Is salvation the whole purpose?

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

***WARNING***

This post will contain things some may find heresy. It will contain questioning and doubt in the "Divine Plan" as most Christians see it. If that bothers you a lot - well you have been warned.

I read on and on about salvation here. Its the focus of everything. Arguements about how to achieve it, I have gotten warnings that I best change and believe what I am told before its too late or I won't find it. People claiming one needs perfection to get it, others saying its available to all.

The thing is though, I wonder if people focus on it way to much. I don't think its the point of our existance. (some of you might want to take a minute and slow your heart rate at this point )

Lets say that God did create us like the Bible says. Lets also say that he knew at the point of creation that we would fall to sin and degragation. He knew that he was gonna throw up his hands and say ENOUGH and destroy everyone but one family with a flood. He knew that after a time people would no longer believe his promise of the rainbow and that they would try to build the tower of Babel. He knew that he would send a saviour that would be rejected by his own chosen people. He knew that the message of that saviour would be perverted and twisted and that many great wars would be fought over it. He knew that millions would die in the name of his son.

He also knew that billions would reject him or never know him.

So did he create us just to get a very small percentage of his children for companions for all time in the end? Those that accepted his terms and found salvation?

I don't think so.

Nor do I think we are the pawns in a great battle between him and the Devil.

I think if we were created with him knowing all of this he did it for a totally different reason. If we were indeed created as his children I think he did it because he needed to actually see what would happen. I think he also admitted to making some mistakes with the flood and the corresponding promise to never go that route again. Before anyone has a coranary over that - I say that with admiration. It takes great integrity and honour to say - hmmmmm I screwed up, wait I screwed up twice.

In the end I think if we were put on this planet by God, I think we were put here as an extension of how he see's himself. As aspects of his complete nature. So he could see an idea in action.

So this brings me back to salvation. I think the greatest thing we can do to honour this God (or what I call the Divine) is to JUST LIVE THE LIFE HE GAVE US. Live it with honour, dignity, honesty and integrity. Know that perfection is not about never doing wrong, but in recognizing our wrongs and shortcomings and fixing them. Growing and developing our morals and our values. Remembering that in each of us is the breath of life that is the Divine and searching to know that in ourselves, but in a productive way on this earth. Making it a better place for ourselves, our children, our friends, our enemies and the generations of the future.

Can I get an AMEN up in here?

[Woody]

To ME. There is nothing more important than being with Jesus - My Savior. But some make salvation such a difficult task. It is not difficult. We were ALL predestined to be saved. Our Savior made the plan for us. ALL we have to do is accept it.

[BibleOnly]

Interesting post. My answer would be that salvation comes to the church because God uses the church to restore Israel. Israel is the central part of God's plan, but He knew the end from the beginning, and created things so that a salvation for all would be offered as part of His plan for their restoration. So, in that sense, salvation is not 'the central thing'.

[Q.E.D.]

My answer would be that salvation comes to the church because God uses the church to restore Israel.

Jesus Christ is the Israel of God.

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

So did he create us just to get a very small percentage of his children for companions for all time in the end? Those that accepted his terms and found salvation?

I don't think so.

"13 ¶ *Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."(Eccles 12:13)

"15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."(1 Tim 1:15)

Q.E.D.

[Gerr]

Can I get an AMEN up in here?

Sorry, not from me, friend. Too much - "I think" and not enough - "Thus says the Lord," or "It is written."

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

My answer would be that salvation comes to the church because God uses the church to restore Israel.

Jesus Christ is the Israel of God.

Q.E.D.

I'm not even sure what that means. Israel is the Israel of God.

[Gail]

Good question- and an interesting mix of responses.

I'm happy, EmptyCross, that you are contemplating spiritual things. I pray that you will keep seeking, for life is even more than what we think now. In Him it really does get better :)

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Can I get an AMEN up in here?

Sorry, not from me, friend. Too much - "I think" and not enough - "Thus says the Lord," or "It is written."

I was not actually expecting one, from anyone really. It was a joke.

[M. T. Cross]

Good question- and an interesting mix of responses.

I'm happy, EmptyCross, that you are contemplating spiritual things. I pray that you will keep seeking, for life is even more than what we think now. In Him it really does get better

I have been contemplating spiritual things for the better part of my 41 years. Its what I do, my wife calls it my "Quest"

I agree life is more than we think now. Much more. I am just not sure that the Him you refer to is the Him for everyone. Still that said, we have to make it through the life we have in front of us. I think a big part of finding the "MORE" is making the "NOW" as productive and good as we can for all those around us and for generations to come.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Jesus Christ is the Israel of God.

Q.E.D.

I'm not even sure what that means. Israel is the Israel of God.

What it means is that Jesus is the embodiment of what Israel is all about. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of Israel where national Israel failed. If we are Christ's, then we are Abraham's seed. If we are grafted into Christ, we are part of the Israel of God.

[Gibs]

For all to keep in mind,

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Lu 13:23 ¶ Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

Lu 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Can I get an AMEN up in here?

Sorry, not from me, friend. Too much - "I think" and not enough - "Thus says the Lord," or "It is written."

What if I had posted that the Lord had come to me in a vision and wanted me to share this with you?

Would I get an Amen then?

Or would you say it was false prophecy?

[olger]

There are two things more important than our salvation:

1) God's glory.

2) Other people's salvation,

g

[M. T. Cross]

There are two things more important than our salvation:

1) God's glory.

2) Other people's salvation,

g

If that is true Olger then why do we hear so much more about Gods wrath than his glory?

[M. T. Cross]

See I find this to be a positive message

Quote:

It was at Gamala, during the evening conference, that Philip said to Jesus: “Master, why is it that the Scriptures instruct us to ‘fear the Lord,’ while you would have us look to the Father in heaven without fear? How are we to harmonize these teachings?” And Jesus replied to Philip, saying:

“My children, I am not surprised that you ask such questions. In the beginning it was only through fear that man could learn reverence, but I have come to reveal the Father’s love so that you will be attracted to the worship of the Eternal by the drawing of a son’s affectionate recognition and reciprocation of the Father’s profound and perfect love. I would deliver you from the bondage of driving yourselves through slavish fear to the irksome service of a jealous and wrathful King-God. I would instruct you in the Father-son relationship of God and man so that you may be joyfully led into that sublime and supernal free worship of a loving, just, and merciful Father-God.

“The ‘fear of the Lord’ has had different meanings in the successive ages, coming up from fear, through anguish and dread, to awe and reverence. And now from reverence I would lead you up, through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love. When man recognizes only the works of God, he is led to fear the Supreme; but when man begins to understand and experience the personality and character of the living God, he is led increasingly to love such a good and perfect, universal and eternal Father. And it is just this changing of the relation of man to God that constitutes the mission of the Son of Man on earth.

“Intelligent children do not fear their father in order that they may receive good gifts from his hand; but having already received the abundance of good things bestowed by the dictates of the father’s affection for his sons and daughters, these much loved children are led to love their father in responsive recognition and appreciation of such munificent beneficence. The goodness of God leads to repentance; the beneficence of God leads to service; the mercy of God leads to salvation; while the love of God leads to intelligent and freehearted worship.

“Your forebears feared God because he was mighty and mysterious. You shall adore him because he is magnificent in love, plenteous in mercy, and glorious in truth. The power of God engenders fear in the heart of man, but the nobility and righteousness of his personality beget reverence, love, and willing worship. A dutiful and affectionate son does not fear or dread even a mighty and noble father. I have come into the world to put love in the place of fear, joy in the place of sorrow, confidence in the place of dread, loving service and appreciative worship in the place of slavish bondage and meaningless ceremonies. But it is still true of those who sit in darkness that ‘the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.’ But when the light has more fully come, the sons of God are led to praise the Infinite for what he is rather than to fear him for what he does.

“When children are young and unthinking, they must necessarily be admonished to honor their parents; but when they grow older and become somewhat more appreciative of the benefits of the parental ministry and protection, they are led up, through understanding respect and increasing affection, to that level of experience where they actually love their parents for what they are more than for what they have done. The father naturally loves his child, but the child must develop his love for the father from the fear of what the father can do, through awe, dread, dependence, and reverence, to the appreciative and affectionate regard of love.

“You have been taught that you should ‘fear God and keep his commandments, for that is the whole duty of man.’ But I have come to give you a new and higher commandment. I would teach you to ‘love God and learn to do his will, for that is the highest privilege of the liberated sons of God.’ Your fathers were taught to ‘fear God — the Almighty King.’ I teach you, ‘Love God — the all-merciful Father.’

“In the kingdom of heaven, which I have come to declare, there is no high and mighty king; this kingdom is a divine family. The universally recognized and unreservedly worshiped center and head of this far-flung brotherhood of intelligent beings is my Father and your Father. I am his Son, and you are also his sons. Therefore it is eternally true that you and I are brethren in the heavenly estate, and all the more so since we have become brethren in the flesh of the earthly life. Cease, then, to fear God as a king or serve him as a master; learn to reverence him as the Creator; honor him as the Father of your spirit youth; love him as a merciful defender; and ultimately worship him as the loving and all-wise Father of your more mature spiritual realization and appreciation.

“Out of your wrong concepts of the Father in heaven grow your false ideas of humility and springs much of your hypocrisy. Man may be a worm of the dust by nature and origin, but when he becomes indwelt by my Father’s spirit, that man becomes divine in his destiny. The bestowal spirit of my Father will surely return to the divine source and universe level of origin, and the human soul of mortal man which shall have become the reborn child of this indwelling spirit shall certainly ascend with the divine spirit to the very presence of the eternal Father.

“Humility, indeed, becomes mortal man who receives all these gifts from the Father in heaven, albeit there is a divine dignity attached to all such faith candidates for the eternal ascent of the heavenly kingdom. The meaningless and menial practices of an ostentatious and false humility are incompatible with the appreciation of the source of your salvation and the recognition of the destiny of your spirit-born souls. Humility before God is altogether appropriate in the depths of your hearts; meekness before men is commendable; but the hypocrisy of self-conscious and attention-craving humility is childish and unworthy of the enlightened sons of the kingdom.

“You do well to be meek before God and self-controlled before men, but let your meekness be of spiritual origin and not the self-deceptive display of a self-conscious sense of self-righteous superiority. The prophet spoke advisedly when he said, ‘Walk humbly with God,’ for, while the Father in heaven is the Infinite and the Eternal, he also dwells ‘with him who is of a contrite mind and a humble spirit.’ My Father disdains pride, loathes hypocrisy, and abhors iniquity. And it was to emphasize the value of sincerity and perfect trust in the loving support and faithful guidance of the heavenly Father that I have so often referred to the little child as illustrative of the attitude of mind and the response of spirit which are so essential to the entrance of mortal man into the spirit realities of the kingdom of heaven.

“Well did the Prophet Jeremiah describe many mortals when he said: ‘You are near God in the mouth but far from him in the heart.’ And have you not also read that direful warning of the prophet who said: ‘The priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money. At the same time they profess piety and proclaim that the Lord is with them.’ Have you not been well warned against those who ‘speak peace to their neighbors when mischief is in their hearts,’ those who ‘flatter with the lips while the heart is given to double-dealing’? Of all the sorrows of a trusting man, none are so terrible as to be ‘wounded in the house of a trusted friend.’”

[BibleOnly]

Yes, the 'fear of the Lord' can just mean to respect Him for who He is, as opposed to being terrified of Him.

[Dr. Shane]

If that is true Olger then why do we hear so much more about Gods wrath than his glory?

Maybe you are hanging out with the wrong people.

I hear much more about God's love than God's wrath. In fact, I would have to say for each comment I hear from someone about God's wrath, I probably hear 15 - 20 comments about His love. Perhaps that is because of the group of friends I hang around.

For me religion is mostly about discovering what God's will is for my life so I can experience the abundant life He has planned for me. I am convinced that my way is not the right way. I tend to be very self-destructive.

Salvation is a by-product. What I gain most from my religion is peace with God and, most visibly, peace with those around me. I certainly hope that I am saved. If I understand the Bible correctly, I can honestly claim that I am. But that is not the focus of my life. My salvation really is in the hands of Christ. I can't save myself - only He can do that. So I am most concerned with living each day the way He has planned for me because I think that is the best way to avoid trouble.

[BibleOnly]

One would guess that an atheist who argues the point will hear a lot about God's wrath, and someone who goes to church will hear a lot about His glory

[M. T. Cross]

One would guess that an atheist who argues the point will hear a lot about God's wrath, and someone who goes to church will hear a lot about His glory

Where is the atheist?

[ClubV12]

1) God's glory.

2) Other people's salvation

Thanks Olger, I really appreciate and accept that outlook on Christianity.

[Gerr]

If that is true Olger then why do we hear so much more about Gods wrath than his glory?

Those who concentrate on His wrath, I suspect, want to scare people into heaven.

[Gibs]

Is salvation the whole purpose?

It was the whole purpose of God the Father that he gave us of Himself in His only begotten son that man could ALL be saved.

It becomes our whole purpose to take up the way He has made if we want eternal life.

Then we praise and Glorify God and our hearts go out in service to lead others to that wonderful promise we have found that they too would fulfill His purpose and for them the salvation of their souls.

It isn't a message of hell fire but a message to deliver from that eternal fire that is the second death.

His way is light and easy and it sets one free and in a peace never before experienced. It brings one to be a freeman or woman within His will for us.

Our God, Yahweh and our Redeemer, Yahshua/Jesus are Wonderful

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Oddly Gibs I don't see to many that have that kind of peace you speak of. I see more people fighting over the fine points of theology.

Yet I see a great number of pagans so at peace it blows your mind

I see Buddhists that have that peace

I see Atheists that have that peace

I have seen Christians that have it - but their numbers as so small in comparison.

[BibleOnly]

I think you misunderstand. Having peace doesn't mean never caring about anything. I have peace within myself, even when others here engage me to prove I am demon possessed, because I know I have God inside me. That doesn't mean there's never controversy. It's easy to have peace when things are good. The point is to have peace all the time, no matter what.

Of course, it's also a mistake to say that if you can find a Christian who doesn't act the way you expect, that you can blame God for men not being perfect.