Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 SDAs in keeping the Sabbath are only doing what the Creator Himself did as well as 100% of the prophets, disciples and apostles-- both BEFORE the cross and AFTER the cross. That's the best company to be in. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 SDAs in keeping the Sabbath are only doing what the Creator Himself did as well as 100% of the prophets, disciples and apostles-- both BEFORE the cross and AFTER the cross. That's the best company to be in. If you're looking for rules to blindly obey, then I guess you're right. Paul explicitly said he regarded every day the same and explained in Hebrews how the Sabbath concept had been made complete by resting in the Gospel. But, that is a more spiritual and less rule based approach to the Bible, reading what it says and not just looking for rules and legalism. There is no evidence whatsoever that Paul or any apostle regarded the Sabbath as different to any other day once the church started. Even when Jesus lived, there's no evidence of them especially regarding the Sabbath, it's only mentioned when they were breaking it.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 What's your evidence that either Christ or any of His followers broke the Sabbath or taught others to break it? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 If you're looking for rules to blindly obey, then I guess you're right. Jesus and the apostles and disciples didn't blindly obey rules. Jesus is the One who made the Sabbath and He said He made it for the benefit of mankind. If you are a man, He made the Sabbath to benefit you. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Well, more correctly, they were accused of breaking the sabbath by people who took the same legalistic view of it that the SDA does. Where is your evidence that Paul kept it or instructed others to do the same ? Why are you among the number who refuse to discuss these verses with me ? Hbr 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]. Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest. Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. Hbr 4:11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief I've explained these verses over and over, and no-one ever replies or suggests any way that 'today' means Saturday, or that 'another day' means the same day, or that 'unbelief' equates to doing some chores on a Saturday.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly If you're looking for rules to blindly obey, then I guess you're right. Jesus and the apostles and disciples didn't blindly obey rules. Jesus is the One who made the Sabbath and He said He made it for the benefit of mankind. If you are a man, He made the Sabbath to benefit you. God made the sabbath concept to benefit me, that is correct. That is why man is more important than the sabbath and the sabbath concept is about blessing, not rules forbidding work on a certain day.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 Well, more correctly, they were accused of breaking the sabbath by people who took the same legalistic view of it that the SDA does. But the point is that Christ didn't break the Sabbath. SDAs don't take the view that Christ broke it. Those accusations were based on man's traditions, not on Scripture. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly Well, more correctly, they were accused of breaking the sabbath by people who took the same legalistic view of it that the SDA does. But the point is that Christ didn't break the Sabbath. SDAs don't take the view that Christ broke it. Those accusations were based on man's traditions, not on Scripture. The point is, the accusation made to Jesus is the accusation you make to me.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 God made the sabbath concept to benefit me, that is correct. The Bible doesn't say God made the Sabbath concept. It says He made the Sabbath. But since you believe God made the Sabbath, why don't you obey what He says about it? Originally Posted By: BibleOnly That is why man is more important than the sabbath and the sabbath concept is about blessing, not rules forbidding work on a certain day. The Sabbath is certainly about blessing. Did Jesus say or indicate that His law regarding rest on the Sabbath no longer applies? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Posted December 18, 2011 The point is, the accusation made to Jesus is the accusation you make to me. What is the accusation they made to Christ? What is the accusaton I make to you? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly God made the sabbath concept to benefit me, that is correct. The Bible doesn't say God made the Sabbath concept. It says He made the Sabbath. But since you believe God made the Sabbath, why don't you obey what He says about it?
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: BibleOnly The point is, the accusation made to Jesus is the accusation you make to me. What is the accusation they made to Christ? What is the accusaton I make to you? Failing to keep/obey the Sabbath law by failing to be restrained by a legal concept of not being able to do certain things on that day.
ClubV12 Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 You know, you consistently ACCUSE many people on this forum of "refusing to discuss a verse" with you. Fact is, WE HAVE!!!! You refuse to accept a different view as you as so locked in to your interpretation. So please, just drop that whole "you refuse to discuss it" thing, it's very tiring hearing it. I get it, you feel that way, get over it, let it go and move on. Or,,, consider your position as that of Dr. Rich, many times there is no point in going over the same ground with him over and over. His questions are simply not relevant. Many of YOUR questions fall in the same category, they are no longer relevant. Your fast approaching a position where there is little left to talk about. The Sabbath stands, always has, always will, you don't see it, to bad, it no longer bothers ME! You have been given the evidence and rejected it, moving on... Tongues as you define them are not bibilical, were done here. Fruitless to continue the discussion. You reject the biblical evidence and employ your own special interpretation. Your living in a delusion and there is nothing anybody can do about it. We are NOT all called to be prophets, that is a gross misinterpretation of scripture. The evidence, the verses have been discussed, you reject them. What else can be said? I'm pretty much done, others may wish to continue. I've found on this forum that at some point, with some people, there is simply no reason to continue a discussion or even answer their question. Sometimes, the discussion needs to continue, the answers provided not for YOU, but for others who may be reading the thread. That they can weigh evidence for themselves and make a decisison. If I engage in further dialog with BibleOnly, it is NOT for HIS sake, it is for the sake of others who may be reading the thread. Bear that in mind before you start "accusing people" of ignoring you again, they probably ARE ignoring you! For the most part, I am done. Dr. Rich, Miz3, BibleOnly, shake the dust of my feet and move on, nothing will make a difference with some people.
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 The honest truth is, no-one has EVER answered me on Hebrews. I reject as convoluted and forced the interpretations I was given of 1 Cor 14, and of the scriptures where Paul says not to be judged on Sabbath keeping, but I would not claim no-one has discussed them with me. "Or,,, consider your position as that of Dr. Rich, many times there is no point in going over the same ground with him over and over." If I had not looked at his claims that Jesus and Paul contradict each other, I would not presume to have a basis from which to tell him I've covered that ground and see no reason to cover it further. "Many of YOUR questions fall in the same category, they are no longer relevant. Your fast approaching a position where there is little left to talk about." I hate to be the spelling police, but again, it's 'you're'. I find it hard to read bad English, please humour me on this. I have dropped discussion of those things where I feel I've discussed it and been given a view, even if I disagree. To not do so would be churlish. But where there's verses that contradict you and no-one will discuss them, I feel there's an obvious issue, which comes across as lack of integrity. If the Bible says it, and it seems to contradict you, why won't you explain and discuss it ? Isn't that what a forum like this is for ? "The Sabbath stands, always has, always will, you don't see it, to bad, it no longer bothers ME! You have been given the evidence and rejected it, moving on..." The Sabbath and tongues are the two obvious issues that we individually hold dear enough that they will continue to come up. the difference is, I've answered every verse brought up in opposition to tongues. "Tongues as you define them are not bibilical, were done here." we're = we are were = did in the past, as in we were required to keep a Sabbath day in the old testament. No-one has proven that, in fact no-one has answered me on the question that if 1 Cor 12 says not all speak in tongues, it says not all have faith, or wisdom. "The evidence, the verses have been discussed, you reject them. What else can be said?" An explanation of why not all Christians have faith, perhaps ? Another question I keep asking and get no reply. "Sometimes, the discussion needs to continue, the answers provided not for YOU, but for others who may be reading the thread." I agree - that is why I keep answering even when people obviously refuse to hear. "Bear that in mind before you start "accusing people" of ignoring you again, they probably ARE ignoring you!" I don't mind if people feel they have covered all the ground they can, no-one OWES me a reply, and I do not think I am likely to lift the delusion you are under. That's not really the point. The point, at the core, is that if someone says 'this verse shows that not all Christians speak in tongues', I would always answer, if for no other reason to show my integrity in being able to explain all the verses in the Bible. I've pointed out again two passages where people's replies to me appear to be contradicted by the Bible, a fact that no-one here has even tried to refute. " For the most part, I am done. Dr. Rich, Miz3, BibleOnly, shake the dust of my feet and move on, nothing will make a difference with some people." you are, of course, entitled to do what your conscience tells you is right. I just want to make sure you know that what you've done, is refused to answer my questions from the Bible ( along with everyone else here ).
Windsor Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 There is simply no question he wasn't talking about the 7th day Sabbath for nowhere in the 1st century AD is there a shred of evidence that people were debating which day of the week to keep holy. Don't you think that would have come up at some point in the book of Acts with all his traveling to various cities and establishing the church, there was his perfect opportunity to explain that the Sabbath was actually part of the "overall curse of the law" that Jesus had freed them from. Never did the Jews accuse Paul of Sabbath breaking. Remember Adventists Online?
BibleOnly Posted December 18, 2011 Posted December 18, 2011 Actually, it comes up in Hebrews, as I have shown, and Paul elsewhere talks about not being judged by Sabbath keeping, and that we are free to judge every day the same. Paul DID say that he became 'as a Jew' to the Jews, I have no doubt he 'kept' the sabbath outwardly, so as not to give offence for any reason apart from the Gospel.
doug yowell Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Doug, I suggest you stop replying off the cuff and read your bible. No-one received the Holy Spirit, and therefore no-one spoke in tongues, before Acts 2. I beg to differ.There is a minor incident of speaking in tongues found in Numbers 22:27-30.I read it in the Bible myself.
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