Questions

[Dr. Rich]

Quote:

This answer makes a great deal of sense. I am a huge fan of alot of what Jesus had to say. However its hard to say if any other could have answered the questions as we have no record of any other being asked

Matthew 24 points out the questions that the disciples were asking about what is going to happen in the last days of this world. Anyone other than Jesus as the Son of God would have answered the question another way without the warning because they would not have known about what was going to happen.

Quote:

Fair enough, but how do I know Jesus was inspired? How do I know he was not simply a very studied and educated scholar?

Great question! Jesus was NOT inspired nor did He have or need 'faith'. Jesus KNEW who He was and told his disciples exactly when and how things were going to take place. His death was exactly the same time (hour and day) as when the Priest was to kill the Passover lamb. Who, but the Son of God would know about this, tell about it and have it happen exactly as it did? I could write a book about many other such evidence, but it all adds up to one thing--Jesus WAS the Son of God who had been Michael before being placed into Mary (she was just a test tube). However, Jesus was NOT the same as the Father, as Jesus said only the Father knows the day and hour when Jesus will return. But Jesus does know this now because we are told in Rev. 1:1 about this.

Quote:

Exactly. He commanded the Hebrew people to have no other Gods. He did not say that others of other nations should not honour their Gods tho. See I do not at all doubt the existance of the Hebrew God. But from all my reading of him, he does not seem terribly different from the Greek, Nordic, Celtic etc. Gods.

What you said is more important than you think! Satan is a master at deception and his involvment with man in creating gods (the fallen angels who are demons) for nations of the world BEFORE the creation of Adam (yes, read my lips) is the true answer as to why Adam was made and placed into a seperated garden where new animals and plants were created, in order to have Adam be a witness as to the real Creator God. Adam was created mortal, just as the first humans (all races) were created in the 6 day creation thousands of years before Adam. But the rest of the world would then be able to see that Adam would not have to die or even have to work for his food as them, and they would then see for themselves who was really the real God! It's as simple as that!

Quote:

Again, great answer. But are you saying that the multitude of other Christian denominations that also observe the Sabbath are not following the other 10 commandments? What differentiates Adventists from them?

No, not at all. I am not even saying that those saved will only be in Christian denominations as I believe people from all religions will ask themselves what is the real truth and will see the truth when it will be presented to them during the time of trouble (See Rev. 7:9-15). However, Adventists will be the ones who are judged first (Rev. 11:1-2) as they are the KOH who the 7 messages to them are found in Rev. 2 and 3. That means the door will close on the 5 foolish out of the SDA group before those from all over the worlds religions, also.

Quote:

That is a fantastic answer. I think you nailed how I feel about Jesus there, other than I am not so sure that he really was deity (note that I am not sure either way! )

Either Jesus was Who He said He was, or not and lied. Jesus made it known that He was not the same as His Father when He said that ONLY His Father knew and would make known the time (hour and day) when Jesus would return. Now Jesus has made this known to ONLY His bondservants living in the last generation. But it is not yet the time for this information to be revealed to any others. (Matt. 24:45 and Rev. 1:1 and Dan. 12:10)

[M. T. Cross]

Your last comment there was more important than you know! That is exactly what I am trying to determine here. Was Jesus who he said he was? Was he misrepresented by the writers of the Bible?

[fccool]

Quote:

Either Jesus was Who He said He was, or not and lied. Jesus made it known that He was not the same as His Father when He said that ONLY His Father knew and would make known the time (hour and day) when Jesus would return. Now Jesus has made this known to ONLY His bondservants living in the last generation. But it is not yet the time for this information to be revealed to any others. (Matt. 24:45 and Rev. 1:1 and Dan. 12:10)

This is actually a famous C.S. Lewis argument. But, I believe it creates an unnecessary, and contrived dilemma that does not observe other possibilities.

[BibleOnly]

Your last comment there was more important than you know! That is exactly what I am trying to determine here. Was Jesus who he said he was? Was he misrepresented by the writers of the Bible?

Question. If all you need is blind faith in a God who gives no proof, what could possibly convince you that he was more than a man with some nice ideas ? Of course, this would be true even if that god was the God of the Bible, this does not prove my case. But, the question is, what would convince you assuming I am wrong about God offering evidence ? What do people replying to you hope to use to convince you ?

[M. T. Cross]

Your last comment there was more important than you know! That is exactly what I am trying to determine here. Was Jesus who he said he was? Was he misrepresented by the writers of the Bible?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Question. If all you need is blind faith in a God who gives no proof, what could possibly convince you that he was more than a man with some nice ideas ? Of course, this would be true even if that god was the God of the Bible, this does not prove my case. But, the question is, what would convince you assuming I am wrong about God offering evidence ? What do people replying to you hope to use to convince you ?

Honestly I don't know. Blind faith is just crazy to me. But you say your God proves himself. Awesome, yet I have spent years begging him to give me some proof and yet I get none.

I don't know what they could use - personal experiences are great.

What I am doing here is this BibleOnly ( I refuse to shorten that down to BO )is asking people of a denomination that is really big on converting people to give me a reason to convert! Oddly though it seems that the majority would rather argue with you (who is already a Christian) over semantics than actually try to give a deep heartfelt personal testimony as to why I should give up my "evil" beliefs and join them

To those that took the time to post here I really really appreciate that! THere are also a couple that have talked enough to me in pm's that they don't need to post in this thread.

Yes, I find it interesting that you seem to be being asked for an excuse to convert and the people most vocal in attacking me, are silent.

I had my own journey of faith through many churches before I became a Christian. The fact is, the reason we have the Bible is that Paul had to write letters to guide the churches, and the churches were often encouraged to guide and support each other. It's not enough, in the Bible, for you to have an experience with God, you also need to live your life in Him, which is best done with the support of other people with the same experience. So, I understand why I had to find a church that told me what the Bible said, in order to experience it. If you want to PM me and tell me where you are, I'd be happy to see if I know of a church in your area where you can be given an opportunity to be baptised, or to pray and ask God for your salvation, and expect the answer that the Bible offers.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Your last comment there was more important than you know! That is exactly what I am trying to determine here. Was Jesus who he said he was? Was he misrepresented by the writers of the Bible?

Question. If all you need is blind faith in a God who gives no proof, what could possibly convince you that he was more than a man with some nice ideas ? Of course, this would be true even if that god was the God of the Bible, this does not prove my case. But, the question is, what would convince you assuming I am wrong about God offering evidence ? What do people replying to you hope to use to convince you ?

Answer: Blind faith is what ALL of the religions of the world have in common and want people to have-as this keeps them dumb and happy. NEVER did Jesus even hint that one can be saved by this 'blind faith'. After all, faith allows one to believe in a lie without having to worry about searching for the truth and practicing the truth. And, as has 'Rush' said many times, "You can't argue facts with one who has established their belief upon faith, because to them facts don't mean anything."

Here is the thing: We would be in serious trouble of not being able to know the real truth IF Jesus had not come to this world to testify to this truth and then present prophecy which is NOT prediction because Jesus KNOWS what is going to happen, to those who search for and want to know the real truth. Yes, there are some humans that right now KNOW this truth, but are being treated like Galaleo was treated by the church for knowing the truth about the round world.

It's a matter of FACT that all of the 144,000 (a real number) bondservants for Jesus Christ who have overcome sin and have become righteous, will know the absolute truth. They will no longer have 'faith' as their knowledge of and about God makes it impossible to question the things of God any longer.

Problem is, Satan had others who said they were OF Jesus Christ and made themselves apostles and preached and taught a totally different gospel than what Jesus came here to tell and teach. God allowed them to plant their seed in the same place as where Jesus planted His seed--the New Testament, in order for people to have a choice to follow the words of Jesus OR to follow the words of others who never met Jesus, but were sweet sounding words and saying that if anyone preached or taught another gospel other than what he taught that he would put a curse on them, EVEN if they were an angel sent from God in Heaven! Wow! Some nerve! (See Rev. 2:2)

[BibleOnly]

You know that Paul never actually contradicts anything Jesus said, right ?

[Dr. Rich]

You know that Paul never actually contradicts anything Jesus said, right ?

No, I didn't know that! Try this for size: Compare Matthew 22:37-40 with Gal. 5:14? Also compare John 15:1-11 with Rom. 11:17. That should keep you busy for a while.

Also try this: Try to find ONE thing that Paul said and taught that was the same thing as what Jesus said and taught and given to us by His eyewitnesses, other than about divorce? If you can do this then you will do something that no one else has ever done.

[BibleOnly]

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

Wow. You honestly claim that Paul meant we don't need to love God. It's clear to a blind man that Paul is referring to those parts of the law that relate to how we treat each other. You're being overly legalistic and playing word games. Unless there's a verse that has Paul telling us that we should not love God ?

Jhn 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Jhn 15:9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

What is the correlation here ? Two different analogies using trees, so what ? There's no contradiction here. I'm sorry, but [that is idiotic]. I really don't want to talk to you anymore. This is just a bad joke, it's really quite sad.

[Overaged]

I am asking these questions with sincerity. Yes I will likely want to discuss the answers.

1. Why should I believe the Bible over any other spiritual writing?

2. Why should I believe it was divinely inspired?

3. Why should I believe that your God is the only God? Or better than any other Gods?

4. Why should I accept that the SDA church has more truth than any other Christian denomination. They all claim to have the truth too

5. Why should I accept the Christian philosophy over Buddhism, Shinto, Islam, Hindu, Asatru, Neo-Druidry, Helllenism, Kemetisism, or any other religion?

LOL; I have not even heard of a couple of those things in #5...But you ask a lot of good questions. It almost seems as if each one could be a topic all on it's own. Do you have any one of them which would be a priority for you to discuss? I would find it hard to answer fairly to each question in one post kind of thing. What are your thoughts?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I am asking these questions with sincerity. Yes I will likely want to discuss the answers.

1. Why should I believe the Bible over any other spiritual writing?

2. Why should I believe it was divinely inspired?

3. Why should I believe that your God is the only God? Or better than any other Gods?

4. Why should I accept that the SDA church has more truth than any other Christian denomination. They all claim to have the truth too

5. Why should I accept the Christian philosophy over Buddhism, Shinto, Islam, Hindu, Asatru, Neo-Druidry, Helllenism, Kemetisism, or any other religion?

LOL; I have not even heard of a couple of those things in #5...But you ask a lot of good questions. It almost seems as if each one could be a topic all on it's own. Do you have any one of them which would be a priority for you to discuss? I would find it hard to answer fairly to each question in one post kind of thing. What are your thoughts?

No priority really. In a way they all more or less ask the same thing. They all ask #5.

Which things in question 5 have you not heard of OA?

[Overaged]

Neo-Druidry

Kemetisism

Asatru

I have heard of Druids; but not "Neo Druids"

I think there are quite a few reasons why people choose a given religion - sometimes sociological, environmental, theological; inherited, etc.

It's hard to question a person's motives for their religion, but as to the question of why choose one over the other? Well; I have told some people to stay in their own church because they wanted to leave theirs for the wrong reason...I guess that's a beginning in answering your question?

We can certainly continue, if you are game?

[M. T. Cross]

Neo Druidry - Called Neo as it is essentially borrowing the name. There is so very little information on what the Druids did, believed, or how they acted its pretty much impossible to continue it as a religion. So, what neo druids are, is a people that take that "stewardship of the earth" very seriously. For some it is a religion, others identifying as Druids come from diverse religious practices including Christianity. For them it is more of a lifestyle than a religion.

Kemetisism. The followers of the old Egyptian Gods. I really do not know a lot about it, as the brief study I did into it just left me cold and bored.

Asatru - IMO, the religion with the highest moral code I have ever seen. They follow the Nordic/Germanic Gods - Odin Thor Freyr etc. Asatru is a blanket phrase like Christianity. There are within it many different approaches to it.

I am game. Like I said earlier, all I ask for in the answer to these questions is people honest experience and thoughts.

[Overaged]

Alrighty! I'll be back asap. Got to go for now.

But I will say one thing, as a contractor, I have always wondered how my framing skills would change if I had Thor's hammer!!

[M. T. Cross]

You would likely break a lot of boards

A side note to Asatru, due to Hitlers use of runes it has gotten a bad rap as being racist. And as a result there have been a number of white suprmecy groups that have called themselves "Odinists". They are considered in the Asatru community much the same as the Neo Nazi groups that call themselves Christians and say they can support their hate with the Bible.

[Overaged]

You would likely break a lot of boards

LOL; maybe, eh? But for when I come back - lets use this as an example to begin answering your question. Just what was this "power of Thor" as mentioned on the hammer's inscription? What official sources can we use to figure that out?

[M. T. Cross]

First let us differentiate between Marvel Comics Thor and the Thor of the Eddas.

Marvel took a number of Deity and turned them into cartoon characters. I am just waiting for them to come up with G.I. Jesus.

The saying inscribed on that Hammer is a Marvel comic thing. It is not out of the Eddas at all. The religion of Asatru is not based on Marvel Comics

A good official source can be found by reading the Prose and Poetic Edda's

[Overaged]

LOL, ya you are likely quite right. I looked closer at that hammer and decided the only thing I could do with it is to use it as an icebreaker in the winter, or for busting up cement.

I'll check those references out you cited and "see" you here later tonight! I am off to a bird sanctuary to take pictures of creatures who appear to know more than I do about life.

[M. T. Cross]

Dude that sounds like an awesome time. Take lots of pics.

Birds may know more about life than you and I. I think animals have a great connection to the Divine with the lack of Ego.

[Stan]

Birds have a lack of ego? Have you ever owned a budgie ?

Or should I say, has a budgie ever owned you?

[Tom Wetmore]

Interesting thought of animals being close to the Divine....

[M. T. Cross]

Interesting thought of animals being close to the Divine....

Close, but not as we would percieve it. Personally I think all of nature is manifestations of the Divine. As humans we like to complicate that with a lot of theology, doctrine and dogma. Animals........... they just ARE!

I was once on a city bus in the Vancouver area on my way to work. My job at the time required I carry both a cell phone and a pager (no I was not a drug dealer ). They both went off at the same time and as they did I looked out the bus window and saw a deer just waking up on the lawn of a hospital that we were passing. It really struck me at that moment how we as humans twist and bend our lives around to make them as hard as possible - usually in the name of progress and comfort. Animals sleep when they are tired, eat when they are hungery, you know what I mean? Of course they risk predators, but then so do we. We are our own worst predator.

[Stan]

Ist line of Steps to Christ goes something like this

"Nature and revelation alike testify of God's love. Our Father in heaven is the source of life, of wisdom, and of joy. Look at the wonderful and beautiful things of nature. Think of their marvelous adaptation to the needs and happiness, not only of man, but of all living creatures. "

Is that what you are talking about EC?

[M. T. Cross]

Ist line of Steps to Christ goes something like this

"Nature and revelation alike testify of God's love. Our Father in heaven is the source of life, of wisdom, and of joy. Look at the wonderful and beautiful things of nature. Think of their marvelous adaptation to the needs and happiness, not only of man, but of all living creatures. "

Is that what you are talking about EC?

More or less.

Nature is............ how can I put this....

When all of mans words failed, when all the spiritual writing I read failed, I could never let go of the idea of a Divine force in the universe because of nature. How that came to be - is a discussion for the Origins forum. But I think that we can learn a lot about the nature of the Divine from the nature of earth and what we know about the universe outside of our own planet. There is an adapting order to all of it. So many tiny factors working together and aiding each other thing. Humans could do well to learn from that IMO.