BibleOnly Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 The Holy Spirit will cause us to hate what we used to love, and to love what we once hated. If that is not happening in our life, there is something wrong. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 12, 2011 Moderators Posted December 12, 2011 All good impulses and desires for truth and goodness have their origin in the Holy Spirit. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 I agree. So people can not have salvation, because they don't have the Holy Spirit, and still see God work in their natural life, because they obey the principles of the Bible in other areas. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 12, 2011 Moderators Posted December 12, 2011 I believe the gradual conversion is peer pressure, the conversion of the Holy Spirit, which I experienced, is entire and instant. The Bible speaks of sanctification which takes place instantaneously at the time a person is justified. But it also speaks of sanctification as a process that takes place over the lifetime of the believer as he learns more of Christ and as the Holy Spirit convicts us of sins in our lives that we need to repent of and overcome. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Yes, we need to keep overcoming, in terms of our day to day lives. But things like addictions, or wrong behaviours, those leave instantly. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 12, 2011 Moderators Posted December 12, 2011 I agree. So people can not have salvation, because they don't have the Holy Spirit, and still see God work in their natural life, because they obey the principles of the Bible in other areas. Even those who haven't experienced the second birth do good works because of the working of the Holy Spirit, but their good works aren't an evidence of salvation. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 12, 2011 Moderators Posted December 12, 2011 Yes, we need to keep overcoming, in terms of our day to day lives. But things like addictions, or wrong behaviours, those leave instantly. While I completely agree with your first sentence, I don't believe your last. After my baptism, I struggled for over 30 years with homosexual desires and I fell very frequently. I know of many people who gave up because they expected their addictions and wrong behaviors to leave instantly. http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/165910/12.html God often doesn't take away the desires or the temptations, but if we truly want Him to, He goes with us through the temptations and gives us strength and power to resist them. (He doesn't do this uninvited.) Over time, as we draw closer to Christ and become more aware of our need of Him, the temptations to sin become less and less intense. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Well, that's very brave of you to say. I still think you're talking about peer pressure. I was addicted to alcohol and I had major personality problems because of a dysfunctional childhood. Those things left me instantly, never to come back, when I first spoke in tongues and received the Holy Spirit. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 12, 2011 Moderators Posted December 12, 2011 ...I still think you're talking about peer pressure. I'm talking about the convictons of the Holy Spirit. To do something because of "peer pressure" would be a false motive. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 I am saying that you don't have the Holy Spirit, according to the Bible, and that the degree to which it works for you, over time, is due to having a church as a social group, and peer pressure. That's why my experience is instant conversion and yours is gradual. Of course, experience does not replace scripture, but it can illustrate it. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 12, 2011 Moderators Posted December 12, 2011 ... my experience is instant conversion and yours is gradual. I think you misunderstand biblical "conversion." Conversion is different from growth in Christ, or sanctification. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Well, let me put it another way. When I gave my heart to Jesus, and tried to follow the Bible, I'd stop drinking until something would happen and I'd snap and get drunk. The gradual process never really worked for me. But when I received the Holy Spirit, I knew I'd never drink again, and I never wanted to drink again. Born again means made new, not staying the same and going through gradual changes. That is my experience. Really, this is fruitless, I didn't mean to go down this path, it's really not worth anything if we are just comparing experiences instead of scriptures. My experience proves nothing, except that it's worth noting that I tried the gospel that most churches, including the SDA preach, and it did not deliver me. But, that would prove nothing, if that Gospel was what the Bible says. It is only of value to illustrate that what I say the Bible says, has also been proven true in my life. That's why I keep talking about instant conversion and you talk about gradual change and struggle. We are both talking about our own experiences. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 12, 2011 Moderators Posted December 12, 2011 Then please show if you can that the Bible teaches that once a person is converted to Christ, they never have to struggle against temptation and desire to commit sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 12, 2011 Moderators Posted December 12, 2011 Born again means made new, not staying the same and going through gradual changes. That is my experience. The new birth is but the beginning of our walk with Christ. At the beginning of our walk with Him, we are mere babes, spiritually speaking. We still have a long way to go. 1 John 1:8- 2: 2-- If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [2] He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Then please show if you can that the Bible teaches that once a person is converted to Christ, they never have to struggle against temptation and desire to commit sin. Oh, we can be drawn away by our own lusts and enticed, if we pay attention to them. That's why we need to pray in the Spirit ( tongues ) because it builds us in the faith and keeps us in God's love. But people who are walking in the Spirit, do not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 12, 2011 Moderators Posted December 12, 2011 Give me a Bible study on this topic and show from Scripture that what you've said is a valid teaching of the Bible. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 12, 2011 Posted December 12, 2011 Well, I've given a lot of Bible studies already that show that when someone is born again, they speak in tongues and that every alternative explanation that's been offered, involves ignoring scriptures that contradict it. I don't deny that people can fall back in to sin, but, most of what I said in my post above, was quoting scripture. Quote
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