Sinful flesh

[Woody]

Pretty Deep there Robert.

Is this material from that offshoot group of the 1888 Study Group?

[olger]

Verse please - the one that says "obedience is filthy rags."

Scripture likes obedience:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

"Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask."

"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."

"By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ."

I don't know about you, but we throw filthy rags away in our shop. They ain't no good no more.

Scripture does not recommend throwing obedience away, but rather allowing faith in Jesus and love for Him to lead us to do that which pleases Him. "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous" (1 John 5:3).

Rejoice always,

g

[Gibs]

Woody,You say,

"If overcoming sin is our salvation - you and I are going to Hell. Of course I've been told many times I'm going there. But I have the assurance of scripture that promises me otherwise".

No, No a thousand times NO! Please read,

"Will man take hold of divine power, and with determination and perseverance resist Satan, as Christ has given him example in His conflict with the foe in the wilderness of temptation? God cannot save man against his will from the power of Satan’s artifices. Man must work with his human power, aided by the divine power of Christ, to resist and to conquer at any cost to himself. In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint-heir with Jesus Christ. This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming. Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him. Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming, and then he will be partaker with Christ in His glory.

The Saviour overcame to show man how he may overcome. All the temptations of Satan, Christ met with the Word of God. By trusting in God’s promises, He received power to obey God’s commandments, and the tempter could gain no advantage". {OFC 28.4}

With Christ in you it is not only possible but is an expected must.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Okay - I have no problem with what is stated. It is as I said and we are in agreement as best I can tell.

[Gerr]

The question is, What dead will put on incorruption? Answer, those of the first resurrection. Then who are these? Answer, those who have overcome sinning in this life by the indwelling Saviour, who in us all things are possible. It is those he can be sure sin will not rise up again in sin and rebellion. They have imbedded in their hearts and souls to always be of and for and with our God and Redeemer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

It seems to me that the problem is how you come across in putting out your position. The way you come across is that you deserve salvation BECAUSE you are successful in your obedience?

[Gibs]

Robert,

I read the "read me", the last comment of yours on page 5 and that is a long read but a true one and great info and history. Very good.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Gerry,

I do not deserve anything and I have nothing to boast of. It is He that tells us,

Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It is not of ourselves, it is by His indwelling power, the Divine Nature as He Himself had that is anyones enabling.

Paul states it like this,

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

It isn't a mystery no more.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Hansen]

"Notice the word is used in referring to Christ's humanity. "He was made in the likeness of men." Was Christ merely "similar to men" or was Christ an actual, real man?

Christ was a real man, not merely similar to a man.

James 5: 17 says Elijah was a man subject to "like passions as we are." Does it mean Elijah had similar passions as the rest of us? NO, it means Elijah had the very same passions that all other humans have. Elijah was no different from other humans as far as his passions are concerned. He experienced the same human passions as is common to other human beings." comment by John 3:17

You make a good point regarding the "likeness of men" in Philippians. Note the entire passage:

5 have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, although he existed in the form of god, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9 for this reason also, god highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,

10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is lord, to the glory of god the father.

It is true that Jesus was a likeness of men in most respects; however, as the passage indicates, He was quite different in certain respects. No one else has a name above every other or will experience acknowledgement from every creature, nor will every tongue confess our lordship.

No one can rightfully accept the worship of other men or forgive sins. Paul refused the worship of the people in Acts 14 because he was of "like passions" (Acts 14:14).

Regarding Elijah, the word "like passions" and "likeness" [of men or sinful flesh] are different words. The word translated "like passions" which is really talking about the inward man, is a different word than the word "likeness," which is talking about the outer man. While Jesus did share a likeness of the outer man with us, his inner man was entirely different.

Robert, I appreciate your analysis of the problem in Romans 7. Sinful flesh is just that. It's sinful. People who share that nature have "like passions." Jesus differed from us in that respect. He was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners. He was in the "likeness" of sinful flesh.

[Woody]

Quote:

"And the world took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus. Sinful men, repentant, pardoned, cleansed, and sanctified, were brought into partnership with God through His Son." AA 578

[Guest]

Scripture likes obedience:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

"Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask."

"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."

"By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ."

I don't know about you, but we throw filthy rags away in our shop. They ain't no good no more.

Scripture does not recommend throwing obedience away, but rather allowing faith in Jesus and love for Him to lead us to do that which pleases Him. "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous" (1 John 5:3).

Rejoice always,

g

Ditto

[Hansen]

Gentleman, You may have noticed that the topic of this thread is sinful flesh, more specifically, the sinful flesh which Jesus was made in the likeness of.

Obedience is another topic for another thread. Commandment keeping is another subject as well.

The dynamic works like this: Those who hold that Jesus had a sinful nature, being thwarted by responsible interpretation of the majority of passages in the Bible, turn to Mrs. White. Instead of clarifying the matter, due to her apparently contradictory statements, she contributes to the confusion.

The next step is to change the subject; consequently, the matter is left unresolved and the confusion continues. It has been going goes on like that for a long time.

[rawprawn]

I was amused when I saw this topic, "sinful flesh" and right above it is an add for a singles website with three pictures of girls in bikini tops. lol

[Dr. Rich]

There you go!

[Robert]

Is this material from that offshoot group of the 1888 Study Group?

I don't believe that they are an offshoot.....Enlighten me if you know something I don't.

Rob

[John317]

Quote:

"And the world took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus. Sinful men, repentant, pardoned, cleansed, and sanctified, were brought into partnership with God through His Son." AA 578

Notice that they were cleansed and sanctified.

Did they still have the same sinful flesh? Yes, of course. But they were genuinely repentant for their sins, cleansed, and sanctified.

Sanctified means they were separated from their sins.

It's the only way anyone can be brought into partnership with God.

"You must be holy, for I am holy."

It's one of the main lessons God teaches us through the sanctuary.

[Gibs]

Gentleman, You may have noticed that the topic of this thread is sinful flesh, more specifically, the sinful flesh which Jesus was made in the likeness of.

Obedience is another topic for another thread. Commandment keeping is another subject as well.

The dynamic works like this: Those who hold that Jesus had a sinful nature, being thwarted by responsible interpretation of the majority of passages in the Bible, turn to Mrs. White. Instead of clarifying the matter, due to her apparently contradictory statements, she contributes to the confusion.

The next step is to change the subject; consequently, the matter is left unresolved and the confusion continues. It has been going goes on like that for a long time.

Jesus definitly did not have sinful flesh as he never fell into sin. But he did take our fallen nature and so He had both natures. The fallen one inherited from His mother and His Divine Nature from His Father.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

If he didn't have a fallen nature then He could not have been tempted and that is how he can succour us. To be tempted is not sin until we fall to the temptation EGW states very correctly,

He took upon his sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted.--Medical Ministry, p. 181. {7ABC 450.5}

For each and every one of us we will have "sinful flesh" as we each have fallen in sin and it will be that way until we are raised in the first resurrection when,

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Hansen]

Gibs, Most people would agree that the human nature Jesus bore was one like that of his contemporaries. He was of average height. He did not possess any super capabilities which Adam might have had before the fall into sin. He experienced a range of human emotions. He wept. Did Adam ever weep or experience sadness before the fall? Probably not. Jesus hungered, thirsted, had his own will which was capable of conflicting with the will of God.

One thing quite plain in Hebrews 2 is that Jesus shared in a nature which allowed him to die. Through his death, he would deliver them who, through fear of death, were subject to bondage.

Jesus, in his death, did not see corruption. That's referring to his physical being. There was something about it that differed from every man. Just how Jesus could take upon himself a nature subject to death, die, but see no corruption, is a mystery to me.

When Romans 8:3 is studied in the context of chapter seven, it is clear that the sinful flesh Paul there describes is, in and of itself, sinful. It makes it impossible for those who bear it to resist sin. The very nature of man is defiling. This is embedded so deeply in man that Paul described it as a law: "When I would do good evil is present with me. I am unable to do the good I want." Jesus was never subject to the law of sin and death, even though he was born under the law. He was unique in that respect.

Note Hebrews 2:9:

But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man.

In the context, partaking of flesh and blood is a way of illustrating how he was made lower than the angels. To read much more into it than that is to do violence to the text.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Although Jesus had flesh that looked like ours, He could not have had one that was exactly like ours.

Don't go all New Theology on me..

Heb 2:17 Therefore in all things he had to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The laws of redemption teaches us that we could only be redeemed by someone who is of our family. If Jesus were not like us He would not be able to redeem us