Advent Pioneer Speaks in Tongues

[BibleOnly]

She's speaking from Divine Revelation here. She'd be just another preacher quoting scriptures if she was alluding to the scriptures. But she was presenting a message the Lord had showed her in this instance.

Ah, I see. So her message is not backed up by the Bible, instead she is writing new scripture for us, by special and unique inspiration of God ?

[BibleOnly]

"Fascinating that this was happening, so long ago."

Indeed, don't you just love history!!! This is as much American and world history as it is Adventist history. It seems almost like a foot note that Adventists came out of this tremendous world wide event. AS DID some other groups as well. The early Adventists weren't even Sabbath keepers, that came later. Truth is an ever advancing thing, Jesus wanted to tell His followers more, but they were not ready, they would not be able to understand. Luther, that great reformer, started a fire but he erred on many points. He had what truth he could bear for the time. As did the Millerites, as did the early Adventists, ever marching forward, gathering more precious gems of truth along the way. There is STILL more to come!! Stay tuned, it's going to be an exciting ride all the way to the finish.

I do love history. Just read a book on the fall of the Roman Empire, read some US history before that, reading the history of debt right now.

I do agree that it's normal for a church to come in to greater knowledge of what they regard as truth, as they seek out the scriptures over time.

[ClubV12]

It is a wrong concept to say that Ellen White is "writing scripture", she is explaining details of scripture that could only be known through inspiration. You don't have to believe it, some Adventists don't! It is a mistake to dismiss her work though, at the very least, she was a profound author and terrific bible student. Belief in her as a "prophet" is not a requirement for church membership.

[BibleOnly]

How is she explaining scripture without quoting scripture ? Where does the Bible say anything that she said ?

[ClubV12]

Lysimachus, I'm not sure we can positively conclude that the tongues confirming Bates 6 to 6 concept of the Sabbath was entirely "false". Perhaps for THAT time, for various reasons, Joseph Bates belief in Adventism for one, was needed for where the people were at, at that time.

It IS a troubling account as it concerns "tongues" and we do know that some FIVE YEARS LATER, the BRETHREN concluded that evening to evening was really the correct time frame after all. Ellen White received a CONFIRMING vision of THEIR study on the subject. Which is an interesting thing to note: It was the BRETHREN searching the word and counseling together that established the doctrines of the early Adventist church. When NECESSARY the Lord would give confirmation of their search through Ellen White. It would have been easy for the Lord to simply give her a vision and "poof" all things become clear. Or grant someone "tongues" and "poof" all things would be known. But He didn't work that way, He wanted the Brethren to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES for themselves, to dig, to work, to reason it out as best they could. And when they came to an impasse, the gift of prophecy was supplied to keep them on track. Or, the gift of tongues was supplied, in a measured amount, to confirm and keep them on track.

BibleOnly, perhaps it will help to think of her comments as a "sermon" might be. An edification of principles, a clairyfication of concepts in this case. Her personal account of dealing with false tongues. I'm sure you are aware there ARE at least SOME false tongues by someone, somewhere. In other cases Sister White may expand or explain a specific bible verse, in that case, consider it a "commentary" on the verse. We have many commentaries to choose from, Sister White is yet another one, I highly respect.

[BibleOnly]

Lysimachus, I'm not sure we can positively conclude that the tongues confirming Bates 6 to 6 concept of the Sabbath was entirely "false". Perhaps for THAT time, for various reasons, Joseph Bates belief in Adventism for one, was needed for where the people were at, at that time.

It IS a troubling account as it concerns "tongues" and we do know that some FIVE YEARS LATER, the BRETHREN concluded that evening to evening was really the correct time frame after all. Ellen White received a CONFIRMING vision of THEIR study on the subject. Which is an interesting thing to note: It was the BRETHREN searching the word and counseling together that established the doctrines of the early Adventist church. When NECESSARY the Lord would give confirmation of their search through Ellen White. It would have been easy for the Lord to simply give her a vision and "poof" all things become clear. Or grant someone "tongues" and "poof" all things would be known. But He didn't work that way, He wanted the Brethren to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES for themselves, to dig, to work, to reason it out as best they could. And when they came to an impasse, the gift of prophecy was supplied to keep them on track. Or, the gift of tongues was supplied, in a measured amount, to confirm and keep them on track.

The Bible says that the Spirit brings things to our remembrance. We are always to search the scriptures and to judge prophecy and tongues/interpretation against the Bible. So, there's no way anyone ever speaks in tongues and provides the church with fresh revelation. Any more than God confirms what people believe through a 'prophet', that sort of confirmation is completely backwards. If the Bible says it, who needs someone to 'confirm' it ?

[ClubV12]

"The world will not be converted by the gift of tongues, or by the working of miracles, but by preaching Christ crucified." [TESTIMONIES TO MINISTERS, P. 424.] {NL 50.3}

Here she is simply making her view known, writing to ministers. WHAT is she encouraging them to do? Preach Christ, and Him crucified. Paul took the same approach, sounds like good counsel to me!

Hiram Edson was not SURE whether he should proceed or not, the gift of tongues "confirmed" for him that he was on the right path and should proceed. This was not some big church related issue or doctrine. Just a simple man asking for diving intervention and a sign of what he should do. Which reminds me of the sign Gideon asked for when it came time to know what to do. The same principle the Brethren employed to be SURE they were on the right path. Perhaps the same principle YOU apply when you speak in tongues, all though I must say, I doubt your gift. It does not meet biblical requirements in my opinion.

There is a big difference in CONFIRMING something and DISCOVERING something. The brethren did the work, Ellen White in SOME CASES, confirmed it.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

It appears that this false gift of tongues was manifested even among Sabbath keepers according to Sister White. The fact that tongues was given confirming that Joseph Bates was right in his "6 o'clock to 6 o'clock" conclusion, yet later proven wrong from the Bible, is just one example of the "false manifestation of tongues" Ellen White was talking about.

It's amazing how the Devil interweaves a tiny bit of error with truth. It only happens to those who are not "FULLY" depending on God and His Word for answers, so Satan gets a foot in the door.

It's amazing that you think that satan can answer people who call on God, with physical evidence. And that you regard 'sister white' as an authority above the Bible, so that her writings don't have to quote the Bible to show they are true.

Without Ellen White in the picture, I believe I showed you quite extensively in Private Messaging why I believe this interpretation of scripture to be true.

I'm thankful that Ellen White, the prophet, confirms my research. It is very assuring, and comforting.

And while when you interpret the Bible differently, yet the Spirit of Prophecy contradicts your conclusions and not mine out of those passages (and also not those of many other Evangelicals, such as John MacCarther and others), then I would argue that this means you need to go back to the drawing board and reassess your method of interpreting these passages.

[ClubV12]

"If the Bible says it, who needs someone to 'confirm' it ?"

Well, YOU do!!! You NEED someone to confirm your interpretation of scripture. You see it one way, I see it another way, which one of us is correct? The "Bible says..." only goes as far as the interpretation allows.

I don't know who or what YOU use to confirm your interpretation. I often use who I belive is an inspired source for correct interpretation, Ellen White. Why? Because I have tested her work, applied bibilical principles, considered and weighed the matter carefully and concluded, her work stands. I do believe she is indeed an inspired source. As opposed to say, Joseph Smith of the Mormons. He simply fails the biblical tests for an inspired source, so I reject his work on that basis alone. Not "prejudice", but common sense, reaon, logic, bibllical evidence.

[BibleOnly]

Without Ellen White in the picture, I believe I showed you quite extensively in Private Messaging why I believe this interpretation of scripture to be true.

[BibleOnly]

"If the Bible says it, who needs someone to 'confirm' it ?"

Well, YOU do!!! You NEED someone to confirm your interpretation of scripture. You see it one way, I see it another way, which one of us is correct? The "Bible says..." only goes as far as the interpretation allows.

[BibleOnly]

"The world will not be converted by the gift of tongues, or by the working of miracles, but by preaching Christ crucified." [TESTIMONIES TO MINISTERS, P. 424.] {NL 50.3}

Here she is simply making her view known, writing to ministers. WHAT is she encouraging them to do? Preach Christ, and Him crucified. Paul took the same approach, sounds like good counsel to me!

[ClubV12]

"I'm sorry, but all your interpretation rests on what Ellen said, and not the Bible. 1 Cor 12-14 records Paul indicating there's no difference between his use of tongues, and that in Corinth, and not one bible verse talks about 'fake tongues' or anything of the like."

Well, thats one mans opinion, I have a different one on the interpretation of the verses in question. Ellen White has a different opinion as well, as do many others. Opinion and interpretations are all over the map, a 1,000 different Christian churches have their opinion as well.

What Adventists have is a "more sure word of prophecy" as a guide! Is that cool or what? It gives POWER to the interpretation, no guessing, no confusion, the word is made plain. For those without, well, where there is no vision, the people perish.

Christ, and Him crucified is the contanst recurring theme of Ellen Whites work.

[BibleOnly]

"What Adventists have is a "more sure word of prophecy" as a guide! "

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Interesting. Points of note:

The more sure word of prophecy is not Ellen White. It's the Bible.

No scripture is of private interpretation. That means, no one person can come and tell you what the Bible says from their own ideas. I perceive you'll say that is what I am doing, but it's not, I'm part of a church, same as you, although we've come to different conclusions. but you can't look to one person to verify the interpretation of scripture or for new revelation.

There is really no mention here that prophecy will continue to come through special 'prophets' in our age, any more than Paul in 1 cor 14 suggests that a prophet is different to the sort of prophet who is anyone in the church for 'ye can all prophecy'.

[Q.E.D.]

How is she explaining scripture without quoting scripture? Where does the Bible say anything that she said?

Uhhh. . .How about the quote below? It is not too complicated. The words of Ellen G. White in red below are designated for your convenience.

"But ancient Israel did not fulfill God's purpose. The Lord declared, "I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?" "Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself." "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: and I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For . . . He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry." Jeremiah 2:21; Hosea 10:1; Isaiah 5:3-7."(PK, 19-20)

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

"The world will not be converted by the gift of tongues, or by the working of miracles, but by preaching Christ crucified." [TESTIMONIES TO MINISTERS, P. 424.] {NL 50.3}

OK, that's very interesting. I note there's not one scripture to back up the claims made in this passage. It sounds to me like the author did not have the Holy Spirit, and opposed those who did. Fascinating that this was happening, so long ago.

"2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."(1 Cor 2:2)

There now you have a scripture. You need to get a concordance.

What's good enough for Paul is good enough for me. . .

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

"If the Bible says it, who needs someone to 'confirm' it ?"

Well, YOU do!!! You NEED someone to confirm your interpretation of scripture. You see it one way, I see it another way, which one of us is correct? The "Bible says..." only goes as far as the interpretation allows.

I don't know who or what YOU use to confirm your interpretation. I often use who I belive is an inspired source for correct interpretation, Ellen White. Why? Because I have tested her work, applied bibilical principles, considered and weighed the matter carefully and concluded, her work stands. I do believe she is indeed an inspired source. As opposed to say, Joseph Smith of the Mormons. He simply fails the biblical tests for an inspired source, so I reject his work on that basis alone. Not "prejudice", but common sense, reaon, logic, bibllical evidence.

AMEN!

Paul Harvey tested Ellen White and came to the same conclusion that you did ClubV12.

Q.E.D.

[Lysimachus]

I'm sorry, but all your interpretation rests on what Ellen said, and not the Bible. 1 Cor 12-14 records Paul indicating there's no difference between his use of tongues, and that in Corinth, and not one bible verse talks about 'fake tongues' or anything of the like.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

How is she explaining scripture without quoting scripture? Where does the Bible say anything that she said?

Uhhh. . .How about the quote below? It is not too complicated. The words of Ellen G. White in red below are designated for your convenience.

"But ancient Israel did not fulfill God's purpose. The Lord declared, "I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?" "Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself." "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: and I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For . . . He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry." Jeremiah 2:21; Hosea 10:1; Isaiah 5:3-7."(PK, 19-20)

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I don't doubt that she read the Bible and spoke with sincerity. It would be astonishing if nothing she said was biblical. I meant, in the one comment of hers that was provided on tongues, where does the Bible back any of THAT up ? My point really is that the prophets should speak, and the people should judge ( according to scripture ). We should never say someone 'is a prophet'. Surely you agree that for those who believe it, the fact that EW said something, carries it's own authority ? It shouldn't, not to the point that people quote and collect her sayings. Sure, I know authors I have read and agreed with what they say, but every new thing they give me to read, I will compare to the Bible anew. They never reach a point where I trust them so much that anything they say in the future is assumed to be true without comparison to scripture.

[Lysimachus]

Keep in mind BibleOnly that I did not quote Ellen White's statement on tongues to try and "prove" to you that your version of tongues is wrong. It was not for you, but for evaluation of other Adventists in here. The point is, Arthur White, her grandson, gave an account which included speaking in tongues, and the story is a bit difficult to understand. Ellen White, however, was shown that there were a number of Sabbath keeping Christians that were speaking in this "unknown" tongue, and that it was wrong. So my quoting of her was to offer more to the table to try and understand the issues in their fullest context, and find out whether Ellen White was in contradiction with her grandson Arthur or not. I hope this makes more sense now.

When one understands how the Devil's mind works, it should not be too difficult to comprehend how Satan may even counterfeit tongues by making the utterance provide a revelation that is in harmony with God's plan. But it was not the tongues, as in itself, that confirmed it was God's will, but the Spirit of Prophecy. Then, this way, Satan can cause people to build their confidence in this false tongues, as, "after all", it went according to God's will. So that later, when we least expect it, Satan will use it when we are off our guard, and cause us to go in a wayward path when we are least expecting it. This is why we must be students of the Word, and diligently search the scriptures for our answers.

[BibleOnly]

Keep in mind BibleOnly that I did not quote Ellen White's statement on tongues to try and "prove" to you that your version of tongues is wrong. It was not for you, but for evaluation of other Adventists in here. The point is, Arthur White, her grandson, gave an account which included speaking in tongues, and the story is a bit difficult to understand. Ellen White, however, was shown that there were a number of Sabbath keeping Christians that were speaking in this "unknown" tongue, and that it was wrong. So my quoting of her was to offer more to the table to try and understand the issues in their fullest context, and find out whether Ellen White was in contradiction with her grandson Arthur or not. I hope this makes more sense now.

[Lysimachus]

Keep in mind BibleOnly that I did not quote Ellen White's statement on tongues to try and "prove" to you that your version of tongues is wrong. It was not for you, but for evaluation of other Adventists in here. The point is, Arthur White, her grandson, gave an account which included speaking in tongues, and the story is a bit difficult to understand. Ellen White, however, was shown that there were a number of Sabbath keeping Christians that were speaking in this "unknown" tongue, and that it was wrong. So my quoting of her was to offer more to the table to try and understand the issues in their fullest context, and find out whether Ellen White was in contradiction with her grandson Arthur or not. I hope this makes more sense now.

[BibleOnly]

There are two opinions being derived out of 1 Corinthians 14 from those who do not subscribe to a "heavenly tongues" interpretation out of chapters 12-14, and that is:

1. That Paul is only and always referring to human languages, contrasting the right and wrong use of this gift.

2. That Paul is contrasting the true gift with a counterfeit (gibberish).

[Lysimachus]

There are two opinions being derived out of 1 Corinthians 14 from those who do not subscribe to a "heavenly tongues" interpretation out of chapters 12-14, and that is:

1. That Paul is only and always referring to human languages, contrasting the right and wrong use of this gift.

2. That Paul is contrasting the true gift with a counterfeit (gibberish).

[BibleOnly]

No. Nobody has said they have ceased. Nobody will be converted by them, but they may still yet be used to preach Christ and Him Crucified.