Sinful flesh

[Hansen]

Scripture says that Jesus was made in the “likeness of sinful flesh.” It is necessary to understand just what sinful flesh is, if we want to understand how Jesus was made in its likeness. Paul, in chapter 7 of Romans gives a rather lengthy discourse on man’s sinful nature. Paul explains that sinful passions work in our bodies to produce death (vs. 5). Paul found himself in a situation where he was unable to do the good he wanted. Instead, he did the very thing he hated (vs15).

He concluded that it was actually indwelling sin which did the things he did not want to do (vss 17, 20). He describes this phenomenon as a law or principle: Evil is present in him when he wants to do good. (vs 21).

As described in Romans, sinful flesh is flesh which has sin dwelling in it; consequent to the indwelling sin, the individual is unable to do the good things he wants to do. Instead, he does the bad things he doesn’t want to do.

Scripture says Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. Likeness does not express exactness. It actually means “similar to”. The word translated as "likeness" is used in the following NT passages:

Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like <3667> to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude <3667> of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness <3667> of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness <3667> of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness <3667> of men:

Re 9:7 And the shapes <3667> of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

There is a word which is used in the NT to describe individuals whose nature is exactly alike. This word is not used with reference to Jesus and humanity.

Ac 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions <3663> with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

Jas 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as <3663> we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

3663, translated as “like passions” is not the same word translated as “likeness” in Romans 8:3. That is number 3667. Jesus was made in the “likeness” of sinful flesh. He was not a man of “like passions” with sinful humanity.

[Gerr]

Although Jesus had flesh that looked like ours, He could not have had one that was exactly like ours. Per Matthew & Luke, he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and was called holy from inception which none of us could claim.

[Q.E.D.]

Thank you.

Reminds me of Windows 7 "Help". . .

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

He did not have like passions is true but he did have our fallen nature as His mother was one of us exactly. Even though His Father was God He did have to overcome the same then as we do and took no power to do so but we can have. Had He done that don't you know Satan would have immediately called foul play. Also realize Satan was sure of being able to overcome Him as He had become a man as we are. He threw far more on Him than any of us will ever have to bear.

Christ in you, His Divine nature you have the same power as Christ had. Christ in you is the Father in you. Yes He had our fallen nature and He had the Divine Nature. Proof that Christ in you is the Father in you is in this verse,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God (The Father) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

We have no excuse whatever that we are not expected to put away our sinning and be overcomers and walk in this fallen old world as He did.

He was born of a woman exactly as we are even though His Father was God. He was one of us in all the ways necessary to work out the way we might be redeemed.

His flesh "was a likeness" but because he didn't ever fall in sin it wasn't "sinfull flesh".

We must never presume we are not to be an overcomer as He was, that is a fatal presuption to eternal life that He came to give to all.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Hansen]

The word translated “passion” in Romans 7 is also found in Galatians 5.:

Ro 7:5 for while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions <3804>, which were aroused by the law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

Ga 5:24 now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions <3804> and desires.

There is a great deal of similarity between Romans 7 and Galatians 5. The conflict between the flesh and spirit, described at length in Romans 7 is summarized in Galatians

5:17 for the flesh sets its desire against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

Note that the sinful passions of Romans 7:5 are expanded upon in Galatians 5.They are explained in the list of the works of the flesh:

19 now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of god.

These are the things to which people of like passions are subject. To have sinful flesh is to be powerless against these things.

This list is similar to what Jesus said in Matthew 15:

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Jesus was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners (Heb. 7:26).

[Dr. Rich]

There is no such thing as sinful flesh. The flesh is just that-flesh. God made this flesh. Who are we to even suggest that God made flesh sinful?

On the other hand, the same one who said that the flesh was evil and sinful was the one who said the spirit is good or righteous. Huh? How can that be? Here is the thing: Neither the flesh nor the spirit is either evil or righteous and you can't take one from the other. Without the flesh you have a dead soul. Without the spirit you also have a dead soul. It is the soul that will either be saved--or not. Not the flesh or spirit. Therefore, the writer who suggested all of this was clearly wrong as was all of those Gnostic believers were with whom he learned all of this.

[Q.E.D.]

There is no such thing as sinful flesh. The flesh is just that-flesh. God made this flesh. Who are we to even suggest that God made flesh sinful?

On the other hand, the same one who said that the flesh was evil and sinful was the one who said the spirit is good or righteous. Huh? How can that be? Here is the thing: Neither the flesh nor the spirit is either evil or righteous and you can't take one from the other. Without the flesh you have a dead soul. Without the spirit you also have a dead soul. It is the soul that will either be saved--or not. Not the flesh or spirit. Therefore, the writer who suggested all of this was clearly wrong as was all of those Gnostic believers were with whom he learned all of this.

Huh? And I always thought we would have bodies like the lovely Jesus. . . Methinks I will file this under "Unsolved Mysteries of the Mind".

"39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."(Luke 24:39)

"It was a 4000 year old aluminum cube with a grove and a hole and no one knew what it was. . ."

Q.E.D.

[Guest]

Although Jesus had flesh that looked like ours, He could not have had one that was exactly like ours.

Don't go all New Theology on me..

Heb 2:17 Therefore in all things he had to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

[Guest]

Even though His Father was God He did have to overcome the same then as we do and took no power to do so but we can have.

Exactly!

[olger]

Exactly 2.0

[Hansen]

The expression "be made like" in Hebrews 2:17 is a general grouping of English words that has a range of meaning. It is wrong to conclude that "made like to" his brethren means that Jesus was exactly like us.

The word translated "made like to" is found in Romans 9:29. There it is translated "resembled" Hebrews 2:17 might just as well been translated "Jesus resmebled his brethren in all things."

The word [<3666>] is found here:

Acts 14:11 when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, "the gods have become <3666> like <3666> men and have come down to us."

Paul, responds ... "men, why are you doing these things? we are also men of the same nature <3663> as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living god, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

So Paul clarifies that he is not a god because his "nature" is just like other men. If Jesus had a nature just like sinful men, he would have found that sin was impossible to resist because the law of sin would have been at work in his life. That's what sinful flesh is. It is a nature which, of itself, is powerless to resist sin.

[Gerr]

[Gerr]

From Strongs:

3666. &#8001;&#956;&#959;&#953;&#972;&#969; homoió&#333;; contracted homoi&#7763;, fut. homoi&#7763;s&#333;, from hómoios (3664), similar. To make like; with the acc. and dat. Aor. pass. homoi&#7763;th&#275;n, to be or become like, with the dat. Generally used only in the pass. with the meaning of having an external form (Acts 14:11; Sept.: Is. 40:18); in conduct, character (Matt. 6:8); in condition, circumstances (Heb. 2:17). Once followed by h&#333;s (5613), as, in a manner similar to (Rom. 9:29 quoted from Is. 1:9). Used in comparison meaning to liken, compare. In the pass., to be likened, to be like (Matt. 7:24, 26; 11:16; 13:24; 18:23; 22:2; 25:1; Mark 4:30; Luke 7:31; 13:18, 20; Sept.: Ps. 102:6; Song 2:17; 7:7).

Deriv.: aphomoió&#333; (871), to make like; homoí&#333;ma (3667), that which resembles, similitude, copy; homoí&#333;sis (3669), the act of making alike, likeness.

Syn.: eík&#333; (1503), to resemble, be like.

Zodhiates, S. (2000). The complete word study dictionary : New Testament (electronic ed.). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

64.4 to be like or similar to something else—‘to be like, to resemble, to be similar to.’

‘the gods resembling men have come down to us’ Ac 14:11; ‘the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field’ Mt ‘being similar to the Son of God’ or ‘resembling the Son of God’ He 7:3.

; ‘for the one who doubts is like a wave on the sea’ Jas 1:6; ‘such a person is like a man who sees his own face in a mirror’ Jas 1:23.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (616–617). New York: United Bible Societies.

Like does not mean identical!!!

[Guest]

The expression "be made like" in Hebrews 2:17 is a general grouping of English words that has a range of meaning. It is wrong to conclude that "made like to" his brethren means that Jesus was exactly like us.

The word translated "made like to" is found in Romans 9:29. There it is translated "resembled" Hebrews 2:17 might just as well been translated "Jesus resmebled his brethren in all things."

But we're not talking about Romans 9:29. In Heb 2:17, If it only looks like it a little bit, but is something different, then why the need for "IN ALL THINGS"? The two don't go together, and there would be no need for that phrase. And it just so happens that the word used for "ALL THINGS" is:

Pas

G3956

Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), (one), + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole.

[Gerr]

Because if you looked at the Lord Jesus in the flesh, there was no way you could have known that He was not a man. So in ALL things He looked like a human being. But He was conceived through the Holy Spirit and called "holy" from the moment of conception. NONE of us could make that claim. While He looked like us, He was not exactly like us in everything.

[Guest]

Not saying He was ONLY a man like me. But you just said He was not a man. And He was a man.

Jesus, considered as a man, was perfect, yet He grew in grace. "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52. {Mar 89.5}

Jesus walked once a man on earth, His divinity clothed with humanity, a suffering, tempted man, beset with Satan's devices. . . {RC 109.5}

[Guest]

Jesus became a man that He might mediate between man and God. He clothed His divinity with humanity, He associated with the human race, that with His long human arm He might encircle humanity, and with His divine arm grasp the throne of Divinity. And this, that He might restore to man the original mind which he lost in Eden through Satan's alluring temptation; that man might realize that it is for his present and eternal good to obey the requirements of God. (Letter 121, 1897). {7BC 926.4}

[Gibs]

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

"infirmities" means our weaknesses, feableness of mind and body. In other words, He knew us. He knew how to succour us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Hansen]

It is true that Jesus resembled us in every way. No disagreement about that.

Hebrews also says Jesus was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners (Heb 7:26). Nobody else like that, No one. In fact, humanity is defiled by the things which come from inside of him, according to Matthew 15:18-20.

Jesus is specifically described as undefiled,i.e, those evil things did not come out of his heart.

The passage in Acts 14 is especially relevant to this discussion. The passage is talking about gods coming down to earth in the likeness of men. Some of the same words are used in Hebrews chapter 2; however, Paul makes the distinctionbetween gods and men by pointing out that he couldn't be a god because he has the "same passions" as other men. That's the distinction Paul makes between "gods" incarnate and sinners. The "gods" don't have the same kind of desires that ordinary men have.

Jesus fasted 40 days and then did battle with Satan. Understanding the feebleness of man, when his listeners were just a couple of days without food, Jesus performed a miracle to feed them. Why? Because Jesus doesn't expect the same from us that he expected from himself.

He doesn't forsake us because we don't walk on water, calm the sea, raise the dead, live a sinless life in sinful flesh, refuse to marry, go weeks without food, etc.

[Gerr]

Not saying He was ONLY a man like me. But you just said He was not a man. And He was a man.

Where did I say He was NOT a man?

Quote:

Jesus, considered as a man, was perfect, yet He grew in grace. "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52. {Mar 89.5}

Jesus walked once a man on earth, His divinity clothed with humanity, a suffering, tempted man, beset with Satan's devices. . . {RC 109.5}

Do you have divinity clothed with humanity?

Consider this quote from EGW:

"Avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God. . . . Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain, a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be."--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, pp. 1128, 1129. {7ABC 448.2}

Since the fall of Adam, every child of his was/is born corrupt. ESV | &#8206;Ge 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

[Gibs]

The fact remains, that since Jesus overcame the devil and all sin which leaves the devil a defeated foe. Satan was soundly beaten as he gave it his very last ounce of strength to beat Jesus and he failed.

Now it is a fact that now Christ dwelling in you Satan is a defeated foe to you too. He is your shield and strong tower.

This was known even before Bethlehem,

Pr 18:10 ¶ The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.

Ps 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Although Jesus had flesh that looked like ours, He could not have had one that was exactly like ours.

So Christ took upon Himself (Deity) our pretend humanity? Then may there's hope for aliens who look human, but are not.

[Gibs]

Jesus certainly came in our flesh as He was born out of Mary, one of us. He never had sinful flesh because He never committed any sin.

However being His Father was God He was not totally as one of us. To reckon Him totally human exactly as we is a mistake. He stood the test though as a true human being.

Here is an excellent read for us to a better understanding by EGW,

"He Stood the Test as a True Human Being.--We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which He was particularly adapted, by His particular divine nature, for He stood before God as man's representative and tempted as man's substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. The work of Christ was to take from the claims of Satan his control of man, and He could do this only in the way that He came--a man, tempted as a man, rendering the obedience of a man. . . .

Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man.

Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with His instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example.

Jesus Showed What Man Could Do.--The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. The Lord now demands that every son and daughter of Adam through faith in Jesus Christ, serve Him in [the] human nature which we now have. {3SM 140.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Scripture says that Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh.

....Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness <3667> of men:

....Jas 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as <3663> we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

I take it to mean that Jesus assumed the same flesh we have except that He did not sin.

Notice the word is used in referring to Christ's humanity. "He was made in the likeness of men." Was Christ merely "similar to men" or was Christ an actual, real man?

Christ was a real man, not merely similar to a man.

James 5: 17 says Elijah was a man subject to "like passions as we are." Does it mean Elijah had similar passions as the rest of us? NO, it means Elijah had the very same passions that all other humans have. Elijah was no different from other humans as far as his passions are concerned. He experienced the same human passions as is common to other human beings.

So, I believe, Christ's human nature was no different from his mother's or from Abraham and David, except that He never sinned.

It's important to realize that the reason Christ didn't sin was not because He was born differently. He resisted temptation and conquered by the Holy Spirit, the same power that God makes available to us.

[Robert]

Here's Jack on Romans:

"For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man...."

The law of God could not free you from the law of sin and death, and he’s already covered that in chapter 7. The flesh is incapable of keeping the law of God because it’s weak. What the law could not do, God did. How did God do it? By sending His own son in a human nature that is like yours and mine.

Now please notice what he condemned. He did not condemn “sins,” your performance or mine. He condemned “SIN,” singular. What is Paul referring to when he uses the phrase “sin in sinful man” (or “sin in the flesh,” as some translations read)? The phrase “sin in the flesh,” found in verse 3, the phrase “the law of sin and death” found in verse 2, the phrase “the law of sin at work within my members” found in Romans 7:23, the phrase “sin living in me” found in Romans 7:17 and 20 are all synonymous terms. Paul is not dealing here with our performance; he is dealing with the source of our problem, the foundation of our problem, which is sin dwelling in me.

Now, those who teach the post-fall position, to which I belong, have a problem. We must also be honest with our position. If Christ took that sinful nature which has sin dwelling in it, and which condemns me, doesn’t that make Christ a sinner in need of a Savior? That’s the argument of the pre-fall people. That’s a valid argument.

Unfortunately, the solution that is offered to them is unacceptable. Even I won’t accept it. They [the post-fall group] say that sinful nature is not sin. “Yes,” they say, “we have an inclination towards sin, we have a bent toward sinning, but it is not sin.”

Folks, you would have a hard time proving it from Romans 7 and from other passages. The Bible does call it sin, so that is not the solution. Sin is not a singular problem, it is a dual problem.

Then what’s the solution? Well, as I read the New Testament, I discovered something, that whenever the New Testament talks about the humanity of Christ, it always uses a qualifying word. In Romans 8:3 the qualifying word is “likeness.” In John 1:14 and Galatians 4:4 the word used is “made” or “to become,” the Greek word “ginomai.” In 2 Corinthians 5:21 you have the word “made” also, “He was made sin.” In Hebrews 2:14 the qualifying word is “partake” or “share”: He shared in our humanity.

In other words, what the New Testament teaches is this: in the incarnation Jesus Christ became, was made, shared, what we are, but what we are did not belong to him by native right. We must never ever teach that Christ HAD a sinful nature. That would be heresy. That would be making Him altogether like us. He ASSUMED our sinful nature. He TOOK upon Himself what belongs to us, not to Him.

Now it is true that if Christ consented to the sinful desires of that nature, if He yielded to that nature even by a thought, He would have become a sinner in need of a redeemer. But as long as He would not allow that nature to control Him or to express itself in Him, He was not a sinner. He was made sin, He was made flesh, but He was not sin. In other words, we must never drag the will of Christ, the mind of Christ into sin. That would be making Him a sinner. Yes, He took our nature, He struggled with our nature, but He conquered that nature and He executed that nature on the cross, and that is what verse 3 is saying. On the cross He took that nature and executed it or He allowed the executioners to execute it so that we may be set free from the law of sin and death.