I second that about its beauty!

[dialoguewithus]

John317

I don't see any problem with the Romans text but admittedly the Galatians text could be fatal to my understanding. It's not hard to see why there are so many different beliefs among Christians.

I had a friend who became a Davidian and he loaned me materials and we talked quite a bit and I came to accept their viewpoints. I went to the headquarters in Missouri for a meeting. I experienced some sincere people who follow a prophet named Houteff, I believe, as well as another named White. Anyway, I don't subscribe to either anymore, and like I said, there are quite a few things in the Adventist faith which I can't sustain biblically, so I left.

I wouldn't say that prayers for the dead is the exclusive domain of those who believe in the immortality of the soul. Others believe the dead are presently dead but nevertheless will one day be immortal. Those like myself would not hesitate to pray for the salvation of all mankind. ---

The two Adams and the two trees

I believe that the work of Christ on the post at Calvary is more effective and universal than the work of Adam at the tree of knowledge, rather than the reverse.

I believe that where sin increases, grace superexceeds.

I believe every tongue, celestial, terrestrial, and subterranean, will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father. (And I DON’T believe He will thereafter annihilate those who didn’t so acclaim before a certain “deadline”.)

“But not as the offense, thus also the grace. For if by the offense of the one, the many died, much rather the grace of God and the gratuity in grace, which is of the One Man, Jesus Christ, to the many superabounds.” Romans 5:15

Those condemned and constituted sinners by the one offense, will be justified and constituted just by the obedience of the One. –verses 18 & 19

“For even as, in Adam, all are dying (all mankind is mortal), thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified (all mankind will be immortal).” 1 Cor. 15:22

I believe all humanity was in Christ before we were in Adam; that we were saved (while we were, in potential, in the Son) before we were lost (while we were, in potential, in Adam).

__Between my computer, my typing, and especially, my connection, I don’t know if I’ll be with you much longer but I wish you all the best!

I like reading Liberty magazine- always appreciated SDA promotion of liberty. God bless!

[John317]

Just wondering if the copies you sold in Canada also had those two pages missing.

[whatisthis]

I agree that differences are huge! I want to address your list of similarities, and how I see them. May I? Well, I'll barge ahead.

Christ's literal atonement is the pacification of the Father's wrath--at what? At sinners? No, not at all! A Biblical presentation of this in John 3:16 will clearly show us that what Ellen exclaims in Steps to Christ about the Father having loved Jesus even more for being willing to love us so, is so Biblical! Think of it this way. A judge finds his own daughter accused of a terrible crime. The judge pays personally for the crime and the case is dismissed--so the daughter can commit terrible crimes? No, so the law can be upheld and the daughter can live to do good deeds she'd never have been able to do otherwise! Sin hurts on a personal, community, nationwide, and worldwide level. Sin is stuff that mangles and ruins and leaves a wake of hate. God is angry at all the pain, He wants the holocaust to stop! And it stops, with Christ throwing himself under the terrible wheels of the horrible thing called sin that mangles and destroys, predictably. But remember, that's not all there is. He rises! And in that rising the case is turned around with every good girl and guy who loves kindness and gentleness and building living forever free! We're now able to live that kind of life, the good life, with no shame!

[whatisthis]

[dialoguewithus]

The book I mentioned earlier (All in All) is available online: http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=