M. T. Cross Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 This is the kid with a stock pile of weapons and home made bombs getting ready to take out members of the community!! What IF the parents REFUSED to bring such a rebellious youth to the gates of the city for "trial"? In some cases I think the community would FORCE them to do so! The parents were obligated to "obey" just as much as the rebellious youth. Dude!!! We have scapecoats to blame for kids like that!!! Ozzy Osbourne, Marilon Manson............. Its thier fault. The village elders need to go after THEM!! I mean it could never have anything to do with the parents being to wrapped up in their own lives to see that their kids are having problems, or that the parents are shoving stuff down the kids throat so hard that he/she is choking on it, or that some tool at school is verbally and physically destroying every bit of dignity and self esteem that kid has - and no one is doing jack all about it. Maybe in ancient times people did not have the resources to deal with that. We however do not live in ancient times ( well we do but not for another couple thousand years)
Windsor Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 The parents did not make the decision, the Elders of the city, as a group, made the decision While I'm sure the elders could coerce the parents into bringing their son, the way the text is written is that the parents are the one to initiate the act by bringing their son to the elder and explaining their son's behavior. They wouldn't need to explain the behavior to the elders if the elders requested the son's presence. Remember Adventists Online?
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gibs The training and discipling must start when a child and teachable. As with a sprout of a tree, if it is allowed to grow crooked it will remain crooked. Pr 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. I bet my parents would beg to differ In the Hebrew, this says he will not EASILY depart from it. Sociologists agree with this today. The rebellious teenager is largely a myth, and kids largely take on the values of their parents.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: ClubV12 This is the kid with a stock pile of weapons and home made bombs getting ready to take out members of the community!! What IF the parents REFUSED to bring such a rebellious youth to the gates of the city for "trial"? In some cases I think the community would FORCE them to do so! The parents were obligated to "obey" just as much as the rebellious youth. Dude!!! We have scapecoats to blame for kids like that!!! Ozzy Osbourne, Marilon Manson............. Its thier fault. The village elders need to go after THEM!! I mean it could never have anything to do with the parents being to wrapped up in their own lives to see that their kids are having problems, or that the parents are shoving stuff down the kids throat so hard that he/she is choking on it, or that some tool at school is verbally and physically destroying every bit of dignity and self esteem that kid has - and no one is doing jack all about it. Maybe in ancient times people did not have the resources to deal with that. We however do not live in ancient times ( well we do but not for another couple thousand years) Yeah, don't get me started on this one. It's not my fault I was so disengaged from my kid that he felt alone and unsupported and killed himself. It's a record that did that to him. Seriously....
doug yowell Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness as iniquity and idolatry." These two human attributes are viewed and promoted by secular western culture today as virtues not detriments. No wonder so many view God's response to them as cruel and unloving.
Members phkrause Posted December 17, 2011 Members Posted December 17, 2011 Dude!!! We have scapecoats to blame for kids like that!!! Ozzy Osbourne, Marilon Manson............. Its thier fault. The village elders need to go after THEM!! I mean it could never have anything to do with the parents being to wrapped up in their own lives to see that their kids are having problems, or that the parents are shoving stuff down the kids throat so hard that he/she is choking on it, or that some tool at school is verbally and physically destroying every bit of dignity and self esteem that kid has - and no one is doing jack all about it. I do agree, I believe parents that don't get involved with there kids, those that really don't care, have to have a scapegoat. So they blame whomever but themselves. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Yes, or just mutter about 'kids nowadays' and write them off, as if they were any different. I have teenagers, and they are certainly better behaved than I was, which I'd say is a combination of the Holy Spirit and having parents who take an interest.
ClubV12 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Even when we are dealing with a specific instance and a specific person we can't really know WHO to "blame" for some acts. The sins of the father are visited upon the family unto the third and fourth generation, so in some cases perhaps you could "blame" Great Grand Pa. Or society, or a record, or the school, or the parents. In the end, each individual will answer for him/her self. When you rob to support your drug habit, it doesn't matter HOW or WHO put you in "court". Drugs, alcohol, parental upbringing, society, are not an excuse for the "crime". Guilty, or not, THAT is the question. The "Elders" will take under advisement in issuing a sentence. In biblical times and even today, that sentence may demand death, regardless of the circumstances that put you there. The parents may in fact be "persudaded" to bring their rebellious youth to a hearing. By a phone call, a letter, the community or by the police with an arrest warrant. We know in some cases the parents BEG the courts to do SOMETHING with their rebellious youth. BEFORE he kills someone, like the parents themselves. Some cases are so grievous there is no easy solution, it becomes a lifetime problem, a life and death problem. While forgiveness, from the community, from the victims, from God remains a possibility, consequences for your personal actions will always apply. Those consequences may severely limit the options. Each of us will stand before the bar of God at some point and answer for our deeds, there is no question of guilt. We are, there is only one penalty for disobediance, death. But for those who have accepted the gift of salvation there is life eternal. The record of our bad deeds are blotted out, in due time. On THIS earth, at THIS time, they remain on the books of heaven, not yet blotted out, not yet. We will all be judged by the standard of the bible. For those that believe in Ellen White we can gain some insight into understanding the "standard" to which we will be held. But in the end, the ONLY standard that will remain is the bible alone. For those that don't believe the Lord has given us a messenger for this time to help us understand the "standard" as applied in the bible, you have a 1,000 different churches and interpretations to choose from in what the standard means. Good luck with that, your going to need it.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 " The sins of the father are visited upon the family unto the third and fourth generation" In the old testament, yes. "When you rob to support your drug habit, it doesn't matter HOW or WHO put you in "court". Drugs, alcohol, parental upbringing, society, are not an excuse for the "crime"." I agree, but the circumstances and the experiences of the person doing the crime can have an impact on what is an appropriate punishment. " In biblical times and even today, that sentence may demand death" Only in uncivilised societies..... ". For those that believe in Ellen White we can gain some insight into understanding the "standard" to which we will be held." The idea of 'believing in' a human being really troubles me. I've started a thread on it. When Jesus said that many would come and say 'I am Christ', I think He meant they would be regarded as His equal in teaching, not that they would do great miracles and claim themselves to be Him personified. People claim to be Christ by claiming to be the guide to true understanding of His teachings. " But in the end, the ONLY standard that will remain is the bible alone." Agreed " For those that don't believe the Lord has given us a messenger for this time to help us understand the "standard" as applied in the bible, you have a 1,000 different churches and interpretations to choose from in what the standard means. Good luck with that, your going to need it." Some of us believe that God provided the Bible to be a clear message, not to need an interpreter. The fact that many, Ellen White included, get it wrong, is man's fault, not Gods.
ClubV12 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 " In biblical times and even today, that sentence may demand death" Only in uncivilised societies..... America has a death penalty, do you consider America an "uncivilised society"? Even today, some crimes, by "rebbelious youth" are worthy of the death penalty. The FIRST QUESTION a court, the Elders at the gate, will determine is guilty or not quilty. Circumstances are considered in the next phase, "sentencing". What is the sentence for sin when you are standing before the bar of God and you are found guilty? You also "believe" in the counsel of human beings, if not, you wouldn't be here on this forum! I believe Ellen White is a valuable source of information. I don't believe "BibleOnly" is a reliable source of information. So what? I make a choice, you make a choice, we all make a choice on who we listen to for counsel. Good luck with your choice, I have confidence in mine, your still searching.... "...get it wrong, is man's fault, not Gods." You got that right, no one will have any excuse in the end for the interpretation of what it takes to follow God.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 "America has a death penalty, do you consider America an "uncivilised society"?" ROTFL - yes, this is what I was trying to imply, the death penalty is, of itself, uncivilised and certainly anti Christian. "You also "believe" in the counsel of human beings, if not, you wouldn't be here on this forum!" So long as, on matters pertaining to God, the Bible is regarded as the authority, then yes, I believe God can use people to bring His truth to our attention. " I believe Ellen White is a valuable source of information. I don't believe "BibleOnly" is a reliable source of information. So what? I make a choice, you make a choice, we all make a choice on who we listen to for counsel. Good luck with your choice, I have confidence in mine, your still searching...." I hate to be the spelling police, but seriously. Your = belongs to you You're = you are I am not searching at all. I came here searching to understand the SDA, but I know whom I have believed, just because I want to understand someone, doesn't mean I am lost in my own belief. "You got that right, no one will have any excuse in the end for the interpretation of what it takes to follow God." And that based only on the Bible, not on our access to Ellen White or anyone else.
Windsor Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 When Jesus said that many would come and say 'I am Christ', I think He meant they would be regarded as His equal in teaching, not that they would do great miracles and claim themselves to be Him personified. People claim to be Christ by claiming to be the guide to true understanding of His teachings. Are you really unaware how many people even today in modern civilized countries claim to be Jesus personified? The Branch Davidians, some to this very day, according to a CNN article on the anniversary, believe David Koresh was Jesus. Another man by the name of Alan Miller, from Australia, believes he is actually Jesus. As such, he started a property boom in a rural part of Australia because so many people have wanted to live near him. He has two children from a previous marriage that he says ended when he started to remember details of his previous life. Remember Adventists Online?
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 "Are you really unaware how many people even today in modern civilized countries claim to be Jesus personified? The Branch Davidians, some to this very day, according to a CNN article on the anniversary, believe David Koresh was Jesus." Yes, but I think that this, nut jobs who fool a few, is the tip of what Jesus was talking about. " As such, he started a property boom in a rural part of Australia because so many people have wanted to live near him" I doubt that, although I guess farms are by definition big enough that the 'boom' would require a small number of people to bid on a small number of houses. I am aware of him, he's another nut with a small following. But, I don't think that small groups on the fringes are the extent of false religion in the last days.
ClubV12 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 I agree such persons claiming to be Christ are the "tip of the ice berg". As time draws to a close I think we will see this more wide spread. Accompanied in some cases by what appears to be miracles (like speaking in tongues for instance). Culminating in Satan himself making such a claim AND working miracles that, if possible, would fool even the very elect. Well, sadly, I really do see this "miracle" of speaking in tongues, which specifically means, speaking in some kind of language not understood by any man, as a part of the delusions that will come to man in the last days. This is why I do not trust my "feelings" on these matters. I apply biblical principles, reason and logic to come to an understanding of truth, a correct interpretation of scripture.
BibleOnly Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 Well, sadly, I really do see this "miracle" of speaking in tongues, which specifically means, speaking in some kind of language not understood by any man, as a part of the delusions that will come to man in the last days. This is why I do not trust my "feelings" on these matters. I apply biblical principles, reason and logic to come to an understanding of truth, a correct interpretation of scripture. Well, I do the same. I believe Paul when he defines tongues this way, I believe Jesus when He alluded to tongues this way. I only secondarily believe that when God answered and delivered me when I spoke in tongues and not when I believed I could be saved with out it. If the Bible didn't say it, I would not believe it. Your core issues are that your arguments hinge on tongues disappearing before Paul said they would, and on some Christians not having faith, wisdom or discernment. Another point no-one has addressed, despite my asking it often.
ClubV12 Posted December 17, 2011 Posted December 17, 2011 The core issue is how we interpret scripture. You see things you think Paul said or meant, I see the same verse in an entirely different way! Much has been presented on the matter from many different people on this forum and in various threads. You remain convinced of your interpretation of scripture regarding the use and meaning of the word "tongues". I remain adamantly opposed to your interpretation. My interpretation is not influenced or based on feeling or loyalty. It strictly follows the principle of "come let us reason together", that when truth is found, it must be followed, no matter what the cost. No matter how it "feels".
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 "The core issue is how we interpret scripture. You see things you think Paul said or meant, I see the same verse in an entirely different way!" Yes, I was the first to point out that this is especially true of 1 Cor 12-14, which means these are verses that need to be read with care. "My interpretation is not influenced or based on feeling or loyalty. It strictly follows the principle of "come let us reason together", that when truth is found, it must be followed, no matter what the cost. No matter how it "feels"." This is plainly not true. As someone who believes they are saved without tongues, you cannot approach this topic without some sort of vested interest or preconceived idea. As I've said, I did the same and tried for years to explicitly find salvation without tongues. It took a lot for me to be willing to accept salvation on any terms that God might choose and to ask Him for the answer. I am yet to hear a sensible explanation for why the devil answered when I called on God, but God waited for the devil to act before delivering me from the things that were holding me down.
M. T. Cross Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Its stunning how every thread becomes a tongues thread.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Its stunning how every thread becomes a tongues thread. ROTFL - I honestly try to contain that to a couple of threads and to talk about other things, although sometimes the question is just obvious, as in 'God gives proof, but nothing you can see'
ClubV12 Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 I don't reject "tongues", I reject YOUR interpretation of what constitutes tongues. I especially reject the concept that every believer must have YOUR version to find truth or to overcome addictions or a sinful life. I am not looking for some "miracle" to suddenly remove my tendencies toward sin or addiction. I am WORKING out my own salvation with fear and trembling, while recognizing my efforts will never be enough. In the end my only hope is the righteousness of Christ. "Works" follow as a fruit, an inevitable result of understanding the price that was paid for my salvation. A broken heart and sincere repentance for the pain I have caused the Lord. I have cultivated and inherited tendencies toward sin, these will not be miraculously snuffed out in an instant. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime, it takes patience, perserverance, determination, dedication. We know, from the book of Job, the devil can make people sick, then remove the sickness in a moment making it APPEAR as if a miraculous healing has taken place. The devil can remove an ADDICITION in the same way! I do not place my faith in feelings or miracles. The spiritual life IS BASED ON LITTLE THINGS! That is what defines the character, not some "big event". Don't confuse a Godly life with "nice people". Lot's of "nice people" won't be in the kingdom. A Godly life, the FRUIT of the Spirit, is portrayed in every day living. Honesty, no lieing, pure speech, a touch of warmth, helping your neighbor, overcoming addiction by blending your will with His. Not putting your feet up and praying for a miracle, but getting on your feet and doing something to make that miracle happen. And when it does, recognizing the glory belongs only to God. The laws of nature are also the laws of God. He, being no respector of persons, applies the "law" to all. Violtate the laws of nature, pay the price, Christian or not. Christians don't get a "free ride", we don't get a miracle when we choose to ignore His "natural laws", like gravity. The same applies to His spiritual laws, break one, you pay the price, Christian or not. That addicition is violating a natural law, doing something against nature. Do something WITH nature to get rid of it. Diet, exercise, treatment, hard work AND prayer. Not some easy miracle, this is a false promise, a delusion.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 "I don't reject "tongues", I reject YOUR interpretation of what constitutes tongues. I especially reject the concept that every believer must have YOUR version to find truth or to overcome addictions or a sinful life." OK, I guess I need to explain myself again. Many believers overcome addictions, with just the principles of the Bible and the support of peers to help them. I could not, I needed the power of God. If the power of God is there without tongues, then God hid it from me, no matter how I sought Him for it, and revealed it only when I spoke in tongues. "I am not looking for some "miracle" to suddenly remove my tendencies toward sin or addiction. I am WORKING out my own salvation with fear and trembling, while recognizing my efforts will never be enough" You are not free to define what God offers on the basis of your own righteousness. I work out my own salvation by walking in the Spirit, and by keeping in the life that set me free from sin, not by watching and waiting for time to cause my sinful life to slowly change. That is inconsistent with the term 'born again' "I have cultivated and inherited tendencies toward sin, these will not be miraculously snuffed out in an instant. " I can only report that they were for me, and those I know. By what power is sin overcome in this manner, in your view ? "We know, from the book of Job, the devil can make people sick, then remove the sickness in a moment making it APPEAR as if a miraculous healing has taken place." If God allows it. Job was not filled with the Spirit of God, a Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit, God allows satan to defile His temple ? " The devil can remove an ADDICITION in the same way!" Rubbish. Jesus was accused of the same thing and He answered it. The devil cannot attack his own works, a house divided against itself cannot stand. " I do not place my faith in feelings or miracles." I am not sure why you lot keep claiming to be cold and unemotional. I base my faith on the Bible, and the Bible is backed by my experience, not vice versa. That does not mean I follow emotion, although I DO see the Bible talk about the Gospel coming with evidence, which I have received and seen and experienced. "Don't confuse a Godly life with "nice people". Lot's of "nice people" won't be in the kingdom." I agree. But if you take away that you're nice people, what does the SDA have ? I have the gifts of the Spirit, as well as the fruits, but the gifts are the things that define Christianity, because they are the things non Christians cannot have. "A Godly life, the FRUIT of the Spirit, is portrayed in every day living. Honesty, no lieing, pure speech, a touch of warmth, helping your neighbor, overcoming addiction by blending your will with His. Not putting your feet up and praying for a miracle, but getting on your feet and doing something to make that miracle happen. And when it does, recognizing the glory belongs only to God." You must live a very sheltered life to have never met a non Christian who does not have these attributes ( even over coming addictions by trying to over time ).
ClubV12 Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Of course many, if not all, Christians have their failings. We CAN overcome, it WON'T happen overnight. We can be "justified", as was the thief on the cross, in an instant, we can also reject being justified just as quickly. To be "sanctified" is the work of a lifetime as we learn more of Him and become more like Him in every regard. Here is the patience of the Saints, it will take time to become like Him. Those inherited and cultivated tendencies toward "sin" are not miraculously removed in an instant, they remain, perhaps for a lifetime. I won't dismiss a miraculous "cure", but I won't put a lot of faith in such testimony either. For MOST people, it will indeed take "hard work". In harmony with God as it concerns His natural and spiritual laws. True Godliness is not just being a "nice person" and doing all the right things. Lots of folks do that, it's something different, but it is demonstrated in a daily life, a living, breahting connection to Him. And people, non-Christians, see it, sense it, perhaps they can't put their finger on it. But THAT guy (or gal) was "different" than even the nicest person they ever met. Such people are certainly rare, I am NOT one of them. But I hope to be, in time, with sanctification, I CAN be. A worthy goal.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 This is true only if all the people you regard as Christians are examples of how God works, despite being no different to the life changing that can come about through joining AA, or any other self help group that works through mutual support and peer pressure. It's my experience that people are sometimes drawn back to their old way of life, but that in most cases, people who come to the Church with addictions, can expect to be instantly delivered of them. If someone recieved the Spirit and still struggled with an addiction, I would support and not judge them, but a model where everyone just overcomes with time, and is not 'reborn' in any meaningful way, contradicts both the Bible and my experience of God.
ClubV12 Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Consider the Galations and Pauls counsel to them. THEY had the Spirit in a manifest way! They understood the doctrine, they had great light on all things Spiritual, and yet, they failed in a big way. Peter was converted the night he denied Christ three times, and yet, he failed miserably after that. It's the work of a lifetime, not an instant. HERE is the patience of the Saints. When I joined the church, a year or so ago, I used to race cars and had a race car. I spent BIG money on this, it was my whole life, it was all I knew, all my friends, it was everything, it was my god. At some point I realized I would have to give it up. I quit racing, but held onto my car. I cried over the thought I might have to sell it. The struggle was intense, finally, I did sell it. And I've never looked back, I actually detest racing now. I know the inside of it, the ugly side, the wasted lives and money side. I have no longing for it at all. But that didn't happen overnight.... I had to step out in faith, not fully understanding how I could live without it. It was my "drug".
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 "Peter was converted the night he denied Christ three times, and yet, he failed miserably after that." Wrong, Peter was converted in Acts 2. In Acts 11, this is what he calls 'the beginning'. That's why he was able to boldly preach instead of denying the Lord "It's the work of a lifetime, not an instant. HERE is the patience of the Saints." Walking in the Spirit is the work of a lifetime. Overcoming our addictions is not our work, but the manifestation of God's work. This is why it's instant. Paul's letters are all about staying in the salvation we were delivered to, not coming closer to a state of being converted. "But that didn't happen overnight...." Well, that's because it was the working of peer pressure over time. I grew my hair long over the years I was going to other churches, and fought their pressure to cut it. When I was converted, I was told that it's wise to not have anything that could cause anyone outside the church to judge you badly, that my hair was not wrong, but the way older people would see it, was wrong, it was an impediment to my testimony. People who had known me before, were shocked that I went and got it cut the next day. But, this, and your car, are by nature different things to things that are always against the Gospel, like addictions to drugs, etc. These are the things I mean more when I say, the hold of these things is lifted when someone is converted, and not gradually over time.
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