Biblical Thoughts on Disobedient Youth

[ClubV12]

I'll have to go with my favorite authors opinion on the moment of Peters heart felt conversion. Ellen White says it was the realization of what he had done in denying Christ that was the moment of his conversion. Even though he had literally WALKED with Christ for three years prior!

Each of us will have such a moment in our lives. Not some "big event", nobody could see what was happening in Peters heart. It was a simple thing to others, a HUGE event to him only. It's a turning point where we will determine we must follow Christ from a broken heart, not from biblical knowledge. For some, that may take decades, for others perhaps a moment. But for all, it will mean the beginning of a steady, patient march toward the goal of becoming like Him.

There will be major "mile stones" along the path, such as Peter experienced later in his walk.

[BibleOnly]

"I'll have to go with my favorite authors opinion on the moment of Peters heart felt conversion."

OK, up to you. I'll trust Peter himself as to what he regarded as 'the beginning'.

" It's a turning point where we will determine we must follow Christ from a broken heart, not from biblical knowledge. For some, that may take decades, for others perhaps a moment. But for all, it will mean the beginning of a steady, patient march toward the goal of becoming like Him."

I can see how people without the Spirit would struggle to reach such a point. Not being rude, but, I think that makes sense. But, I don't think it worked that way in the bible.

"There will be major "mile stones" along the path, such as Peter experienced later in his walk."

If someone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they are not His, the Bible says. After that, I agree there can be moments that are milestones, for me one was when I first used the gifts of interpretation and prophecy in the church, another was when I started preaching, another, when I was made the leader of a house group. But, none of those things changed me in a way that caused me to obey the bible more, they just were milestones in my walk with Him after being completely and totally converted and 'born again'.

[ClubV12]

'the beginning'.

Of WHAT?

"...they just were milestones in my walk with Him after being completely and totally converted and 'born again'."

Thats all the "beginning" was to Peter, a new chapter in the continuing life of walking with Christ. Not a moment of "conversion", which had already happened.

"But, I don't think it worked that way in the bible."

I think your confusing the day of pentecost and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the following results as being able to happen to anyone at anytime when they are "converted". Not so, the outpouring WILL come again, not yet, wait for it, it will take patience. Might not happen in YOUR life time, but will surely happen again in the future to ALL who follow Him. Wait for it, patiently.

[BibleOnly]

'the beginning'.

Of WHAT?

[ClubV12]

You are basing your entire doctrine on the theology that that outpouring of the Holy Spirit, as in the day of pentecost, is a requisite to being converted and saved.

A very sad lie, I don't know how else to put it. Be STILL and know the Lord.

[BibleOnly]

"You are basing your entire doctrine on the theology that that outpouring of the Holy Spirit, as in the day of pentecost, is a requisite to being converted and saved."

And you base everything you believe on the basis that God requires us to define when He will accept our worship, by the cycles of the sun. That's not really the issue. The issue is, is either of us right, from the bible ?

"A very sad lie, I don't know how else to put it. Be STILL and know the Lord."

Well, I feel the same way about what you believe :-)

I would be more convinced if someone could explain the questions I've put again several times the past few days. But, no-one has even tried.

[ClubV12]

"The issue is, is either of us right, from the bible?"

We don't have to guess.

"Here are they that KEEP the commandments of God."

No room for those who reject the commandments of God, they are left to a strong delusion because they refused to see and obey.

[BibleOnly]

"We don't have to guess"

I agree, not least because God has chosen a sign as the seal on His people.

"Here are they that KEEP the commandments of God."

Which ALWAYS means 'doing what God says' and not just 'keep the 10 commandments'.

If I never commit murder, but do not love my neighbour as myself, I have kept the 10 commandments. Am I saved ? Are Jesus' words optional, so long as we keep the rules given to Moses by God for Israel to follow ?

[ClubV12]

The two commandments, love God, love man, are BASED on the ten. The ten are not deminished, they stand. Keep the "two", keep the "ten", they cannot be separated. God means exactly what He says, "keep" the commandments, "remember" the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Doesn't say, everyday or pick a day, it's the seventh day, it's biblical and binding in the old and the new testament of Jesus.

[BibleOnly]

You avoided my question. If I don't murder, I keep the 10 commandments. To love my brother as myself, is to do MORE than just not kill him. Jesus explained that the 10 commandments were meant to illustrate more than a law, something to obey, but an attitude that should inform our actions without ever looking to stay just within 'the law'. So, I can not murder, without loving my brother. I can just not care about him at all, or even hate him, without breaking the commandment. So, which is it, the commandments, or what Jesus said ?

In the same way, Jesus came to give us rest, and to make us able to be the temple of God. In this context, it's ludicrous to suggest that one day is holier than another, or God would reject the worship of His temple, based on the movements of the sun.

Hbr 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

How is the mixing of the word with faith synonymous with not working on a Saturday ? How does one 'come short' of the Sabbath, except by doing some work on the wrong day ? Where does Paul indicate this is what he means ?

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

When we believe, we enter in to rest. Even if we are converted on a Tuesday.

Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Yes, the concept was foretold in the old testament sabbath

Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Why does he equate the sabbath with 'today' ? Because any day is a good day to enter in to Gods rest, by becoming a Christian. It's certainly at odds with your claim that the rest is always Saturday.

Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Another day ? Not Saturday, or Sunday, but another rest, which we can enter in to at any time and which we live in, when we are converted.

Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

Hbr 4:11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

How does one labour to do no labour on Saturdays ? Doesn't make much sense, does it ?

This is one of the passages that contradicts everything you believe, and yet, I don't think anyone here has attempted to try to explain how you can read this and equate it with Saturday.

[ClubV12]

"So, which is it, the commandments, or what Jesus said?"

There is no difference, He said exactly the same thing in different ways at different times to different people that they might grasp the concept. His laws, natural laws and spiritual laws are unchanging. They always have been, always will be, they will continue to exist long after we are gone. He came not to diminish the law, but to establish it.

[BibleOnly]

"There is no difference"

Of COURSE there is. I can not murder my brother, and not love him. Can't you see that ? The difference is in two things

1 - Jesus told us to do MORE ( love your brother, don't just not harm him, rest in me every day, don't just take a day off work )

2 - Doing it Jesus' way is easier, because instead of an external law, these principles are written on our heart by the Holy Spirit

" He came not to diminish the law, but to establish it."

He came to fulfil it, not establish it. He didn't come to push us harder to obey the law, but to set us free from it.

Isn't this the thread where I quoted and discussed Hebrews at length ? If you can't explain these verses, doesn't that tell you something ?

[ClubV12]

"I can not murder my brother, and not love him."

Thats obvious of course, I'm not sure what the point is, I agree with it entirely.

It doesn't mean the law is done away with, it expounds on the meaning of the law. To covet your neighbors wife makes you as guilty as if you had slept with her physically. That doesn't diminish the law, it explains it, expounds on it, makes a "heart" issue. A heart issue IS what the law is about. David said it best, "Oh how I love thy law." Keeping the law out of fear or worry or it becoming a "work" thing to do, misses the whole point of the law. Which is to love God, love man, from the heart. Here are ten ways to sum it up, the commandments. Note the first four cover our relationship to God. The last six our relationship to man. The first four and the last six, two great commandments. Love God (here's how), love man (here's how), in plain words we can understand, but thats more to it than just the words. It's a matter of the heart. The law is really a definition of the character of God, it is what He is.

David was set free from the law, it wasn't a burden. It's not a burden to me either, it's a blessing. Oh how I love thy law, along with David. I look FORWARD to the Sabbath, a time I put away not only my physical work, but my concerns about my physical work. I don't even like to THINK about my work on the Sabbath. I rest both mentally and physically.

[BibleOnly]

"Thats obvious of course, I'm not sure what the point is, I agree with it entirely."

It means I can keep the 10 commandments and not obey Jesus

"It doesn't mean the law is done away with, it expounds on the meaning of the law."

It expands on it, really. I agree, I've never said it was done away with.

"To covet your neighbors wife makes you as guilty as if you had slept with her physically."

Yes, the commandments say that. Jesus said to even look lustfully was the same, again expanding on the definition.

"David was set free from the law, it wasn't a burden. It's not a burden to me either, it's a blessing. Oh how I love thy law, along with David. I look FORWARD to the Sabbath, a time I put away not only my physical work, but my concerns about my physical work. I don't even like to THINK about my work on the Sabbath. I rest both mentally and physically."

Well, it's a day off, that makes sense, that's not a hard thing to do. And you make the mistake of thinking the entire law is encapsulated in taking a day off work and not killing anyone. So, how do you 'strive to enter in to His rest', in accordance with Hebrews, if it just means not working on Saturday ? Why did Jesus expand on every other aspect of the law, but the Sabbath remained unchanged ? Why did Jesus say He came to give us rest, if we had the only rest He could give ( one day off a week, half of the rest that society gives everyone ) ? How does any of this make sense of Hebrews ?

[ClubV12]

"....the entire law is encapsulated in taking a day off work and not killing anyone."

I'm not sure how you arrived at THAT conclusion.

To me, it means honoring God's law in all things. The ten commandments are the basics, an expanded understanding of what they encompass in their entirety is the goal. The closer I get to Jesus, the more I understand what the ten are really about. I see them in new light, with a deeper appreciation. I see no conflict at all in what Jesus said in the New Testament and what was revealed in the old. Like ALL the prophets He sent before Him and after, Jesus built upon the foundation already laid. He didn't tear it down, He built it up, He honored it as an example to us. That it CAN be done, sin CAN be overcome, the commandments CAN be kept. All of those in the spirit of love.

The Sabbath is only one. Not to murder is only another one. There is more, much more. We will only find that true rest when we follow Him in all regards.

[BibleOnly]

"I'm not sure how you arrived at THAT conclusion. "

I'm sorry, I was paraphrasing...

"The closer I get to Jesus, the more I understand what the ten are really about. I see them in new light, with a deeper appreciation. I see no conflict at all in what Jesus said in the New Testament and what was revealed in the old. "

I don't see why a set of 10 rules is the filter you need to understand Jesus, but I agree, there is no conflict, I've never said there was.

"He didn't tear it down, He built it up, He honored it as an example to us. That it CAN be done, sin CAN be overcome, the commandments CAN be kept. All of those in the spirit of love."

The commandments are, by definition, external laws. Jesus came to write His laws in our hearts, to make the transition from an external law to an internal motivation. This is why the concepts of the 10 are made complete and not done away with. Why we enter rest for our whole lives instead of just a natural day off work, for example.

Here's another passage no SDA is willing to discuss with me:

Gal 4:1 ¶ Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

We've moved from being servants, under law, to being able to be adopted sons. What does this mean, to not be 'under law', if the law still defines our approach to God ?

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

As a side point, this means to call God father in two languages.

Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Gal 4:8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

This is talking about observing different things, not just the Sabbath, but he does not say 'when you should only keep the Sabbath'.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Gal 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I [am]; for I [am] as ye [are]: ye have not injured me at all.

Gal 4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus.

Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if [it had been] possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Gal 4:17 They zealously affect you, [but] not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

Gal 4:18 But [it is] good to be zealously affected always in [a] good [thing], and not only when I am present with you.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Gal 4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Mt Sinai is where the 10 commandments were given. We do not break the 10 commandments, but we are not enslaved by them anymore. I don't see any other thing that a reference to Mt Sinai could mean.

"The Sabbath is only one. Not to murder is only another one. There is more, much more. We will only find that true rest when we follow Him in all regards."

We will only find true rest when we obey the Gospel and then 'strive to enter in to it', that is, seek to walk in the Spirit and live in the rest delivered through salvation. I hope your definition of 'true rest' is not taking Saturdays off work. That is a very limiting definition of what Christ gave us.

[ClubV12]

You will never know perfect rest until you actually do what Jesus did, and said. KEEP His commandments. As long as you ignore the 4th commandment and belittle God's sacred law you will never know perfect peace, only a counterfit of peace.

God's law was so unchangable His Son had to come and die to show that it COULD be kept in all regards. God WILL be vindicated, His law WILL stand for all eternity. Those who fight against it will never find that perfect peace that passes understanding, there will always be a question: What about the Sabbath? Are you sure, or are you guessing? I am sure, no guess work, we have the plain word of God on the matter. Easy interpretation, very clear: "HERE are they that keep the commandments of God." Do you keep the commandments of God? If your not keeping the ten commandments, all of them, you are adding or subtracting from the word. NO PROPHET, NO PERSON, NOT EVEN JESUS did that, ever. They all built on the word, explaining it, writing in your heart, never changing, modifying or doing away with it.

The way that seems right to you is to pick a day, of your own choosing, or pick all the days if you so choose. But there is ONE day set aside by the Lord, it's not our choice to pick a day. We believe, we follow, we worship on His chosen day, the Seventh day. Not the mark of the beast's chosen day, Sunday. I don't believe the lie we worship God everyday, that concept comes from the father of lies. The one who told Eve, "You shall not surely die." And becauase she didn't die immediately she became convinced the lie was truth.

Those who ignore God's commandments will surely die.

[doug yowell]

Perhaps it should be noted that in the OT Sabbath breakers were also to be stoned, but I can't remember if children who spoke in tongues or children who didn't speak in tongues were coonsidered disobedient and were stoned as well. Or did they get stoned before they spoke in tongues?

[M. T. Cross]

Perhaps it should be noted that in the OT Sabbath breakers were also to be stoned, but I can't remember if children who spoke in tongues or children who didn't speak in tongues were coonsidered disobedient and were stoned as well. Or did they get stoned before they spoke in tongues?

Getting stoned can make one speak a whole lot differently I will attest to that.

[BibleOnly]

You will never know perfect rest until you actually do what Jesus did, and said. KEEP His commandments. As long as you ignore the 4th commandment and belittle God's sacred law you will never know perfect peace, only a counterfit of peace.

[BibleOnly]

Perhaps it should be noted that in the OT Sabbath breakers were also to be stoned, but I can't remember if children who spoke in tongues or children who didn't speak in tongues were coonsidered disobedient and were stoned as well. Or did they get stoned before they spoke in tongues?

Doug, I suggest you stop replying off the cuff and read your bible. No-one received the Holy Spirit, and therefore no-one spoke in tongues, before Acts 2.

[Windsor]

" As such, he started a property boom in a rural part of Australia because so many people have wanted to live near him"

I doubt that, although I guess farms are by definition big enough that the 'boom' would require a small number of people to bid on a small number of houses. I am aware of him, he's another nut with a small following. But, I don't think that small groups on the fringes are the extent of false religion in the last days.

Don't take my word for it. I got that phrase from the news website.

"Locals and real estate agents confirmed the group had sparked an unlikely property boom, with estimates they have bought up to 30 blocks and with new properties in high demand.

Followers joined forces in 2009 to buy a $400,000, 240ha property where they hold weekly meetings and plan to build a centre catering for international visitors."

[BibleOnly]

Don't take my word for it. I got that phrase from the news website.

"Locals and real estate agents confirmed the group had sparked an unlikely property boom, with estimates they have bought up to 30 blocks and with new properties in high demand.

Followers joined forces in 2009 to buy a $400,000, 240ha property where they hold weekly meetings and plan to build a centre catering for international visitors."

$400k for 240 hectares is hardly a property boom, unless the land is really, really uninhabitable. My 11 acre farm is worth more than that, and it's not prime land.

Australians know better than to trust the news, it's always trying to beat up a story. All prices in Australia are more than the typical US prices ( although land is obviously priced based on location, it's still typically more here, as is food and most other things ).

[John317]

The training and discipling must start when a child and teachable. As with a sprout of a tree, if it is allowed to grow crooked it will remain crooked.

Pr 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I bet my parents would beg to differ

Your life isn't over, and the text doesn't mean that there won't be any exceptions.

My parents would agree with Proverbs 22: 6 and so would many others.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

The training and discipling must start when a child and teachable. As with a sprout of a tree, if it is allowed to grow crooked it will remain crooked.

Pr 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I bet my parents would beg to differ

Your life isn't over, and the text doesn't mean that there won't be any exceptions.

My parents would agree with Proverbs 22: 6 and so would many others.

The core point is that in the Hebrew it says 'he will not EASILY depart from it. This is, I believe why our society is a mess, now. The hippies of the 60s may have pursued 'free love' and so on, but the truth is, they could not fully throw off their parents values. So, the degrading of social values has taken time to appear, as parents who want to raise their kids as hippies, consciously do not pass on the values they themselves are still influenced by. Which has led to less and less talk about responsibility and more and more talk about 'rights'.

But perhaps I'm just getting old and complaining about today's youth, as my parents did before me :-)