The Real Interpretation Of Rev. Chap. 13:

[Gibs]

Notice! , Don't rush through this study, it is new to you, but many now see this, go slow and think.

The problem of not taking into account of the crowns changing from the heads to the horns has a big impact on knowing the interpretation of Rev. Chap. 13:. This point has never been brought out. When did it happen in time? It happened when the pope was taken captive and killed. It put an end to the martyrdom of the dark ages. Then Satan sets up a new order of rule changing the king power from the heads to the horns.

Then in Rev. 13:1 we see the crowns on the horns as this new image beast that is rising up out of the sea of peoples. Previous to this date it was Satan’s old world order and now starts a New World Order. N.W.O. That date was 1798. Satan the great red dragon in chap. 12 ruled the earth through the religious systems, the heads, they had the crowns. Rev 12:3 Five of those religious systems were proven false when Christ died on the cross and Him resurrected proving this was the true religion, it had a Saviour. So then after around 300 years it fell in apostasy and became the Papacy. The Papacy became the one that John saw as “one is” in his day, and became the sixth head.

17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (Chapter 17: is the explanation chapter)

So this makes the papacy the sixth head of the beast system. The one that “is not yet come” , the seventh, is the reform movement known as Protestantism which did continue for approximately 500 years, a short space and counts to the seventh head. Now all protestant churches are no longer protestant of the Papacy or Judaism or even the occult etc. The only protestants are now the invisible true church. Like you and I as we see all in apostasy and protest. Protestantism proves to be a apostate system also as none ever got around to the beginning “Ekklesia”, which would be the only system the gates of Hell have not yet or will be prevailed against. All of them are fallen, none are the Remnant!

(Chapter 17: is the explanation chapter)

Re 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. ( very important verse )

Re 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The beast that is the eighth is Satan, the first son of perdition. He is of the seven because he now leads them all. The one that became the Papacy was the one set up by the Apostles and was the one John saw “and one is” after the five before it fell proven false, no saviour. This all the heads, six in Johns day, the seventh has not yet come.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

We see him come out of the earth in Rev. 13:11 where he was cast “into the earth“. Yes and the whole world will “wonder”, admire and worship him.

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

( And then here we see him come up out of the earth )

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

He comes out personating Jesus and will take that name, he appears to be a male lamb so to speak, Jesus Christ the Saviour but is not. But he speaks as a dragon because that’s who he is!

That should explain the change of kingly power and it’s importance to the prophecy.

Now to show the Papacy is not the first beast of Rev. 13:. It is really very simple but not many read and understand all each verse brings out.

Re 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

This leopard like beast also has 7 heads and 10 horns like the great red dragon, Satan and so is his image, likeness, as it is later called.

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

First off notice “one” of the beasts heads is wounded and is healed and then all the world wonders after the beast, not the wounded head that was healed. There is 6 more heads to the beast and 10 horns. The beast is greater than the head that was wounded.

Note also it is the dragon giving this first beast “HIS” power, “His” seat and “His” great authority, 13:2 above.

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

I want to bring out another important point here and that is this image beast can only make war for 42 more months after the deadly wound is healed. These 3 verses prove it.

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

You surely can see he then is to continue to make war, on the Saints only 42 mos., and that is it period, no more continue.

Note also if this 42 mos. ended in 1798 then the war would have been over against the saints but the war is getting back to the severity now or worse soon than before, Satan has not let up!

The dragon is revealed at this from verse 11 on, has power to give life to the image beast. No one makes war with it as it now rules the world.

Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This he does to prove to the world he is God.

Re 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. ( Remember this image beast is Satan's NWO beast )

The number of this second beast is 666, verse 18 and a lot of folks fly up and say well Satan is not a man but God sees it different. You will have to argue with Him about that one.

Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

America is not the second beast of chap. 13. SDA’s didn’t follow EGW too well, read what she said here, 3 Selected Messages page 393 paragraph 1, note the verses she quotes.

“In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17)”. . . . {3SM 393.1} ( notice she quotes verses 13-17, OK, start with Rev 13:11 and read to the end, verse 18 and see if the context can be broken, it cannot! )

The first beast of the chap. now has “his” Satan’s seat, power and great authority. Then when Satan comes forth and after a time he will give the ten “horns” I find a tenth of the earths kingdom to each of them as his under shepherds. They have king power now but have not been divided a portion yet as their domain, kingdom. One hour only though, verse Re. 17:12.

Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

And so then they are totally with him, Satan the beast,“one mind” and

Re 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

If this don’t make sense, first go back and go over it more slowly as this is a new look to you and will have a tendency to skip and deny the plain truth of it. I will try to help reasonable and sane requests.

This will play out as outlined, as you will soon see.

May you be Blessed.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kountzer]

If you have new light on Rev 13 then rent a hall or something nearby and do a weekend seminar. If it is from heaven then heaven will make a way for it to happen. Otherwise this is just more jibberish on a backwater msg board.

[Gibs]

Kountzer, Did you even read it to see if it don't make sense and jib with scripture? Show me more clear and esily seen as I have.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Gibs, may be I missed it, but did you show what the SoP says when these horns will become kings? who are these horns who have received no kingdom as yet but will receive power as kings one hour (short time) with the beast?

[Gibs]

Sky,

I am sure who the 10 kings are and they now have control of all the banks, industry and all the world leaders do their bidding. Full control is right now in their hands and they meet once a month to decide the fate of this country and the world. War will be with Iran when they give the order. The banking system of Iran must come under their control the same as happened to Libya. Libya's gold and oil was to be taken and the prosperity of that nation had to be halted as the reason was easily seen that it was because the banking system wasn't robbing the people. Iran is advancing even under their sanctions and the same reason is their banking system doesn't rob them. America is to be dragged down a lot lower yet.

That above and more comes out all the time but not by the controlled media. It is a matter of gathering information.

Will my see of this prophecy prove out? Yes, it is well on it's way now and has been for years. I've set this view out now for at least 15 years and no it is not well received.

The scroll has been unrolled for quite awhile but historicism has kept people from looking and seeing. The prophecy is rather clear and easy to interpret.

Got a better view? Post it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

I dont have a better view except what I read from the Bible and the SoP.

The SoP clearly states that the ten horns are "churches" of the protestant faith when they shall receive power from the state to enforce Sunday worship and then they will give their power, authority to the beast, to the papacy.

These churches have no kingdom as yet, no power or authority to enforce their decrees. But the time is coming when these churches shall have one mind. "When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image to the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result." The Great Controversy,445.

This is the time when these churches (ten horns) shall receive power as kings and they will speak as a dragon. And then they will give their power and authority to the beast.

"What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath." E.G. White Bible Commentary, Vol.7,983.

"In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, who have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Ibid,983.

This last statement is a commentary upon Rev.17:1,2 speaking of those kings which Mrs. White identifies as "churches," would-be kings to enforce their decrees upon all as the papacy did in the Dark Ages.

sky

[skyblue888]

And we know that following this Satan will manifest his power so that every country on the globe will follow the example of the United States. Every major religion will influence the government of their own countries to enforce Sunday and they too will give their power to the beast.

sky

[Gibs]

No church or church system has king power now or ever will. Some of these are called Jews of these 10 horns but are not. Satan has all the churches of the world where he wants them and he will come on the scene not too far distant future in a body he has selected just as The Father came in the body prepared for him whom we call Jesus Christ. Just from the speed of things "falling" it looks like that might be less than 5 years, but no way can I know for certain.

The decree of the mark of the beast will come out of Satan's mouth and EGW also states that.

The power is in his head, "he is wiser than Daniel" or any man,

"I saw that the two-horned beast had a dragon's mouth, and that his power was in his head, and that the decree would go out of his mouth. Then I saw the Mother of Harlots; that the mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints. I saw that as the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother. {SpM 1.4}

Certainly the Sunday keeping churches will be hot to persecute the Sabbath keepers as they have been a sharp burr under their saddle a long long time. Yes they will be for it and exert their power but the ones that are in control are Satan's men and not of churches. I think the churches will be a big part but are not the kings.

But remember the crowns are not on the daughters. Nor are they the ones now puppeting the rulers of this country and all countries and these 10 men, dynasties, know already who they will have to be the next president if there is to be another.

This country may be broken up in 4 main divisions and the northern most states may be Canadian ruled. I can't remember for sure who the main four countries were projected to have parts, I think though it has something to do with how Satan has planned to divide the world to his 10 faithful.

There is still things to unfold and it may not be exactly as I see but I keep watching.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

So then, should we ignore the SoP which clearly says that these horns are churches which will receive power as kings when church and state unite... we know that when church and state unite it will be the churches that will wield the power of the state... will not the churches, then, have received a kingdom and will they not give their power and authority to the beast, the papacy?

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

This country may be broken up in 4 main divisions and the northern most states may be Canadian ruled.

I knew it!! My plan for Canadian dominance WILL be relized after all!!!

Now I just gotta get off my butt and start my bid for Canadian dictator....

Its gonna be EPIC.

[Gibs]

Sky and EC,

We will soon see as it is beginning to play out and EC you'll need them 10 behind you and you would be. But let's just be one of the lowest in Yahshua's kingdom and we'll be better satisfied.

The churches Sky will do the part allotted to them.

His Blessings

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Gibs,

You really need to understand Canadians better than that. We change political leadership more often that any country I know of. We don't like leaders with those kinds of ambitions. Let me give you an example of how hard it is for Canadian polititions to get a lot of attention here. During the campains for last years elections all parties were having a difficult time getting any airtime on CBC, a government funded network. This was because the Vancouver Canucks were on a run to win the Stanley Cup and said government funded television network knew that there would be a huge outcry from the viewing audience if they pre empted any games for the electoral campains.

The chances of me winning the lottery are much better than the chances of Canada trying to control any of the States.

[phkrause]

I'm with you skyblue, I'll stick with the Bible and how EGW interprets Revelations 13. Also Jon Paulien does a great job. From what I've heard he is one of the leading authorities on Revelation. He did a devotional a few years ago on Revelation. Excellent piece of work. Also if I'm not mistaken there is a member of this thread that has also done a work on Revelation, believe his last name is Lambert? Not sure of his first name. I'll see if I can find out more.

[John317]

...I want to bring out another important point here and that is this image beast can only make war for 42 more months after the deadly wound is healed. These 3 verses prove it.

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

You surely can see he then is to continue to make war, on the Saints only 42 mos., and that is it period, no more continue.

Note also if this 42 mos. ended in 1798 then the war would have been over against the saints but the war is getting back to the severity now or worse soon than before, Satan has not let up!

The 1260 days, the "time, times, and half a time," and the 42 months are all the same period of time: 1260 years.

1 Time=360 days

2 Times= 720 days

1/2 a Time= 180 days

3 1/2 Times= 1260 days

A prophetic "month" had 30 days. Therefore, 42 "months" (42 x 30)= 1260 days.

Daniel 12: 7 "A time, times, and an half"

Rev. 11: 2 "Forty and two months."

Rev. 11: 3 "Twelve hundred and sixty days"

Rev. 12: 6 "Twelve Hundred and Sixty days"

Rev. 12: 14 "A time, times, and half a time."

Rev. 13: 5 "Forty and Two months"

All six of the above mentioned references being found in symbolic prophecy, the "day for a year" principle applies to them also.

[Gibs]

John312,

The 42 mos. of Rev 13 can't be as this beast didn't begin to rise up out of the sea of peoples until after 1798 and if you had of read carefully I gave more reasons in my post. The "time" prophedies ended with the one reaching 1844, ones after that are literal. Then it is easily discerned the deadly wound that was inflicted must be healed first. It isn't healed yet. It will be healed when Martyrdom begins again without recompense again as it was before the wound. Historicists stand so strong against seeing it that they look over the proofs. Please read and consider more carefully.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

All of this is just "human fantasy".

Revelation chapter thirteen reveals none of these "human" made interpretations.

Humans are just guessing and then hoping that the more of this "fantasy mud" they sling something will actually stick to the wall.

Everyone of these "fantasy theories" needs some "outside support" from human sources, be it history, conspiracy theories, human logic, hocus pocus scholarship, etc. etc. etc.

None of these "outside human supports" is even close to being worthy of interpreting God's Holy Word because they use human stuff to interpret the Word of God.

You should be using the Word of God to interpret the Word of God.

[Gibs]

All prophecy is to be understood or He wouldn't have given it to us. There is about as many views as their is people who make out an interpretation, sort em out and someday it'll be seen who saw it right and really the day is close, a few short years.

Blessings are given,

Re 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Re 1:3 ¶ Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib's says,

"All prophecy is to be understood or He wouldn't have given it to us."

He also gave us a divinely appointed messenger that we may correctly interpret scripture, Ellen White. You might gain some significant insights on Revelation if you studied the counsel she offers on the subject. From your presentation so far, Brother Gibs, I would highly recommend another look at her work on this subject.

William Miller is also an excellent source for this subject, he made an interesting chart that covers the 42 month time period.

[phkrause]

Gib's says,

"All prophecy is to be understood or He wouldn't have given it to us."

He also gave us a divinely appointed messenger that we may correctly interpret scripture, Ellen White. You might gain some significant insights on Revelation if you studied the counsel she offers on the subject. From your presentation so far, Brother Gibs, I would highly recommend another look at her work on this subject.

William Miller is also an excellent source for this subject, he made an interesting chart that covers the 42 month time period.

[Gibs]

I probably follow EGW closer than most here and one of her quotes on Rev 13 I brought out don't agree with the historic view. The scroll she stated would be fully unrolled and more would be understood. SDA's for the most part have never advanced in prophecy from maybe even before 1888.

Because of rejection of light the Lord wanted to impart no more is given until that one is received. Has that happened? I'll let you answer that to your own satisfaction. It sure has in the past and is our present day immune from that with all kinds of error and falling back that has come in and continues to come in.

The preponderance of evidence it looks to me is that the SDA church has fallen back and heavy.

The light most important for the church ever to have received was the message given in 1888 and started some before by EGW. It was properly received by but few, most went on across the road into the liberalism ditch and very few see she fought that vigorously. Do you need statements of her on that, read most of my posts and comments i've posted.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

EmptyCross,

It is in Canada like it is in the USA, people think they have put in who they want, but the problem is they only get to vote from a pool of whom the ten horns of the beast allow. They program the whole thing. They know who your next top puppets will be the same world over. All are their puppets. They puppet the whole world. He who has the money rules. They have all moneys in their hands and are in full control. It has been going on for a lot of years.

You'll see it soon if you don't now, we are under a New One World Order and 2012 is the year full fruitition of it's full control is to be implimented.

It' all been laid out in the prophecy, and been seen by many for years also.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

How is it possible to at once acknowledge Ellen White is an inspired messenger and then ignore or dismiss her counsel on the 42 month time frame of the 2,300 year prophecy? HOW is that possible? It boggles the mind, challenges the concepts of reason and logic.

On another note, I continue to look into this "1335 Futurist" view points. Adventist who put various time frames of prophecy in a future setting. Of course there is no consistent theology here, it's the wild west of future prophecy. But I do some common threads among all these various groups:

They are absolutely convinced they are led of the spirit and feel they are 100% correct in their findings. They do not, will not, accept the counsel of the brethren, the local church, the Conference, the General Conference or anybody else that challenges their view.

Some retain membership within the Adventist church but typically are NOT actually attending the specific church where there membership exists. For the most part, they work in secrecy as it concerns the church and I suspect there secrets were revealed at their home church.

They are looking for sincere Adventists to share their message with. I find this aspect particularly troubling as they "target" those with a sincere desire to find truth and do so with apparent godliness and a deep spiritual committment. Wolves in sheeps clothing to be sure, working from within the church. Scary!

There is much use of Ellen White in the delivery, but when the concepts start to get difficult, they go back to "bible only" for their source. Being led by the Holy Spirit is a favorite phrase oft repeated. Claiming, and I've heard this from many sources now, that the pioneers didn't have all the light. That Ellen White didn't have all the light. That in some specific cases the pioneers were wrong, but bless their hearts, they did the best they could. They present their theology as entirely "new light". Thus, we have a fascinating mixture of truth and error and it becomes difficult for the uninformed to separate the two.

There is basically no reasoning with these people once they have started down this path. I see very little hope of recovery and that thought is echoed by Sister White as it concerns those who pick up and run with error. Few find their way back to the path.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

The 42 mos. of Rev. 13: if you rightly look can't be the period ending the year 1798 but must happen after that date. The 42 mos. of Rev. 11: also are future and cannot start until after the event of verse one. The French revolution was not even a very good application of that prophecy for just that one reason and there is several more that don't jib up.

For a fulfillment of a prophecy to happen "EVERY" point of the prophecy must be met. Any other is an application and in a lot of cases very poor applications.

I am not a historicist or a futurist but am a realist.

There is several things in Adventism that isn't fully worked out and the prophecies is one of the areas.

The worst one that needs overhall on and the most grievious is the "new age theology of salvation" that has come in. It is not the message, far from it of 1888. It is the opposite ditch from legalism.

One of my thrusts here is that the religious systems are the heads of the beast of Rev 13: and it is the horns that have the ruling, king, crowned power.

The protestant Sunday churches will be the main pushers of the mark of the beast but must get the authority of the enforcement from the horns. Then the decree does not come from them but will when Satan comes on board and the decree will come forth from his mouth.

There is another thing to see here and that is that in Rev 12: Satan ruled directly through mainly the corrupted Christian system that ceased being of Christ but became the tool of Satan. He was the authority in it and the martyrdom came at his command.

And so it will be again, his commands now are being put down through those 10 horns and on the mark, since it is his it must be from his mouth. He Satan is whose mark it is. Yes he is the beast of Rev 13:11-18!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

A realist? Then lets get real.

You talk about "Adventists" that haven't figured this out, but reality is: You are saying William Miller, Ellen White and the pioneers got it wrong. The reason this "1335 Adventist Futurist" (and thats exactly what it is) is so dangerous is because it is a direct attack on the very foundation of Seventh-day Adventist beliefs.

The 42 month time frame is in the past, there is no question of that. The only possible solution would be a dual fulfillment of this time frame that takes place in the future. Having studied that scenario I find it impossible.

And yet, there are many sincere Adventist who continue to contemplate and consider the "what if" scenarios of a dual fulfillment of the 1260, 1290 and 1335 time segments. There is "just enough" doubt that can be brought to bear on these issues that good people, sincere people, folks truly looking for the truth will fall into a delusion. Very dangerous ground here, proceed with great caution.

Those caught up in this will BE convinced they are led of the Spirit and with much prayer and soul searching. How then will it be possible to discern the truth? At every step you must seek the counsel of the brethren and apply those principles of safty in numbers. The most important aspect of this deception is how it is carried out in "secrecy". Counsel that it is dangerous to talk to others, counsel that the church does not know, or worse, is in apostasy. Counsel that you alone must weigh the evidence. All this is designed to remove your anchor, you place yourself on Satans ground when you move into the "secret realm" of prophey interpretation.

I say this not for Gib's edification, but as a warning to those who are particularly vunerable to new prophecy interpretations, Seventh-day Adventists!

[John317]

I probably follow EGW closer than most here ....

Don't you actually reject EGW here?

In GC 439, she wrote that the 42 months is the same as the "time, times, and dividing of times," as well as the 1260 days.

She also clearly identifies the first beast as the papacy and the second beast as the USA. You also reject this.

So how can you say that you follow EGW closer than most?

Wouldn't it be honest, under the circumstances, to say that you don't accept Ellen G. White, than to say you follow her yet reject what she says?

Ellen White herself is following valid principles of Bible interpretation in what she says here:

Quote:

In chapter 13 (verses 1-10) is described another beast, "like unto a leopard," to which the dragon gave "his power, and his seat, and great authority." This symbol, as most Protestants have believed, represents the papacy, which succeeded to the power and seat and authority once held by the ancient Roman empire. Of the leopardlike beast it is declared: "There was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies. . . . And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." This prophecy, which is nearly identical with the description of the little horn of Daniel 7, unquestionably points to the papacy. {GC 439.1}

"Power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." And, says the prophet, "I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death." And again: "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." The forty and two months are the same as the "time and times and the dividing of time," three years and a half, or 1260 days, of Daniel 7 - - the time during which the papal power was to oppress God's people.[/b] This period, as stated in preceding chapters, began with the supremacy of the papacy, A.D. 538, and terminated in 1798. At that time the pope was made captive by the French army, the papal power received its deadly wound, and the prediction was fulfilled, "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity." {GC 439.2}

At this point another symbol is introduced. Says the prophet: "I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb." Verse 11. Both the appearance of this beast and the manner of its rise indicate that the nation which it represents is unlike those presented under the preceding symbols. The great kingdoms that have ruled the world were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when "the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." Daniel 7:2. In Revelation 17 an angel explained that waters represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." Revelation 17:15. Winds are a symbol of strife. The four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea represent the terrible scenes of conquest and revolution by which kingdoms have attained to power. {GC 439.3}

But the beast with lamblike horns was seen "coming up out of the earth." Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World--that turbulent sea of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It must be sought in the Western Continent. {GC 440.1}

What nation of the New World was in 1798 rising into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, and attracting the attention of the world? The application of the symbol admits of no question. One nation, and only one, meets the specifications of this prophecy; it points unmistakably to the United States of America. Again and again the thought, almost the exact words, of the sacred writer has been unconsciously employed by the orator and the historian in describing the rise and growth of this nation. The beast was seen "coming up out of the earth;" and, according to the translators, the word here rendered "coming up" literally signifies "to grow or spring up as a plant." And, as we have seen, the nation must arise in territory previously unoccupied. A prominent writer, describing the rise of the United States, speaks of "the mystery of her coming forth from vacancy," and says: "Like a silent seed we grew into empire."--G. A. Townsend, The New World Compared With the Old, page 462. A European journal in 1850 spoke of the United States as a wonderful empire, which was "emerging," and "amid the silence of the earth daily adding to its power and pride." --The Dublin Nation. Edward Everett, in an oration on the Pilgrim founders of this nation, said: "Did they look for a retired spot, inoffensive for its obscurity, and safe in its remoteness, where the little church of Leyden might enjoy the freedom of conscience? Behold the mighty regions over which, in peaceful conquest, . . . they have borne the banners of the cross!"--Speech delivered at Plymouth, Massachusetts, Dec. 22, 1824, page 11. {GC 440.2}

"And he had two horns like a lamb." The lamblike horns indicate youth, innocence, and gentleness, fitly representing the character of the United States when presented to the prophet as "coming up" in 1798. Among the Christian exiles who first fled to America and sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance were many who determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. Their views found place in the Declaration of Independence, which sets forth the great truth that "all men are created equal" and endowed with the inalienable right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." And the Constitution guarantees to the people the right of self-government, providing that representatives elected by the popular vote shall enact and administer the laws. Freedom of religious faith was also granted, every man being permitted to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience. Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity. The oppressed and downtrodden throughout Christendom have turned to this land with interest and hope. Millions have sought its shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth. {GC 441.1}

But the beast with lamblike horns "spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed; . . . saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live." Revelation 13:11-14. {GC 441.2}

The lamblike horns and dragon voice of the symbol point to a striking contradiction between the professions and the practice of the nation thus represented. The "speaking" of the nation is the action of its legislative and judicial authorities. By such action it will give the lie to those liberal and peaceful principles which it has put forth as the foundation of its policy. The prediction that it will speak "as a dragon" and exercise "all the power of the first beast" plainly foretells a development of the spirit of intolerance and persecution that was manifested by the nations represented by the dragon and the leopardlike beast. And the statement that the beast with two horns "causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast" indicates that the authority of this nation is to be exercised in enforcing some observance which shall be an act of homage to the papacy. {GC 442.1}

Such action would be directly contrary to the principles of this government, to the genius of its free institutions, to the direct and solemn avowals of the Declaration of Independence, and to the Constitution. The founders of the nation wisely sought to guard against the employment of secular power on the part of the church, with its inevitable result--intolerance and persecution. The Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Only in flagrant violation of these safeguards to the nation's liberty, can any religious observance be enforced by civil authority. But the inconsistency of such action is no greater than is represented in the symbol. It is the beast with lamblike horns--in profession pure, gentle, and harmless--that speaks as a dragon. {GC 442.2}

"Saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast." Here is clearly presented a form of government in which the legislative power rests with the people, a most striking evidence that the United States is the nation denoted in the prophecy. {GC 442.3}