Questions

[BibleOnly]

I think you're very right, the Bible even says as much, but, the risk is that we end up worshipping the creation instead of the creator, as the Bible also says.

[Overaged]

When all of mans words failed, when all the spiritual writing I read failed, I could never let go of the idea of a Divine force in the universe because of nature. How that came to be - is a discussion for the Origins forum. But I think that we can learn a lot about the nature of the Divine from the nature of earth and what we know about the universe outside of our own planet. There is an adapting order to all of it. So many tiny factors working together and aiding each other thing. Humans could do well to learn from that IMO.

Well; to quote my grandmother again; she always said: "Being out in nature is being close to God."

She didn't mean it in a pantheistic sense; she would always stop in the middle of a hike; and just "smell the flowers." Her and I always used to marvel at the spring scent of trees, bushes, flowers etc all coming to life, and we would say: "They will never be able to make an air freshener like that." "Only God could make something like that."

I miss those hikes; but they did help me to answer a lot of questions such as what you are asking here.

(more to come)

[Overaged]

Birds have a lack of ego? Have you ever owned a budgie ?

Or should I say, has a budgie ever owned you?

Ha ha...that's funny.

But EC has an interesting point. I had a great hike this afternoon at the bird sanctuary - didn't see one bird, well, I did see one. A very imposing looking creature he was. LOL...(more later)

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

When all of mans words failed, when all the spiritual writing I read failed, I could never let go of the idea of a Divine force in the universe because of nature. How that came to be - is a discussion for the Origins forum. But I think that we can learn a lot about the nature of the Divine from the nature of earth and what we know about the universe outside of our own planet. There is an adapting order to all of it. So many tiny factors working together and aiding each other thing. Humans could do well to learn from that IMO.

Well; to quote my grandmother again; she always said: "Being out in nature is being close to God."

She didn't mean it in a pantheistic sense; she would always stop in the middle of a hike; and just "smell the flowers." Her and I always used to marvel at the spring scent of trees, bushes, flowers etc all coming to life, and we would say: "They will never be able to make an air freshener like that." "Only God could make something like that."

I miss those hikes; but they did help me to answer a lot of questions such as what you are asking here.

(more to come)

I kinda miss your Grandma, I never even knew her.

[Dr. Rich]

I would totally agree that being out in nature (as you put it) is refreshing and many a time while bow hunting for elk and deer I pondered the meaning of life. Never forgot my Indian friend who taught me to bow hunt back in the last 50's, and the deer he killed was beautiful and the first thing he did was thank God for the harvest in his Indian way. Yes, it all was used one way or another and it made be a believer of the Higher Power, God the Creator.

But we must remember that humans have a different spirit than animals as they are the only ones who have a spirit of comunion with God. It wrong to place anything on the pedestal with the order of Humans--as many religions mistakenly do.

[olger]

Quote:

But we must remember that humans have a different spirit than animals as they are the only ones who have a spirit of comunion with God.

[M. T. Cross]

I think he means that only humans have comunion with God.

[Overaged]

Well; to quote my grandmother again; she always said: "Being out in nature is being close to God."

She didn't mean it in a pantheistic sense; she would always stop in the middle of a hike; and just "smell the flowers." Her and I always used to marvel at the spring scent of trees, bushes, flowers etc all coming to life, and we would say: "They will never be able to make an air freshener like that." "Only God could make something like that."

I miss those hikes; but they did help me to answer a lot of questions such as what you are asking here.

(more to come)

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

5. Why should I accept the Christian philosophy over Buddhism, Shinto, Islam, Hindu, Asatru, Neo-Druidry, Helllenism, Kemetisism, or any other religion?

She would have said; "Well, you know "overaged" I think there is a little bit of something true - something good, in almost every religion. I can't picture God as not loving them; just because they are not like me. But for me; well, there is just something so special about Jesus, something so different, and I can't imagine not following Him..."

hey; speaking of hikes, I had a great hike yesterday! Didn't see any birds but did see a red-tailed (and very noisy) squirrel...Actually, we did see one old buzzard - what a scuzz. he didn't even take his drywall clothes off.

Well thats kinda what I say as well. I just call it the Divine rather than God.

Dude, did you run when you saw that critter?

[olger]

I think he means that only humans have comunion with God.

Ach !!

[Overaged]

Ha ha; no. I didn't run but my wife did! I stood my ground and fought tooth and nail...

[Overaged]

Well thats kinda what I say as well. I just call it the Divine rather than God.

As far as answering your question #5 I will address that more in depth asap here. Fun comes first sometimes! LOL

[M. T. Cross]

What? You are saying I am not fun? Well then

[Overaged]

Nah nah nah! I was saying you are fun! I was saying we got too busy having fun to get serious about answering that question #5!

[Dr. Rich]

I think you're very right, the Bible even says as much, but, the risk is that we end up worshipping the creation instead of the creator, as the Bible also says.

BibleOnly, on another thread you and John 317 questioned my sanity regarding what the bible says or not and the moderators must have shut me off from reponding (as they ususally do) in a civil manner. Both of your could not fathom the throught that the bible as we have it today contains words that are not inspired.

While I appreciate your view, in my own exhaustive research on this whole issue I have found MANY different opinions on it from many different sources--to which none of them fit as tight as what Jesus said and preserved by Matthew himself as found in Matt. 14:26 and 17:17-22. Here Jesus said the Holy Spirit would cause the eyewitness disciples to remember exactly what Jesus said and that those of us who have read the words of the eyewitnesses can now understand the real truth, it all fits.

It is clear that most of the disciples and true apostles thought that Jesus was going to come in their life time so writing anything down would have been useless, until they were older and saw other discples had died. It was at that time that Matthew and John wrote down the events as they remembered them thru the help of the Holy Spirit.

The true small group was called "THE WAY" and were absolutly not "Christians". Saul infiltrated this group to weed them out and the best way to do that was to invent a new religion that mixed mithra, gnosticism, pagan, eastern religions and twist Jewish writings which would appease just about everyone who now had a reason NOT to fear God and Keep all of His commandments because this God was full of love and grace. This is why Saul/Paul refused to debate his new invented religion with the true disciples/apostles--ever!

And this is why he ministered and presented his new adulterated gospel to the Gentiles, Greeks and mostly to the Asians who already had prejudice/bias built upon those gnostic eastern 'religions'.

Later, when the true disciples/apostles went to these places and presented the real truth--the gospel of the kingdom of heaven, those in Asia asked for foregivness and turned away from Paul's false teachings.(See Rev. 2:2, Acts 21:27-29 and 2Tim. 1:15-18).

Therefore, both of you are free to choose to belived what ever you want, but remember, so can I. Making fun of my understanding is not ok, as you are making fun of the gospel Jesus came here to teach and preach.

Ask yourself this question: Could I possible be wrong? If you answer no, then you just might me one of those written about in the warning to Laodicea as found in Rev. 3:14-18. This is serious stuff my friends!

[BibleOnly]

This is a lovely theory. But, you proved that it's predicated on word games. Your 'proof' was silly, to be polite. And at the core, if you're right, then God either does not care enough to make sure that what people regard as His book, is accurate, or He's powerless to make it so. In which case, who cares what we believe ? If He can't deliver a message of salvation, how can He save us ?

"This is why Saul/Paul refused to debate his new invented religion with the true disciples/apostles--ever!"

Ridiculous.

Acts records that they disagreed, but not that they never spoke. Peter records that he agreed with Paul, although he regarded his writings as complex and easy for people to argue about. This is not surprising, given that Paul was educated and Peter was not. I imagine writing for uneducated people was hard for Paul, although in our age, it's not true that Paul is hard to understand, because we too are educated and able to follow logical thought.

[M. T. Cross]

Something I find interesting is how avoided these questions have been.

Now I don't say this cause this is my thread and I want attention.

I say this because these are questions that almost any Christian should be able to answer IMO. Especially members of a denomination like the SDA's that believe so strongly in converting others. Also it should easy enough to answer the corresponding questions that arise from the answers given.

I put thse all in one thread because I have asked them all at seperate times in other threads and had them for the most part ignored. Or been given really cliche answers.

I wonder about that.

Is a lack of really giving two hoots?

Write off the pagan non believer?

Is it a lack of knowledge?

Is it - like OA - that people have never heard of some of these other paths? Cause as you see I am happy to explain what I know about them.

Is it that people don't want to answer with their thoughts because they are scared of the flame war that could start from other believers that disagree with their answers?

Or is it just that it is more worth the time to be keyboard warriors and battle out the fine points of your own theology with people that have already converted?

I guess there is the other option of people respecting that my beliefs are different than theirs - but for the most part I have my doubts on that.

[Overaged]

Well; I have finished all of my popping the bubble-wrap therapy for today, so I can answer you a bit now.

I would not be so quick to say we "won't/can't answer your question. I can only speak for myself I guess; but there are some challenges to answering what you ask.

Myself; I have been trying to feel you out a little bit and explore more of where you are coming from; and exactly what you might be looking for.

I am personally, a little puzzled, as to how to answer your question, because you have stated that you don't like it when someone uses any scripture to try and answer them. The reason i am puzzled, is because you don't mind explaining some of the other religions to us, and I am fine with that, but then you seem to be asking us not to use any Bible verses to help explain where we are coming from? Am I waiting for the plane here when I should be waiting for the boat? help me out here...

I have given a few personal experiences here to begin illustrating why I am a Christian, why I think Christianity has something that other religions don't, but my answer is not finished. I am a little confused about your guidelines here.

[M. T. Cross]

No - its not the Bible verses I mind at all. It just drives me nuts when some answers with JUST that. No explanation, none of their own personal thoughts and what it means to them. The whole - this is our holy book, this is what it says, and it must be right because, well, its says it is right. That is not very convincing.

You are here and discussing it OA - and I really appreciate the time you take to do that. You may never totally convince me - but I will better understand. I like the discussion. I like it when people give that personal account, and their personal take on the Bible.

[Woody]

Quote:

No - its not the Bible verses I mind at all. It just drives me nuts when some answers with JUST that. No explanation, none of their own personal thoughts and what it means to them.

I have noticed this some also EC. And I agree with you. It's kinda worthless to quote a Bible Text if you don't include the context and your personal interpretation of what it is saying.

A text can mean one thing to one person and the opposite to another. So a word of your take on a verse is needed for effective communication.

[Overaged]

No - its not the Bible verses I mind at all. It just drives me nuts when some answers with JUST that. No explanation, none of their own personal thoughts and what it means to them. The whole - this is our holy book, this is what it says, and it must be right because, well, its says it is right. That is not very convincing.

You are here and discussing it OA - and I really appreciate the time you take to do that. You may never totally convince me - but I will better understand. I like the discussion. I like it when people give that personal account, and their personal take on the Bible.

OK; good. I am glad I brought it up, and you have cleared that little mystery up nicely for me. Thanks. I appreciate the discussion.

I would say a lot more; but I am at the tail end of a huge drywall job, and for another few days I am just short on time so be patient bro! I'll keep you busy soon as this job is done!!

And BTW; I absolutely have no interest in "convincing" you. None at all. So now we can both relax more with one another, and get into the "meat and potatoes" end of this. (sorry vegetarians)...

[phkrause]

OK OA now your making me hungry. LOL

[Overaged]

OK OA now your making me hungry. LOL

[Overaged]

5. Why should I accept the Christian philosophy over Buddhism, Shinto, Islam, Hindu, Asatru, Neo-Druidry, Helllenism, Kemetisism, or any other religion?

One way I would answer this question is just to say my own personal reason/s.

There are a few scripture verses which I feel help explain my reasons for choosing Christianity, over other religions. My reason would not necessarily have to be your reason, but atleast it gives you a little more insight into the Christian end of things here.

My spiritual journey spans over many years, and many different roads. Even when I was studying witch craft, and certain new age religions; I knew there was some sort of "truth" and "Divinity;" out there. But I just kept stumbling into one road block after another.

I will pick out one non-christian religion to illustrate what I mean. You see; I had severe burns to a large percentage of my body years ago. It took a terrible toll on me in many ways. One therapist dude wanted to do past life regression stuff with me to help me deal better with it all than I was, and this led me to research reincarnation. It really really bothered me that I would be "reincarnated," only to suffer those horrible burns. I could not get around that at all. And I just kept thinking, "Wow, what on earth will I be reincarnated from/into next?

During the 7 years in and out of hospitals for burn treatments, there was a particular nurse who looked after me, mostly on the night shift; and she had some kind of quality to her character that I could actually recognize, from descriptions of Jesus I remembered having read in a Bible once. And so to me; Christianity was more than just a logical choice, it was something I could see in other people, and still see in them.

The Bible verse that has really spoken to me during all of this was Micah 7:8..."even while I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light unto me." At night, in the hospital; the pain was always at it's worst. The silent, faithful presence of that nurse, holding my hand, (and likely praying for me too), is a little light in the dark that I still see today.

I know that this same "light" can be had by others. And so in a nutshell; this summarizes one of my reasons for saying people should choose Christianity over all of the other religions.

[Kountzer]

I follow Christianity because Jesus Christ conquered death and the grave. He brought people back to life. He himself died and arose from the grave 3 days later. None of those other no gods, buddha, mohammed, etc. have anything to say comparable. Eye witnesses lived and worked and ministered with Jesus and wrote down what they saw and experienced. Those writings survived miraculously today as the bible. I don't know of any comparable religious writings that are as critically acclaimed or recognized as valid and truthful as the bible.