The Last End Of Time!

[jasd]

QR frame:

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Unless I am entirely incorrect in parsing the above text, it states that when “many shall run to and fro” and “knowledge shall be increased” are concomitant one to the other – it is the “time of the end”. (that moment seems to have arrived) Of course, there’s

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

However, the “end” in Matthew speaks not so much to a ‘temporal’ ending, as it does the end of a ‘thing’, “the end of some act or state” (Strong’s G5056 - telos) – as used, for instance in

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end (Strong’s G5056 -- telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

However, there’s then,

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

So, an “angel flying in the midst of heaven ... to preach unto them that dwell on the earth”, eh?

Seems pretty straightforward, yes?—that is, an angel will preach from the “midst of heaven...”. But some say that the angel preaches only to those 144,000 who dwell on the earth of every nation, kindred, tongue, people.

Should the angel “preach” from the midst of heaven to a select few – he/she would probalby speak in a ‘tongue’, yes? One requiring its recipients to take a crash Rosetta course in ‘tongues’.

Then, Matthew 24:14 has Jesus Christ responding to the inquiry of His Disciples; to wit,

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end (Strong’s G4930 – synteleia; a consummate end) of the world (Strong’s G165 – aion; temporal age)?

Hmmm, getting way past the superficial ‘points’ and ‘concepts’ of the matter – clear down to the distillation level...

Oy! Oy! Oy! I think I’ll just go have a cup of Kona blend and put on an easy video...

I suppose that I’ll just have to depend on beliefism ultimately, with no fancy-schmancies...

[miz3]

Miz3,

Here's one without any interpretation for you,

Lu 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Lu 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Lu 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Lu 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Lu 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

All the genetically engineering today is maybe even further than it was in the days of Noah but I don't know but what they had actually become more advanced than today is one of the things to see we are right there. The things they are into on this order with animals and human beings and of course plants.

It is nothing but distruction, none of this GMO food is good for anyone, it is found to interfere with the DNA and to destroy the gut flora and soybeans is the worst and wheat corn oats sugar beets and the list is enormous.

We have many signs that no other generation has ever had.

The Jubilee calendar puts us into the first part of the year 2017 for the termination of the 6,000 years if you like math that one cannot be denied.

2Pe 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

It won't continue much longer as time is about run out.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

You are putting your human interpretation on what the Bible is saying.

The Bible does not say that the people of Noah's day were involved in "genetic engineering" and that is why God destroyed them.

The Bible says that they thought and did evil continually. Since Noah came out of the ark humans have continued to think and do evil continually. Nothing has changed.

Second "calendars" are very much in dispute as to their accuracy.

Third there have always been "scoffers" this is also nothing new.

Fourth every succeeding generation has also said that they have "signs" that no other generation has ever had. Again, this is also nothing new.

I still have yet to see how today is actually different than what others have said and are in the past. In the mid-eighteen fifties they said all of the same things you have cited above.

The actual FACT is no one really knows for sure that we are in the "last days". We might like to think we are but we don't actually know and we don't have any "real/hard" evidence that we are in the "last days".

[miz3]

Quote:

How do we actually KNOW we are in the time of the end?

The REAL question is - WHY does it matter to anyone.

I sure don't care.

We have our work to do for God. The work must be done now no matter when He chooses to come. When His coming is - simply does not matter and should not matter to Christians. We must be ready NOW. Don't look to the skies as an excuse to delay the work. Do it NOW.

Now that I agree with. Whether God comes or not is not the point. The Bible clearly states we are to be READY whether God comes now or way into the future.

[miz3]

If the Bible says no one but the Father knows the hour of his sons return is it not a little disrespectful to try and figure it out? Kinda like calling your God a liar. When a non Christian does that we are called all sorts of horrible things.

Good point.

[Gibs]

Just as in the days of Noah, scoffers!

Pe 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Mt 16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

Mt 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

Mt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Miz3, I don't know if you take any stock in EGW but she brought out about what they were doing before the flood and I'm not sure I know how to spell the word she used but it is something like, amalgamation. Here's one I found,

"But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. God purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful, long-lived race that had corrupted their ways before him. He would not suffer them to live out the days of their natural life, which would be hundreds of years. It was only a few generations back when Adam had access to that tree which was to prolong life. After his disobedience he was not suffered to eat of the tree of life and perpetuate a life of sin. In order for man to possess an endless life he must continue to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Deprived of that tree, his life would gradually wear out." {1SP 69.1}

Anyway it's time to quit sleeping and wake up. We understand as SDA's that the time of the end began in our year 1844 so we have had more time of preaching it than Noah did and I rather come to the thought we are very close now. Hmmmm, how many believed Noah?, not much different today, it says, as in the days of Noe.

Our Lord says,

Mr 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Mr 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

Mr 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Get them lamps filled with oil and keep them full!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Just as in the days of Noah, scoffers!

Pe 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Mt 16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

Mt 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

Mt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Miz3, I don't know if you take any stock in EGW but she brought out about what they were doing before the flood and I'm not sure I know how to spell the word she used but it is something like, amalgamation. Here's one I found,

"But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. God purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful, long-lived race that had corrupted their ways before him. He would not suffer them to live out the days of their natural life, which would be hundreds of years. It was only a few generations back when Adam had access to that tree which was to prolong life. After his disobedience he was not suffered to eat of the tree of life and perpetuate a life of sin. In order for man to possess an endless life he must continue to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Deprived of that tree, his life would gradually wear out." {1SP 69.1}

Anyway it's time to quit sleeping and wake up. We understand as SDA's that the time of the end began in our year 1844 so we have had more time of preaching it than Noah did and I rather come to the thought we are very close now. Hmmmm, how many believed Noah?, not much different today, it says, as in the days of Noe.

Our Lord says,

Mr 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Mr 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

Mr 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Get them lamps filled with oil and keep them full!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1. I am not "scoffing" and saying there is no Second Coming.

I am saying however that we actually do not know when and we do not even know for sure that it is close in our day.

The texts you cited do not say that the Second Coming is near at hand early in the 21st Century.

1844 did not start the time of the end. That date is also not Biblical.

2. There will be a Second Coming but no one knows when. The texts you cited above say only that we are to be ready at all times because we do not know when the Master will come.

Thus, it is not Biblical to say that His Coming is just around the corner because we actually do not know.

3. Neither you nor anyone else has been able to give me Biblical evidence that demonstrates that our day is near the Second Coming. It might be but also might not be.

What I have gotten from some is exaggerated data about 1844 and what actually happened at that time as if it was world wide miracle event which it clearly was not.

Thus, 1844 does not demonstrate that the Second Coming is near.

4. As to Ellen White, she is entitled to her opinion on the issue. Whether before the flood they knew "genetic engineering" or not we do not know.

Thus, to quote her is not Biblical nor is Ellen White Biblical Evidence.

[Gibs]

Miz3,

Bless you and I know the latter rain is falling now as I know a few I hear are on "fire" of His Spirit. Just fill with His "Oil"

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Since Jesus Christ ascended to Heaven people have been looking and expecting Him to come in their day.

What makes you think this time is any different? Many in the last 150-200 years have thought also their time was different and God still did not come in their day and time either.

So again, I ask, what makes our time, right now, different from any of these other times?

I have asked this question before and no one can tell me how today is different from even the 1850's, or the 1900's, or the 1930's, or the 1950's, or ......

It seems you get vague musings and signs that no longer apply, and signs that are just duplicates of things past.

So still yet again, I ask, How is today different so that we actually know for sure that this is the end and life will not go on for another 50years or more...........?

The answer to your question is found here: http://web.me.com/spiritoftruth/STM/Welcome.html

Problem is, only the bondservants of Jesus Christ living in the last generation will understand as they have been given special insight or food from the ONE found in Matt. 24:45. Rev. 1:1 and Dan. 12:3,10)

Remember, the coming like a thief event is before the time of trouble. The coming in the clouds is at the very end.

[Gibs]

Miz3,

And all, here is some simple math that to many won't prove anything but will get ya to thinking.

http://www.itsaboutthattime.net/Calendar_Synopsis.htm

We gotta know the first year of earth was a Jubilee year as it defineitly was a new beginning. A Jubilee year is always a new beginning for something.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Where is the rubber room?

[Gibs]

Miz3,

Aw quit banging you head. Ha Ha.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

Just as in the days of Noah, scoffers!...

To be scoffed at does not automatically validate the one scoffed at as being that which was meant by those passages. One has to have some credibility apart from the scoffing.

To say something ridiculous resulting in scoffing and claiming it is confirmation that the message was what was referenced in those passages may just be nothing more than a circular self-fulfilling prophecy. In that case it mocks the message indicated by the Scripture.

[Gibs]

Tom,

"The proof will be in the pudding." Time I'm sure will soon tell and you may be agreeing with me before the year 2012 is out. Things are braking down very fast now.

Most prophetic things given to any prophet were in the "now." But these signs she speaks of here are we not there? EGW speaks,

" The days in which we live are solemn and important. The Spirit of God is gradually but surely being withdrawn from the earth. Plagues and judgments are already falling upon the despisers of the grace of God. The calamities by land and sea, the unsettled state of society, the alarms of war, are portentous. They forecast approaching events of the greatest magnitude. The agencies of evil are combining their forces, and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 11. {ChS 52.2}

The time is at hand when there will be sorrow in the world that no human balm can heal. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn. Disasters by sea and by land follow one another in quick succession. How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man; but in them all, God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger."--Prophets and Kings, p. 277.

"God will move upon men in humble positions to declare the message of present truth. Many such will be seen hastening hither and thither, constrained by the Spirit of God to give the light to those in darkness. The truth is as a fire in their bones, filling them with a burning desire to enlighten those who sit in darkness. Many, even among the uneducated, will proclaim the word of the Lord. Children will be impelled by the Holy Spirit to go forth to declare the message of heaven. The Spirit will be poured out upon those who yield to His promptings. Casting off man's binding rules and cautious movements, they will join the army of the Lord."-{7T 26.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

Tom,

"The proof will be in the pudding." Time I'm sure will soon tell and you may be agreeing with me before the year 2012 is out. Things are braking down very fast now.

Most prophetic things given to any prophet were in the "now." But these signs she speaks of here are we not there? EGW speaks,

" The days in which we live are solemn and important. The Spirit of God is gradually but surely being withdrawn from the earth. Plagues and judgments are already falling upon the despisers of the grace of God. The calamities by land and sea, the unsettled state of society, the alarms of war, are portentous. They forecast approaching events of the greatest magnitude. The agencies of evil are combining their forces, and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 11. {ChS 52.2}

The time is at hand when there will be sorrow in the world that no human balm can heal. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn. Disasters by sea and by land follow one another in quick succession. How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man; but in them all, God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger."--Prophets and Kings, p. 277.

"God will move upon men in humble positions to declare the message of present truth. Many such will be seen hastening hither and thither, constrained by the Spirit of God to give the light to those in darkness. The truth is as a fire in their bones, filling them with a burning desire to enlighten those who sit in darkness. Many, even among the uneducated, will proclaim the word of the Lord. Children will be impelled by the Holy Spirit to go forth to declare the message of heaven. The Spirit will be poured out upon those who yield to His promptings. Casting off man's binding rules and cautious movements, they will join the army of the Lord."-{7T 26.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Adventists don't believe in Mayan prophecy. Unless you believe God told some heathens when the world would end, 2012 will be a year like any other. The gospel still must go into all the world. I do believe that time is soon, real soon, just not 2012.

[Gibs]

Windsor,

I know nothing of the mayan calendar and 2012 is the year that TPTB are going to begin the crunch down of the world and the USA is to be brought down to the level of China and lower. They have a goal to bring the population of the earth down to less than 1 billion. Many things are now in "play" or maybe better in the works of the "devils" to do just that. Satan the destroyer is ahead of it of course.

Extremely hard times are here for the sleeping sheeple and the super elite rich are to be super rich and are right now. It has been reported that Lord Jacob Rothschild is worth over 420 trillion dollars. Enough to bail out the whole world.

There is 10 of these super rich dynasties, families that meet once a month usually in a Penthouse in Canada to decide the fate of America and the world. It is the head man of each of these that is a "king" and when he expires one he has picked in advance of his is his successor.

All who are not awake now will be before the next couple years are out. Some the in the year 2012 of the sheeple will not be hurt much but very, very many will be.

These dynasties have a man they leak out just what they want to come out, do you know Lindsey Williams? He is their man, he is a Pastor they have chosen to let out what they want out. Is the information reliable? Yes it has been for quite a few years now that Lindsey has been leaking it out.

The whole world is now being ruled by these 10 now and for me I call them Satan's men. They puppet our congress and reps. and president and they tow the line and not the peoples. You think the people have a voice, you got another think coming.

I know this is not convincing to many or understood but by few and to those who don't, all I can say is, sit back and watch it play out.

Make your calling and election sure today while it is still day.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Windsor,

I know nothing of the mayan calendar and 2012 is the year that TPTB are going to begin the crunch down of the world and the USA is to be brought down to the level of China and lower. They have a goal to bring the population of the earth down to less than 1 billion. Many things are now in "play" or maybe better in the works of the "devils" to do just that. Satan the destroyer is ahead of it of course.

Extremely hard times are here for the sleeping sheeple and the super elite rich are to be super rich and are right now. It has been reported that Lord Jacob Rothschild is worth over 420 trillion dollars. Enough to bail out the whole world.

There is 10 of these super rich dynasties, families that meet once a month usually in a Penthouse in Canada to decide the fate of America and the world. It is the head man of each of these that is a "king" and when he expires one he has picked in advance of his is his successor.

All who are not awake now will be before the next couple years are out. Some the in the year 2012 of the sheeple will not be hurt much but very, very many will be.

These dynasties have a man they leak out just what they want to come out, do you know Lindsey Williams? He is their man, he is a Pastor they have chosen to let out what they want out. Is the information reliable? Yes it has been for quite a few years now that Lindsey has been leaking it out.

The whole world is now being ruled by these 10 now and for me I call them Satan's men. They puppet our congress and reps. and president and they tow the line and not the peoples. You think the people have a voice, you got another think coming.

I know this is not convincing to many or understood but by few and to those who don't, all I can say is, sit back and watch it play out.

Make your calling and election sure today while it is still day.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Does "conspiracy theory" come to mind?

[Windsor]

Extremely hard times are here for the sleeping sheeple and the super elite rich are to be super rich and are right now. It has been reported that Lord Jacob Rothschild is worth over 420 trillion dollars. Enough to bail out the whole world.

The GDP of the whole world is 63 trillion dollars. If Jacob is worth 420 trillion dollars then he has invented magic and we all really should be afraid.

[Dr. Rich]

If the Bible says no one but the Father knows the hour of his sons return is it not a little disrespectful to try and figure it out? Kinda like calling your God a liar. When a non Christian does that we are called all sorts of horrible things.

Jesus said that no one, not even Him or the Angels KNEW the day or hour, but ONLY the Father in heaven would be the one to reveal it. What this shows is that Jesus was NOT the Father but that the Father would (in the future) reveal it to His Son.

Now read Rev. 1:1 and you will NOW see that the Father HAS revealed this to His Son and better yet, the Son has shared this with His Bondservants ONLY living in the last generation (because it does no one any good to know if they are dead). He did not share it with everyone as Revelation is very specific as to who it was given to and for them ONLY to understand. Dan. 12:3 and 10 confirm this which means that IF you don't understand you just may be one of the wicked.

Yes, there was a reason God did not make his months (new moons) go evenly into a year-but if you don't care to know about this, then that is your choice. But perhaps some of you might want to know and be part of the 144,000 who will be scoffed at and made fun of by the whole world!

[Gibs]

Windsor,

You state, "The GDP of the whole world is 63 trillion dollars. If Jacob is worth 420 trillion dollars then he has invented magic and we all really should be afraid."

That probably is true but these super rich for many years have been at the robbing of the peoples or the GDP would be much larger than that. See what it has done to the USA and just recently to Libya and soon to Iran. Any country or peoples that really begin to prosper that are not under the robbing system of banking and industry are soon brought down.

It isn't magic, it's robbery and worse, lots of murder with it. War is the game of these super rich ones.

Yes the time is truly unbelieveable and it truly is as in the days of Noe.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Windsor,

I know nothing of the mayan calendar and 2012 is the year that TPTB are going to begin the crunch down of the world and the USA is to be brought down to the level of China and lower. They have a goal to bring the population of the earth down to less than 1 billion. Many things are now in "play" or maybe better in the works of the "devils" to do just that. Satan the destroyer is ahead of it of course.

Extremely hard times are here for the sleeping sheeple and the super elite rich are to be super rich and are right now. It has been reported that Lord Jacob Rothschild is worth over 420 trillion dollars. Enough to bail out the whole world.

There is 10 of these super rich dynasties, families that meet once a month usually in a Penthouse in Canada to decide the fate of America and the world. It is the head man of each of these that is a "king" and when he expires one he has picked in advance of his is his successor.

All who are not awake now will be before the next couple years are out. Some the in the year 2012 of the sheeple will not be hurt much but very, very many will be.

These dynasties have a man they leak out just what they want to come out, do you know Lindsey Williams? He is their man, he is a Pastor they have chosen to let out what they want out. Is the information reliable? Yes it has been for quite a few years now that Lindsey has been leaking it out.

The whole world is now being ruled by these 10 now and for me I call them Satan's men. They puppet our congress and reps. and president and they tow the line and not the peoples. You think the people have a voice, you got another think coming.

I know this is not convincing to many or understood but by few and to those who don't, all I can say is, sit back and watch it play out.

Make your calling and election sure today while it is still day.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I am a little slow on abbreviated stuff - for instsnce it did not clue in that RCC was the Roman Catholic Church...........

So can someone tell me what TPTB stands for?

Ah looked it up The Powers That Be.

Much to think about there.

Other than that - excellent attempt at trying to be Dan Brown Gibs! Keep up the efforts.

[Gibs]

TPTB is The Powers That Be. These puppet all the world leaders and banking and industry and wars.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

TPTB is The Powers That Be. These puppet all the world leaders and banking and industry and wars.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Thank you - just got up and no coffee yet - brain a little unfunctional.

[Dr. Rich]

Which is the truth: Romans 13:1-4 or John 12:31 and John 14:30?

[Guest]

Which is the truth: Romans 13:1-4 or John 12:31 and John 14:30?

uhhhh....they're both true. And I don't even have to read em to know that already.

It's hard to debate somebody who doesn't even believe in the Bible anymore. It would be kinda like beating my head against the wall.

Correction: It has been kinda like beating my head against the wall.

_______________________________________________

No more blood on my wall.

[phkrause]

Which is the truth: Romans 13:1-4 or John 12:31 and John 14:30?

Well lets see what they say:

Romans 13:1 Everyone is to obey the governing authorities. For there is no authority that is not from God, and the existing authorities have been placed where they are by God. 2 Therefore, whoever resists the authorities is resisting what God has instituted; and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are no terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you like to be unafraid of the person in authority? Then simply do what is good, and you will win his approval; 4 for he is God's servant, there for your benefit. But if you do what is wrong, be afraid! Because it is not for nothing that he holds the power of the sword; for he is God's servant, there as an avenger to punish wrongdoers.

John 12:31 Now is the time for this world to be judged, now the ruler of this world will be expelled.

John 14:30 "I won't be talking with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me;

Don't you obey the authorities today? Paul is not telling us to go against God here, he's just saying to obey the Government that's in charge, just like you and I are doing today. Examples: Don't drink and drive, stop at red lights, pay your taxes, etc. I'm guessing that you comply with these laws?? He's not saying that if the government requires you to not worship on the Sabbath that you should comply or that you should not worship God! As RLH says there is no contradiction here at all. Your biases are showing. That's pretty sad Dr. Rich, very sad.

And by the way Paul was persecuted and died for his Faith in God as well as the rest of God's apostles and disciples.