joeb Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 I took the following quote from a post on another thread. Quote: God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian. Do you find this to be a Biblical position? If so, what is your Biblical support for such a position. If you do not find it Biblical, give your Biblical support for your position too. Myself, I find the quote to give a disturbing picture of God. Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
BibleOnly Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 I took the following quote from a post on another thread. Quote: God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian. Do you find this to be a Biblical position? If so, what is your Biblical support for such a position. If you do not find it Biblical, give your Biblical support for your position too. Myself, I find the quote to give a disturbing picture of God. I said it. What I meant was this: Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. No matter how good a person you are, it doesn't matter if you're not a Christian. If course, if you're a Christian, you need to show the fruits of the Spirit, but, being a Christian is what divides between saved and unsaved. I did not mean that God does not care if people suffer, or cause suffering, only that the end result, the eternal destination of each soul, depends on only one thing, and that is, if someone accepts God's offer of salvation. That does mean walking in the Spirit, and not just a one off conversion moment, but, it has nothing to do with our own actions in the sense that we're not saved by words, but by the blood of Christ.
Members phkrause Posted December 2, 2011 Members Posted December 2, 2011 I took the following quote from a post on another thread. Quote: God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian. Do you find this to be a Biblical position? If so, what is your Biblical support for such a position. If you do not find it Biblical, give your Biblical support for your position too. Myself, I find the quote to give a disturbing picture of God. I don't believe that's biblical for one moment Joeb. It might be true for those that don't believe in God, would think that he doesn't care. But I would bet that even with those, they know right from wrong. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
BibleOnly Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 In that case, how do you think God will deal differently between Mother Theresa ( let's assume we agree she was not a Christian ) and Hitler ? Assuming that neither availed themselves of the salvation that God offers, how is their end destination different as a result of their works ?
Dr. Rich Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 I took the following quote from a post on another thread. Quote: God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian. Do you find this to be a Biblical position? If so, what is your Biblical support for such a position. If you do not find it Biblical, give your Biblical support for your position too. Myself, I find the quote to give a disturbing picture of God. I agree--but not as most would because even IF you are a Christian, IF you practice a lie and refuse to keep all ten Commandments because it is the covenant (the ONLY ONE) between God and the Citizens who want to be in the Kingdom of Heaven, and follow ONLY the words (testimony) of Jesus Christ (Rev. 12:17), then you will be thrown in the lake of fire. It makes no difference what one calls himself, IF you refuse to obey what Jesus said it takes for salvation (and he never said anything about being saved by grace or faith) as found in Matt. 19 and Rev. 12:17, then I believe what Jesus said that all of them will be thrown in the lake of fire. Remember who it was that invented the man made religion for Christians--it was NOT Jesus Christ!
BibleOnly Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 Yes, Dr Rich, apart from the myopic focus on the 10 commandments above the rest of the Bible, and above what Jesus did for us, I agree with you.
joeb Posted December 2, 2011 Author Posted December 2, 2011 I said it. What I meant was this: Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. No matter how good a person you are, it doesn't matter if you're not a Christian. If course, if you're a Christian, you need to show the fruits of the Spirit, but, being a Christian is what divides between saved and unsaved. I did not mean that God does not care if people suffer, or cause suffering, only that the end result, the eternal destination of each soul, depends on only one thing, and that is, if someone accepts God's offer of salvation. That does mean walking in the Spirit, and not just a one off conversion moment, but, it has nothing to do with our own actions in the sense that we're not saved by words, but by the blood of Christ. I still vind your view to be non-Biblical. God is a God of love. He sends life and blessings to both the evil and wicked (Mt 5:45, John 3:16,17) Jesus died for people still in rebellion against Him.(Romans 5:8) All of the above tells us God loves sinners just as much as He loves His saints. He's a God of mercy, graciousness, goodness and truth(Ex 34:6). Do you really think a person like doesn't care when His created beings are murdered, robbed, beaten, abused, etc...? A person who loves has empathy. It's part and parcel of being loving so God feels for His abused creation. He can put Himself in their shoes. That's why He is going to put an end to sin. In putting an end to sin He's putting an end to the suffering that sin must by its very nature cause. God isn't arbitrary. He's putting an end to sin for a very good reason. Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
BibleOnly Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 I don't disagree, broadly. It doesn't change the fact that the most evil person and the nicest non Christian on earth, are ending up in the same place.
joeb Posted December 2, 2011 Author Posted December 2, 2011 But your view says God doesn't have empathy for His creation. That's what I was disputing. It makes God out to be cold, uncaring, and unloving. As to judging Mother Teresa, well, Jesus said He had sheep in many folds and that they all followed His voice. Who are we to judge another person's heart, especially when that person's life was given in service to others? Yes, I disagree strongly with the theology of Mother Teresa's church, but it seems to me she lived a life based upon love for others, and that is exactly how Christ said His disciples would be recognized. He never once said His disciples would be known by their theology. Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Moderators Kevin H Posted December 2, 2011 Moderators Posted December 2, 2011 In the Old Testament, the conserns about the pagan nations were on actions of basic morality and the feeling that even though they were not God's people, even though they were pagans, that God could still work with them if they would be moral. Amos and Jonah would be turning over in their graves if they were to read this, and I'm sure would have a few choice words for the person who came up with that saying. This comes from a wrong understanding of hell, and seeing salvation of the WORK of saying the proper words about Jesus and giving a history lesson rather than being saved not by necessarly understanding that Jesus saves us, but by the fact that he lived and died for us and his grace for us. At the end of time when we see Jesus in all his glory, we will either find it heaven or hell to be with him. He will welcome us, but some will not be accepting of his welcome. Jim Ayers (formerly of the Kings Herald) when he use to do a tape study for Sabbath Schools in one tape pointed out that before St. Augustine, the church believed that what Jesus did on the cross was so powerful that it saved everyone except for those who actively reject it, and that missionary work was letting people know about it. St. Augustine changed this and got the church to believe that everyone is lost except for those who actively accept Christ.
ClubV12 Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I'm not convinced that only "Christians" or even only "those who worship the living God, the great I am" are the ONLY ones that may qualify for salvation. Nature testifies of God. That secret tribe in the jungle who knows nothing of outside civilization can STILL be tested in the ways of the Lord, though they may not know Him as that. God allowed many nations and peoples to live, thrive and die during the times of the Israelites. We know this because the bible speaks of some nations, countries, tribes whose cup of iniguity was not yet full. To me this indicates that their "probation" had not yet closed, that at least for some, salvation remained an option, even when they didn't know Him as we know Him. But they were aware of "nature", which spoke of Him. The key is two fold: 1. Living up to all the light you have. 2. Having a real choice to decide right from wrong, to choose the right, to pass the "test". You see not everyone actually has a right to choose. Some slaves have been treated so harshly their right to choose was taken away from birth. They were essentially little more than beasts of the field. They have not bee "tested", it would not be safe for such to enter into eternal life at the risk of contaiminating heaven at some future point. DID Mother Theresa live up to all the light she had? I dunno, I won't make that call. It's certainly easier with Hitler! He clearly had a choice to make and made some real bad ones.
monty Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Examples might be the Incas, Aztecs, before the "Christian" Spaniards arrived? I think we can only speculate. What makes a person safe to save? A listening to the "still small voice", being submissive to it, a lack of rebelliousness to your circumstances of life, an active engagement for the betterment of people around you, a kind spirit. These are universal for all of mankind regardless of your assessability to "correct" theology over the ages. Then again, after Christ's return, I guess a person could always choose after the thousand years in heaven and finding all the missing pieces he would rather join the other side. :)
ClubV12 Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 monty, we will ALWAYS have "choice" through out eternity. God knows the future, far far into the future, He knows who is "safe to save". The tests are not so much for each man or for God to be "sure", they are for the countless heavenly sinless beings watching this Great Controversy unfold. So that there will not be the slightest doubt that every person who could, made that choice of his own free will. While our choice forever remains, the final choice will be made here on earth, in this life. We will be fixed on that choice to vindicate God for those 1,000 years and beyond.
BibleOnly Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 But your view says God doesn't have empathy for His creation. That's what I was disputing. It makes God out to be cold, uncaring, and unloving.
BibleOnly Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I'm not convinced that only "Christians" or even only "those who worship the living God, the great I am" are the ONLY ones that may qualify for salvation. Nature testifies of God. That secret tribe in the jungle who knows nothing of outside civilization can STILL be tested in the ways of the Lord, though they may not know Him as that. God allowed many nations and peoples to live, thrive and die during the times of the Israelites. We know this because the bible speaks of some nations, countries, tribes whose cup of iniguity was not yet full. To me this indicates that their "probation" had not yet closed, that at least for some, salvation remained an option, even when they didn't know Him as we know Him. But they were aware of "nature", which spoke of Him. The key is two fold: 1. Living up to all the light you have. 2. Having a real choice to decide right from wrong, to choose the right, to pass the "test". You see not everyone actually has a right to choose. Some slaves have been treated so harshly their right to choose was taken away from birth. They were essentially little more than beasts of the field. They have not bee "tested", it would not be safe for such to enter into eternal life at the risk of contaiminating heaven at some future point. DID Mother Theresa live up to all the light she had? I dunno, I won't make that call. It's certainly easier with Hitler! He clearly had a choice to make and made some real bad ones. The Bible indicates that those who did not hear the Gospel are judged on their works. But, that few will be saved that way. My point, sorry, is that it seems unlikely that MT was saved, but really her soul is between her and God. It's just a useful analogy to point out that if she did not obey the Gospel, then even her great works cannot save her.
BibleOnly Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Examples might be the Incas, Aztecs, before the "Christian" Spaniards arrived? I think we can only speculate. What makes a person safe to save? A listening to the "still small voice", being submissive to it, a lack of rebelliousness to your circumstances of life, an active engagement for the betterment of people around you, a kind spirit. These are universal for all of mankind regardless of your assessability to "correct" theology over the ages. Then again, after Christ's return, I guess a person could always choose after the thousand years in heaven and finding all the missing pieces he would rather join the other side. Not so, a Christian will be changed and know as he is known. There's no way anyone could or would go back from that. It's the nations that the church rules over that will still have a choice.
ClubV12 Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 "She's just an obvious example of someone who did live a good live in the service of others,.." Thats a point worthy of further consideration actually. Being a "good person", selling all you have and giving to the poor, delivering your body to be burned even, while rejecting a knowledge of the Lord, making a choice that is easier to follow your own path than His, isn't "good enough". Lost is lost, a little bit or a whole bunch, there are only two groups. Your in, or your out. People often praise some "great man", great by worldly standards, even great by spiritual standards, somebody that did a LOT of "good work" in his/her life. I'm thankful they did that "good work" too, that perhaps they relieved suffering, brought joy and happiness to the world. But if they rejected Christ, nothing else matters in the big picture. All that "good work" will not be remembered or even brought up come judgment time. BibleOnly, the thousand year starts AFTER the 2nd coming. All decisions will be made before Christ returns. There is no second chance for anybody or any nation. The 1,000 years is a time to review the records, for the Saints to see, understand, confirm and validate the judgment of God upon the wicked.
BibleOnly Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 "BibleOnly, the thousand year starts AFTER the 2nd coming. All decisions will be made before Christ returns." Yes, I know. But, those who lived and died before Christ returns, are judged after the second coming.
ClubV12 Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Yes, I agree, after the 2nd coming. We will have a 1,000 years for all the created beings, humans and angels to review the books and consider the fate of the wicked. After that 1,000 year "review" period, then the wicked are raised, they see the results of the review of their deeds. Every knee shall bow and acknowledge God is correct. And then they will perish, forever...
BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I took the following quote from a post on another thread. Quote: God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian. Do you find this to be a Biblical position? If so, what is your Biblical support for such a position. If you do not find it Biblical, give your Biblical support for your position too. Myself, I find the quote to give a disturbing picture of God. 1. God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 6 --- "not just Christians". 2. God "is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" - 2Peter 3 -- not "just Christians". 3. God freely gave His Son to "be the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 - not "just Christians". 4. Jesus is the "light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY one of mankind" John 1 -- not "just Christians". 5. Jesus said "I will draw ALL of mankind unto Me" John 12:32 - not "just christians". 6. "God so loved the WORLD that He gave" John 3:16 -- not "just Christians". 7. They way that you GET to being a "Christian" is that a lost person is reached by God and accepts the offer of eternal life. Therefore to argue that God does not care about the lost is to ignore the entire process by which we even get someone to be a Christian in the first place. The Calvinist model is that God "Loves the FEW of Matt 7 on the NARROW road - and not the MANY of Matt7 on the wide road to hell". It is often called "limited gospel limited atonement and arbitrary selection" by those of us who look into that idea closely. The SDA doctrines are not Calvinist - not by a long shot. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BibleOnly Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Hi Bob. You're lots of fun I bet if I said the Bible says the earth is round, you'd come back to say it was flat. 1 - yes, of course. The whole world will be judged. And the judgement is, did you accept Christ. I ask again, do you think that Mother Theresa will be saved by works but Hitler will be damned by his ? Or will Christians be saved by the blood of Christ alone ? 2 - 6, yes, of course, Jesus gave His life first, and Gods desire first was for all to be saved. But that doesn't mean every one is saved no matter what they do, it's that God has made a way that everyone COULD be. Or, do you believe that every person on earth is saved, no matter what they do ? If that is so, then my statement is true, but in a different way. God then still does not care what we do, if all these scriptures mean the only possible thing I can think of that would contradict what I said. 7 - You're just playing word games and arguing with a straw man ( how unusual ). God CARES, but in the end, what He cares about is the blood of Christ, not our actions on earth, in terms of who is saved and who is not. Well, you should find a Calvinist to argue with if that's what you want. I didn't say God doesn't love everyone. I said He loves us all the same and has to judge us by the Gospel and not by our works.
Members phkrause Posted December 4, 2011 Members Posted December 4, 2011 those who lived and died before Christ returns, are judged after the second coming. I disagree with this statement. The 1000 years are used to show why those that are not there are not there. So that each family can see for themselves why members of there family were lost. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
doug yowell Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 I took the following quote from a post on another thread. Quote: God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian. Do you find this to be a Biblical position? If so, what is your Biblical support for such a position. If you do not find it Biblical, give your Biblical support for your position too. Myself, I find the quote to give a disturbing picture of God. Me too, it naturally raises the question of why God wouldn't care.Maybe the wording is not as concise as it need be to be perfectly clear as to it's intended meaning??
doug yowell Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Hi Bob. You're lots of fun I bet if I said the Bible says the earth is round, you'd come back to say it was flat. I don't understand the correlating tie in to Bob's post in the proceeding points. Neither do I understand the spirit and nature of the above statement.
ClubV12 Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 phk and Bibleonly are basically correct on the "judgment" during the 1,000 years. We are told WE will "judge" even angels! This will happen during the 1,000 year review process of why some aren't there. Is this a literal "judgment"? I don't think so, I think it is indeed more of a review of Gods judgment and an understanding by the Saints that His judgment was accurate and fair and we agree with it. The issue then hinges on the correct understanding of the word "judgment". Bibleonly says, "God doesn't care if you steal, murder, whatever, if you are not a Christian." At first glance this appears to be disturbing but there is some truth in it. The way I see the statement is in the same way I see the statement, "Let the dead bury their dead." Some folks are lost, thats a sad fact, theres nothing we can do about it, nothing God can do about it. In the final judgment it doesn't matter if they were "good men" or "terrible men", we are ALL sinners! We have ALL fallen short of the glory of God. We ALL deserve death, there are no various "groups" of good wicked, bad wicked, kind of wicked, or mostly saved or completely saved. Your in, or your out, only two groups, thats it. God has ALWAYS limited mankinds ability to carry "sin" to far, in that respect, He DOES care how "much sin" you get into. Sodom comes to mind, there IS a limit and when you reach that limit, He WILL take action to put a stop to it. The flood comes to mind....
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