The Real Interpretation Of Rev. Chap. 13:

[John317]

All of this is just "human fantasy".

You need to do more than state your conclusion. Do some valid exegesis and show us your reasoning in the Scriptures. Making a mere sweeping generalization rejecting what others have said is not helpful.

[Lysimachus]

ClubV12,

The 42 mos. of Rev. 13: if you rightly look can't be the period ending the year 1798 but must happen after that date. The 42 mos. of Rev. 11: also are future and cannot start until after the event of verse one. The French revolution was not even a very good application of that prophecy for just that one reason and there is several more that don't jib up.

For a fulfillment of a prophecy to happen "EVERY" point of the prophecy must be met. Any other is an application and in a lot of cases very poor applications.

I am not a historicist or a futurist but am a realist.

There is several things in Adventism that isn't fully worked out and the prophecies is one of the areas.

The worst one that needs overhall on and the most grievious is the "new age theology of salvation" that has come in. It is not the message, far from it of 1888. It is the opposite ditch from legalism.

One of my thrusts here is that the religious systems are the heads of the beast of Rev 13: and it is the horns that have the ruling, king, crowned power.

The protestant Sunday churches will be the main pushers of the mark of the beast but must get the authority of the enforcement from the horns. Then the decree does not come from them but will when Satan comes on board and the decree will come forth from his mouth.

There is another thing to see here and that is that in Rev 12: Satan ruled directly through mainly the corrupted Christian system that ceased being of Christ but became the tool of Satan. He was the authority in it and the martyrdom came at his command.

And so it will be again, his commands now are being put down through those 10 horns and on the mark, since it is his it must be from his mouth. He Satan is whose mark it is. Yes he is the beast of Rev 13:11-18!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, you are really going too far. This is unacceptable. At first I thought your minor problem was with your 33 A.D. date, now you are showing your TRUE colors to completely dispense with the Spirit of Prophecy. What a shame.

I have already established why the deadly wound must transpire:

1. At the end of the 42 months.

2. Before the Lamb Like Beast fully rises up out of the earth.

There is no way around this, regardless of the chronological layout. Lay all the pieces of Revelation 13 out, and this chronological outcome will be forced in the mold.

You are on dangerous grounds with your private interpretations. I can speak to you this way because you profess to be an SDA.

[Gibs]

John317,

Try this one, and notice the verses she quotes and then you go yourself and start with Rev 13:11 and see if you can break the text from holding on to the first verse all the way to the end of the chapter. Please do it and you may be surprised.

EGW,

"In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

John follow me here even the text of 13: reveals it, follow what the text tells us,

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Notice it is the dragon that gives to this first beast "his" power "his" seat and "his" great authority! Same is revealed in the following verse that it is Satan who empowers.

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Now this verse ( below )is after the second beast revealed in verse 11 and you notice it is this beast that is the one that was brought out in verses 2 and 4. What could be plainer? It defineitly reveals this is the Dragon, who is the Dragon, Satan of course. Go back to verse 2,4 again!

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

EGW was a little sharper than U. Smith, she didn't want to stir up contention and started with verse 13 so it wouldn't be such a direct opposing view but that the sharper ones might see.

AT Jones was far better on prophecy than U Smith but he wasn't editor of the Review and GC president. Smith had it his way.

EGW covered herself on who was the second beast, she would state "it has been shown" the USA etc. She didn't state she was shown.

"It has been shown that the United States is the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns, and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as the special acknowledgment of her supremacy. But in this homage to the papacy the United States will not be alone." {GC 578.3}

I will leave it with all to consider, as all things were not completely laid out by the pioneers. Also I do not say my rendition of this may not need to be amended. When I see it does I will certainly amend it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Gibs,

If you want to consider the possible future applications of Daniel 12, I see nothing wrong with that.

But Revelation 13?

That is one of the BACKBONES to Adventism. Without 538 and 1798, Adventism would have lost almost all its wind in its sales. It's these events in these historical prophetic dates that kept the Adventist ship afloat. Disqualify these dates, and you are destroying the foundation of Adventism. You are dismembering it.

1844 is also a significant date, but it was an event that transpired in heaven. Remove the 1260 years from the Dark Ages, and you've practically destroyed our ability to prove that historical events fulfill prophecy.

[Lysimachus]

Refuting the idea that the Deadly Wound precedes the 42 months:

Revelation 13 is not written in perfect chronological order.

13:5 is going BACK again to the time before the wound.

After verse 5, you have:

13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

If the 1260 days are future, are we to conclude that another beast comes up after the 1260 days in verse 5?

Also you have verse 10 which states:

13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

It mentions the "sword" here, and "captivity". This verse is transpiring after verse 5 which mentions the 42 months. Then you have verse 12:

13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This places the wound as happening before the Lamb Like Beast, but after the 42 months.

Then you have verse 14:

13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the WOUND BY A SWORD, and did live.

The wound was by what? by the sword. Where is the sword mentioned before? In verse 10 where the beast is killed with the sword (the state), and goes into captivity. Verse 10 was an event that comes after the 42 months in verse 5.

Thus we see that these passages are not strictly listed in chronological order. Yet the correct chronology can be deduced by comparing the written words with historical events.

The deadly wound must transpire at the end of the 42 months. Not before.

[Gibs]

Lysimachus,

Please go back to my comment back to John317 just above your comment above. I am a slow typer and you got yours in before mine. My comment to John there may answer your query above.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Lysimachus, I understand the desire of some to contemplate some kind of future application as it regards portions of the 2,300 year prophecy, and I remain open to a reasonable presentation of this view.

However, I have YET TO SEE anyone actually present such a view that doesn't end up in the same shipwreck with Gibs. Just different life boats, same debris strewn waters.

If and when such a view comes to fruition it will be considered by the body of believers as whole, the brethren. Openly, not in secret, carefully studied and considered, with a humble spirit. It will be put aside if the time is not yet right to bring it forth. It won't be presented by some group or person who denigrates the pioneers (Uriah Smith in particular, I have found), but other pioneers as well. Subtle questioning of Ellen Whites comments are also typical, to an outright rejection of her counsel. It will be a theology that builds on previous light and offers a new understanding, not a theology that tears down and scatters.

These "Adventist Futurist" theories are OFTEN brought forth by those who believe in home churches or denounce the Adventist church outright. But not always, some folks are IN the church and hold responsible positions therein! Perhaps, under the right circumstances there is a place for a home church. The problem is, I don't believe that time has yet come and the association with those who would scatter is to close. I will steer a wide course, for now, on the home church issues as well as the futurist view points. The path of truth lays close to the path of error here, this error is aimed specifically at the more religiously inclined among the body of believers.

[ClubV12]

"It has been shown that the United States is the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns, and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as the special acknowledgment of her supremacy. But in this homage to the papacy the United States will not be alone." {GC 578.3}

Gibs your interpretation of this quote is entirely wrong, in my opinion. You suggest "it has been shown", means that others have shown, but it is not true. That is NOT AT ALL what Ellen White is saying in this quote!!! She is clearly saying exactly what it appears she is saying, "It HAS been shown...". As in, the matter is concluded, it has been shown and the results stand.

[Lysimachus]

John317,

Try this one, and notice the verses she quotes and then you go yourself and start with Rev 13:11 and see if you can break the text from holding on to the first verse all the way to the end of the chapter. Please do it and you may be surprised.

EGW,

"In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

John follow me here even the text of 13: reveals it, follow what the text tells us,

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Notice it is the dragon that gives to this first beast "his" power "his" seat and "his" great authority! Same is revealed in the following verse that it is Satan who empowers.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

...I want to bring out another important point here and that is this image beast can only make war for 42 more months after the deadly wound is healed. These 3 verses prove it.

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

You surely can see he then is to continue to make war, on the Saints only 42 mos., and that is it period, no more continue.

Note also if this 42 mos. ended in 1798 then the war would have been over against the saints but the war is getting back to the severity now or worse soon than before, Satan has not let up!

The 1260 days, the "time, times, and half a time," and the 42 months are all the same period of time: 1260 years.

1 Time=360 days

2 Times= 720 days

1/2 a Time= 180 days

3 1/2 Times= 1260 days

A prophetic "month" had 30 days. Therefore, 42 "months" (42 x 30)= 1260 days.

Daniel 12: 7 "A time, times, and an half"

Rev. 11: 2 "Forty and two months."

Rev. 11: 3 "Twelve hundred and sixty days"

Rev. 12: 6 "Twelve Hundred and Sixty days"

Rev. 12: 14 "A time, times, and half a time."

Rev. 13: 5 "Forty and Two months"

All six of the above mentioned references being found in symbolic prophecy, the "day for a year" principle applies to them also.

I respectfully object to your idea that all of these time periods are the same time. A month is a new moon to a new moon. 1260 days are the time for the Holy People. Times time and a half is 3 and a half years that starts on the Spring equinox and ends on the fall equinox.

You are not following the rules for end time prophecy understanding.

[Dr. Rich]

"It has been shown that the United States is the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns, and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as the special acknowledgment of her supremacy. But in this homage to the papacy the United States will not be alone." {GC 578.3}

Gibs your interpretation of this quote is entirely wrong, in my opinion. You suggest "it has been shown", means that others have shown, but it is not true. That is NOT AT ALL what Ellen White is saying in this quote!!! She is clearly saying exactly what it appears she is saying, "It HAS been shown...". As in, the matter is concluded, it has been shown and the results stand.

EGW was clearly wrong here as she was totally wrong in what she said on page 433 in the GC. Therefore, why do people still attempt to use her teachings? Don't they know that Jesus warned us about her in Rev. 2:18-25? How sad :(

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

All of this is just "human fantasy".

You need to do more than state your conclusion. Do some valid exegesis and show us your reasoning in the Scriptures. Making a mere sweeping generalization rejecting what others have said is not helpful.

The proof is in the posts as rendered. They are filled with human thoughts, human theories, human conclusions, human logic, human outside sources, human etc., etc..

None of them are based on the Bible and the Bible only.

Even your post John 317 was devoid of Biblical substance but instead was filled with "outside sources" almost exclusively.

Are you unable to make your point using the Bible and the Bible only without human logic and/or human outside sources?

[miz3]

Gibs,

If you want to consider the possible future applications of Daniel 12, I see nothing wrong with that.

But Revelation 13?

That is one of the BACKBONES to Adventism. Without 538 and 1798, Adventism would have lost almost all its wind in its sales. It's these events in these historical prophetic dates that kept the Adventist ship afloat. Disqualify these dates, and you are destroying the foundation of Adventism. You are dismembering it.

1844 is also a significant date, but it was an event that transpired in heaven. Remove the 1260 years from the Dark Ages, and you've practically destroyed our ability to prove that historical events fulfill prophecy.

Thus, it is better to hold to error than to change and adopt the Truth.

Sounds a lot like the Jews of Christ's day who would rather kill God than give up their cherished doctrines.

[miz3]

The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized--the United States." {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 5}

The United States DID NOT RISE IN A PEACEFUL WAY.

The United States rose with great conflict and a Revolutionary War. Much blood and violence was made in order to acquire the Freedom we Americans should hold dear.

I guess this is another example of Ellen White "expressing her opinion" because God would never ever give her this "erroneous fact" in regard to the beginnings and rise of the United States.

I find it amazing how many overlook such "inconsistencies" and still say that Ellen White is as "inspired as the Bible".

No wonder SDA Church .org is in such a confused state. They have made Ellen White their god and her writings the highest message on earth.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: John317

The 1260 days, the "time, times, and half a time," and the 42 months are all the same period of time: 1260 years.

1 Time=360 days

2 Times= 720 days

1/2 a Time= 180 days

3 1/2 Times= 1260 days

A prophetic "month" had 30 days. Therefore, 42 "months" (42 x 30)= 1260 days.

Daniel 12: 7 "A time, times, and an half"

Rev. 11: 2 "Forty and two months."

Rev. 11: 3 "Twelve hundred and sixty days"

Rev. 12: 6 "Twelve Hundred and Sixty days"

Rev. 12: 14 "A time, times, and half a time."

Rev. 13: 5 "Forty and Two months"

All six of the above mentioned references being found in symbolic prophecy, the "day for a year" principle applies to them also.

I respectfully object to your idea that all of these time periods are the same time. A month is a new moon to a new moon. 1260 days are the time for the Holy People. Times time and a half is 3 and a half years that starts on the Spring equinox and ends on the fall equinox.

You are not following the rules for end time prophecy understanding.

Oh yeah?

Then see if you can refute this:

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2002/August/a-dispensationalist-calculation-error.html

There is no way you can make the 42 months be literal time. Unless you want to conclude ANOTHER 1260 years?

Read the article and see what I mean.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

"It has been shown that the United States is the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns, and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as the special acknowledgment of her supremacy. But in this homage to the papacy the United States will not be alone." {GC 578.3}

Gibs your interpretation of this quote is entirely wrong, in my opinion. You suggest "it has been shown", means that others have shown, but it is not true. That is NOT AT ALL what Ellen White is saying in this quote!!! She is clearly saying exactly what it appears she is saying, "It HAS been shown...". As in, the matter is concluded, it has been shown and the results stand.

EGW was clearly wrong here as she was totally wrong in what she said on page 433 in the GC. Therefore, why do people still attempt to use her teachings? Don't they know that Jesus warned us about her in Rev. 2:18-25? How sad

But how do you know for sure she is wrong? Have you considered the possibility that human wisdom is severely flawed? Are you sure it's not your own private interpretation that persuades you to disregard what Ellen White says?

[Lysimachus]

The proof is in the posts as rendered. They are filled with human thoughts, human theories, human conclusions, human logic, human outside sources, human etc., etc..

None of them are based on the Bible and the Bible only.

Even your post John 317 was devoid of Biblical substance but instead was filled with "outside sources" almost exclusively.

Are you unable to make your point using the Bible and the Bible only without human logic and/or human outside sources?

Miz3, you employ your own human logic everytime you read the scriptures. Your interpretations cannot be trusted. Ellen White, who had the gift of inspiration, did.

There are thousands of people who read the Bible with no outside sources, and ALL of them come to different conclusions of what it means.

With the gift of Inspiration, it brings the Church into unity of doctrine concerning the passages in question.

Otherwise, you are employing your own frail human logic on the scriptures.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized--the United States." {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 5}

The United States DID NOT RISE IN A PEACEFUL WAY.

The United States rose with great conflict and a Revolutionary War. Much blood and violence was made in order to acquire the Freedom we Americans should hold dear.

I guess this is another example of Ellen White "expressing her opinion" because God would never ever give her this "erroneous fact" in regard to the beginnings and rise of the United States.

I find it amazing how many overlook such "inconsistencies" and still say that Ellen White is as "inspired as the Bible".

No wonder SDA Church .org is in such a confused state. They have made Ellen White their god and her writings the highest message on earth.

She is referring to "peaceful" in the sense of---peaceful with it's own people. It was a nation of peace, not war and strife.

Contrast the rise of other nations, and FAR more blood was spilled compared to the lives lost during the rise of the USA.

She's speaking in a sense of Religious Freedom--that kind of peace. It rose on these peaceful principles.

[Guest]

That's right Marcos.

[miz3]

But how do you know for sure she is wrong? Have you considered the possibility that human wisdom is severely flawed? Are you sure it's not your own private interpretation that persuades you to disregard what Ellen White says?

You see everyone, only SDA Church .org is allowed to have their own private interpretation.

No one else should even dream about it.

Second, only SDA Church .org can have "human wisdom" on their interpretations of the Bible but everyone else is not allowed to use their human wisdom.

Third, only SDA Church .org "human wisdom" is not flawed but everyone else's "human wisdom" is flawed.

This is the SDA Church .org "rules" for discussing truth.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized--the United States." {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 5}

The United States DID NOT RISE IN A PEACEFUL WAY.

The United States rose with great conflict and a Revolutionary War. Much blood and violence was made in order to acquire the Freedom we Americans should hold dear.

I guess this is another example of Ellen White "expressing her opinion" because God would never ever give her this "erroneous fact" in regard to the beginnings and rise of the United States.

I find it amazing how many overlook such "inconsistencies" and still say that Ellen White is as "inspired as the Bible".

No wonder SDA Church .org is in such a confused state. They have made Ellen White their god and her writings the highest message on earth.

[miz3]

It is clear that Ellen White was citing her own OPINION.

Such a false statement could never ever have come from God.

[Lysimachus]

It is clear that Ellen White was citing her own OPINION.

Such a false statement could never ever have come from God.

She was stating a fact.

The government of the United States of America rose on peaceful principles--religious tolerance. Your government did not persecute you and throw you in prison for exercising your religion. She's speaking in reference to our US Constitution.

Historians will agree that this is indeed a "peaceful" nation, built on "peaceful principles". You're reading too much into her words I think.

[John317]

3

[John317]

Even your post John 317 was devoid of Biblical substance but instead was filled with "outside sources" almost exclusively.

Are you unable to make your point using the Bible and the Bible only without human logic and/or human outside sources?

My post was written to and for people who accept Ellen White as a prophet, and to show Gibs what Ellen White wrote. I didn't quote her in order to prove to non-SDAs that Ellen White's views are correct. I don't even refer to Ellen White when writing to non-SDA or to those who reject Ellen White. So I quoted her merely to show what she wrote, not to prove that what she wrote is true.

I know you don't believe in her, so I really wasn't writing to you when I posted.