The Real Interpretation Of Rev. Chap. 13:

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

It is clear that Ellen White was citing her own OPINION.

Such a false statement could never ever have come from God.

She was stating a fact.

The government of the United States of America rose on peaceful principles--religious tolerance. Your government did not persecute you and throw you in prison for exercising your religion. She's speaking in reference to our US Constitution.

Historians will agree that this is indeed a "peaceful" nation, built on "peaceful principles". You're reading too much into her words I think.

Here again is what Ellen White wrote:

"The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized--the United States." {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 5}"

Notice the underlined part. It is a clear statement. This clear statement is indeed false. The United States rose by engaging in a very bitter and bloody Revolution.

There are no statements in the quote, before the quote, and/or after the quote that give us any of "your clarifying" data. Thus, we have to conclude that "your clarifying data" is your own and not hers.

If Ellen White wanted to clarify what she meant she would have done so.

She didn't, so the statement stands as it is written.

Did Ellen White personally tell you what she meant by this statement so you could go out and clarify her words to the rest of the world?

If she didn't, which is exactly the case, then you are trying to clarify something you know nothing about.

Here is Ellen White's statement in full:

(the underlined part is what you quoted, the rest is the context)

"Under the symbols of the great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamblike horns, the earthly governments which would be especially engaged in trampling upon God’s law and persecuting His people, were presented to John. Their war is to be carried on till the close of time. The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, are represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days, only a remnant still exists. John speaks of them as those that “keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” {ST February 8, 1910, par. 3}

For many centuries, first through paganism and then through the Papacy, Satan exerted his powers to blot from the earth God’s faithful witnesses. Both heathen and papists were actuated by the same dragon spirit. They differed only in that the Romish apostate, making a pretense of serving God, was the more dangerous and cruel foe. Through the agency of Romanism., Satan took the world captive. The professed church of God was swept into the ranks of this delusion, and for more than a thousand years the true people of God suffered under the dragon’s ire. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 4}

A New Persecutor

At the time when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon’s voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, is represented by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized—the United States. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 5}

The “two horns like a lamb” well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,—Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 6}

But the stern tracings of the prophetic pencil reveal a change in this peaceful scene. The beast with lamblike horns speaks with the voice of a dragon, and “exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him.” Prophecy declares that he will say to them that dwell on the earth, “that they should make an image to the beast,” and that it will cause “all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Thus Protestantism is to follow in the steps of the Papacy. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 7}"

Again there is nothing here of what you say. This cannot be an "inspired" statement from God because the United States did not arise peacefully.

[cheddar]

My post was written to and for people who accept Ellen White as a prophet, and to show Gibs what Ellen White wrote. I didn't quote her in order to prove to non-SDAs that Ellen White's views are correct. I don't even refer to Ellen White when writing to non-SDA or to those who reject Ellen White. So I quoted her merely to show what she wrote, not to prove that what she wrote is true.

I know you don't believe in her, so I really wasn't writing to you when I posted.

John, you act as if Ellen White could never change her opinion on any subject at all.

That just because she put something in print that it's written in stone.

Most christians grow in their experience and don't always see things the same way 10, 15 or 20 years down the road.

This type of dogmatic attitude completely eliminates any kind of learning and growth.

If you’re happy with the good old adventist understanding that’s fine but Gibs quote shows that Ellen White grew in her understanding just like we should.

[John317]

....Here again is what Ellen White wrote:

"The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized--the United States." {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 5}"

Notice the underlined part. It is a clear statement. This clear statement is indeed false. The United States rose by engaging in a very bitter and bloody Revolution.

You need to read everything Ellen White says on the topic, and if you do, you would see clearly that Ellen White was very well aware that the USA became an independent nation by revolting against Britain. She was not ignorant of this fact. She also lived through the American Civil War and knew the cost to the nation of that great struggle. William Miller, whom Ellen White knew personally, fought in the War of 1812.

She also lived in the West at a time when there were wars between the whites and the Indians. She herself traveled across parts of the West and Midwest in covered wagons during the 1870s.

She isn't saying that there was no violence during the time the USA was becoming an independent nation. Ellen White is talking about comparitive terms, that is, in comparison with the way the great nations of Europe came into being. Compare the way those nations-- France, England, Germany, Greece, Italy, Russia-- came into being, with the way the USA arose. There's a huge difference. Their rise to power and independence was filled with violence over many centuries and resulted in the deaths of many hundreds of thousands and more.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Even your post John 317 was devoid of Biblical substance but instead was filled with "outside sources" almost exclusively.

Are you unable to make your point using the Bible and the Bible only without human logic and/or human outside sources?

My post was written to and for people who accept Ellen White as a prophet, and to show Gibs what Ellen White wrote. I didn't quote her in order to prove to non-SDAs that Ellen White's views are correct. I don't even refer to Ellen White when writing to non-SDA or to those who reject Ellen White. So I quoted her merely to show what she wrote, not to prove that what she wrote is true.

I know you don't believe in her, so I really wasn't writing to you when I posted.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

My post was written to and for people who accept Ellen White as a prophet, and to show Gibs what Ellen White wrote. I didn't quote her in order to prove to non-SDAs that Ellen White's views are correct. I don't even refer to Ellen White when writing to non-SDA or to those who reject Ellen White. So I quoted her merely to show what she wrote, not to prove that what she wrote is true.

I know you don't believe in her, so I really wasn't writing to you when I posted.

John, you act as if Ellen White could never change her opinion on any subject at all.

That just because she put something in print that it's written in stone.

Most christians grow in their experience and don't always see things the same way 10, 15 or 20 years down the road.

This type of dogmatic attitude completely eliminates any kind of learning and growth.

If you’re happy with the good old adventist understanding that’s fine but Gibs quote shows that Ellen White grew in her understanding just like we should.

[miz3]

You need to read everything Ellen White says on the topic, and if you do, you would see clearly that Ellen White was very well aware that the USA became an independent nation by revolting against Britain. She was not ignorant of this fact. She also lived through the American Civil War and knew the cost to the nation of that great struggle. William Miller, whom Ellen White knew personally, fought in the War of 1812.

She also lived in the West at a time when there were wars between the whites and the Indians. She herself traveled across parts of the West and Midwest in covered wagons during the 1870s.

She isn't saying that there was no violence during the time the USA was becoming an independent nation. Ellen White is talking about comparitive terms, that is, in comparison with the way the great nations of Europe came into being. Compare the way those nations-- France, England, Germany, Greece, Italy, Russia-- came into being, with the way the USA arose. There's a huge difference. Their rise to power and independence was filled with violence over many centuries and resulted in the deaths of many hundreds of thousands and more.

Again, here is the full statement of what Ellen White wrote:

"Under the symbols of the great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamblike horns, the earthly governments which would be especially engaged in trampling upon God’s law and persecuting His people, were presented to John. Their war is to be carried on till the close of time. The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, are represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days, only a remnant still exists. John speaks of them as those that “keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” {ST February 8, 1910, par. 3}

For many centuries, first through paganism and then through the Papacy, Satan exerted his powers to blot from the earth God’s faithful witnesses. Both heathen and papists were actuated by the same dragon spirit. They differed only in that the Romish apostate, making a pretense of serving God, was the more dangerous and cruel foe. Through the agency of Romanism., Satan took the world captive. The professed church of God was swept into the ranks of this delusion, and for more than a thousand years the true people of God suffered under the dragon’s ire. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 4}

A New Persecutor

At the time when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon’s voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, is represented by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized—the United States. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 5}

The “two horns like a lamb” well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,—Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 6}

But the stern tracings of the prophetic pencil reveal a change in this peaceful scene. The beast with lamblike horns speaks with the voice of a dragon, and “exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him.” Prophecy declares that he will say to them that dwell on the earth, “that they should make an image to the beast,” and that it will cause “all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Thus Protestantism is to follow in the steps of the Papacy. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 7}"

I see no comparing of the rise of the United States with the rise of other nations such as the ones you cite. Once again John317, you, like Lysimachus, are trying to "massage" what Ellen White wrote to make it look like she is correct.

However Ellen White's words speak for themselves and she clearly is giving her opinion and is not giving us correct historical FACT. In FACT "her facts" are wrong.

The United States arose out of great violence. No where in here writing in the above quote does Ellen White directly state and/or infer indirectly that she meant "peaceful in comparison to European nations".

We see with our own eyes and hear with our own ears what Ellen White is communicating to us and she was factually wrong and thus her interpretation is also wrong.

She is expressing her opinion, which she is entitled to have, but she is not under any circumstances citing what "God revealed to her" about Revelation chapter thirteen.

[John317]

John, you act as if Ellen White could never change her opinion on any subject at all.

That just because she put something in print that it's written in stone.

Most christians grow in their experience and don't always see things the same way 10, 15 or 20 years down the road.

There's a difference between personal opinion and what God showed her in vision. Ellen White didn't write her private opinions as if they were from God to the SDA church.

She did have private opinions but she didn't include these in the messages that God inspired her to write. If she did, she would have been a false prophet. A genuine prophet of God writes God's messages, not his/her own messages.

God's people aren't interested in Ellen White's messages; they are interested in God's messages.

Ellen White flatly denied that she wrote her own opinions in the writings for the church. Again, if she had written her opinions, she would have proven herself to be an unreliable messenger.

Did Ellen White grow spiritually and in terms of her knowledge? Yes, of course. No one is denying that she grew. However, that is different from saying that she had to go back to her previous writings and make substantive changes in order to bring them up to date with what God had most recently shown her. That's something Ellen White never had to do. And why not? Because, again, Ellen White didn't write her mere opinions or ideas; she wrote only what God had shown her and what she felt authorized by God to tell the people.

Read 1 SM 25 to 50.

[John317]

...I see no comparing of the rise of the United States with the rise of other nations such as the ones you cite. Once again John317, you, like Lysimachus, are trying to "massage" what Ellen White wrote to make it look like she is correct.

Then you're not reading very carefully.

Here are clear references to comparisons of the other nations:

Quote:

At this point another symbol is introduced. Says the prophet: "I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb." Verse 11. Both the appearance of this beast and the manner of its rise indicate that the nation which it represents is unlike those presented under the preceding symbols. The great kingdoms that have ruled the world were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when "the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." Daniel 7:2. In Revelation 17 an angel explained that waters represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." Revelation 17:15. Winds are a symbol of strife. The four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea represent the terrible scenes of conquest and revolution by which kingdoms have attained to power. {GC 439.3}

But

the beast with lamblike horns was seen "coming up out of the earth." Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World--that turbulent sea of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It must be sought in the Western Continent. {GC 440.1}

What nation of the New World was in 1798 rising into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, and attracting the attention of the world? The application of the symbol admits of no question. One nation, and only one, meets the specifications of this prophecy; it points unmistakably to the United States of America. Again and again the thought, almost the exact words, of the sacred writer has been unconsciously employed by the orator and the historian in describing the rise and growth of this nation. The beast was seen "coming up out of the earth;" and, according to the translators, the word here rendered "coming up" literally signifies "to grow or spring up as a plant." And, as we have seen, the nation must arise in territory previously unoccupied. A prominent writer, describing the rise of the United States, speaks of "the mystery of her coming forth from vacancy," and says: "Like a silent seed we grew into empire."--G. A. Townsend, The New World Compared With the Old, page 462. A European journal in 1850 spoke of the United States as a wonderful empire, which was "emerging," and "amid the silence of the earth daily adding to its power and pride." --The Dublin Nation. Edward Everett, in an oration on the Pilgrim founders of this nation, said: "Did they look for a retired spot, inoffensive for its obscurity, and safe in its remoteness, where the little church of Leyden might enjoy the freedom of conscience? Behold the mighty regions over which, in peaceful conquest, . . . they have borne the banners of the cross!"--Speech delivered at Plymouth, Massachusetts, Dec. 22, 1824, page 11. {GC 440.2}

"And he had two horns like a lamb." The lamblike horns indicate youth, innocence, and gentleness, fitly representing the character of the United States when presented to the prophet as "coming up" in 1798. Among the Christian exiles who first fled to America and sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance were many who determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. Their views found place in the Declaration of Independence, which sets forth the great truth that "all men are created equal" and endowed with the inalienable right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." And the Constitution guarantees to the people the right of self-government, providing that representatives elected by the popular vote shall enact and administer the laws. Freedom of religious faith was also granted, every man being permitted to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience. Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity. The oppressed and downtrodden throughout Christendom have turned to this land with interest and hope. Millions have sought its shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth. {GC 441.1}

Question:

Do you now see where Ellen White compares of the rise of the United States with the rise of other nations?

[jamesonofthunder]

Historians will agree that this is indeed a "peaceful" nation, built on "peaceful principles". You're reading too much into her words I think.

It is very nice to see someone defend the Spirit of Prophecy, God bless you.

As for the rest of you who do not defend the Spirit of Prophecy...Why are You HERE?

If you don't believe that the Seventh Day Adventist Church was foretold in the prophecies of Revelation, called through the Great Disappointment, or that Mrs. White was sent by God to warn us for the last days, "for God will surely do nothing else He reveal it to His prophet first"...WHY ARE YOU HERE?

I don't mean to be aggressive, but the battle we are in IS aggressive. The SDA church is under attack.

I have seen a so called pastor come in and take over a beautiful church, selling it out from under the elderly congregation, changing the name to the EDGE and bringing Rock and Roll and Homosexual deaconesses, then after the conference let him get away with all of this and putting the church three million dollars into debt, when they wouldn't let him keep the tithe to keep his precious dream alive...He left admitting he never even was ordained into our church.

The battle is on now.

Our church is over run by half converted world-lings claiming their own light. But the chaff will blow away, and I would hate to be one of those who claims Lord Lord but is thrown into outer darkness... Just as those who try to destroy God's end time church will be, you better believe it.

So I ask again why are you here? Who sent you? The title of the web site has Adventist written in big letters that you can't miss. Are you on a mission to convert SDA's?

Do you think it is your mission to sow seeds of disrespect to a church that has spilled their blood and given all they have defending the word of God?

Ellen White was greater than a prophet, in deep humility and respect to the Holy word.

Shame on all of those who would do such a thing.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...I see no comparing of the rise of the United States with the rise of other nations such as the ones you cite. Once again John317, you, like Lysimachus, are trying to "massage" what Ellen White wrote to make it look like she is correct.

Then you're not reading very carefully.

Here are clear references to comparisons of the other nations:

Quote:

At this point another symbol is introduced. Says the prophet: "I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb." Verse 11. Both the appearance of this beast and the manner of its rise indicate that the nation which it represents is unlike those presented under the preceding symbols. The great kingdoms that have ruled the world were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when "the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." Daniel 7:2. In Revelation 17 an angel explained that waters represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." Revelation 17:15. Winds are a symbol of strife. The four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea represent the terrible scenes of conquest and revolution by which kingdoms have attained to power. {GC 439.3}

But

the beast with lamblike horns was seen "coming up out of the earth." Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World--that turbulent sea of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It must be sought in the Western Continent. {GC 440.1}

What nation of the New World was in 1798 rising into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, and attracting the attention of the world? The application of the symbol admits of no question. One nation, and only one, meets the specifications of this prophecy; it points unmistakably to the United States of America. Again and again the thought, almost the exact words, of the sacred writer has been unconsciously employed by the orator and the historian in describing the rise and growth of this nation. The beast was seen "coming up out of the earth;" and, according to the translators, the word here rendered "coming up" literally signifies "to grow or spring up as a plant." And, as we have seen, the nation must arise in territory previously unoccupied. A prominent writer, describing the rise of the United States, speaks of "the mystery of her coming forth from vacancy," and says: "Like a silent seed we grew into empire."--G. A. Townsend, The New World Compared With the Old, page 462. A European journal in 1850 spoke of the United States as a wonderful empire, which was "emerging," and "amid the silence of the earth daily adding to its power and pride." --The Dublin Nation. Edward Everett, in an oration on the Pilgrim founders of this nation, said: "Did they look for a retired spot, inoffensive for its obscurity, and safe in its remoteness, where the little church of Leyden might enjoy the freedom of conscience? Behold the mighty regions over which, in peaceful conquest, . . . they have borne the banners of the cross!"--Speech delivered at Plymouth, Massachusetts, Dec. 22, 1824, page 11. {GC 440.2}

"And he had two horns like a lamb." The lamblike horns indicate youth, innocence, and gentleness, fitly representing the character of the United States when presented to the prophet as "coming up" in 1798. Among the Christian exiles who first fled to America and sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance were many who determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. Their views found place in the Declaration of Independence, which sets forth the great truth that "all men are created equal" and endowed with the inalienable right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." And the Constitution guarantees to the people the right of self-government, providing that representatives elected by the popular vote shall enact and administer the laws. Freedom of religious faith was also granted, every man being permitted to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience. Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity. The oppressed and downtrodden throughout Christendom have turned to this land with interest and hope. Millions have sought its shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth. {GC 441.1}

Question:

Do you now see where Ellen White compares of the rise of the United States with the rise of other nations?

We weren't discussing the quote you give above.

I was pointing to the original quote cited by Lysimachus. That quote does not compare the US with other nations and therefore her opinions cited in those quotes do NOT COMPARE THE US WITH OTHER NATIONS RISE.

These quotes that you, John 317 cite above do nothing to make the quotes cited by myself and Lysimachus say something different.

Show from my quotes of Ellen White that she is accurate. You can't so you try and shift the emphasis. That does not work and it is not being truthful.

What Ellen White said in the Lysimachus/miz3 quotes is "wrong" and therefore is clearly an expression of Ellen White's opinion.

Stick to the original quotes.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Historians will agree that this is indeed a "peaceful" nation, built on "peaceful principles". You're reading too much into her words I think.

It is very nice to see someone defend the Spirit of Prophecy, God bless you.

As for the rest of you who do not defend the Spirit of Prophecy...Why are You HERE?

If you don't believe that the Seventh Day Adventist Church was foretold in the prophecies of Revelation, called through the Great Disappointment, or that Mrs. White was sent by God to warn us for the last days, "for God will surely do nothing else He reveal it to His prophet first"...WHY ARE YOU HERE?

I don't mean to be aggressive, but the battle we are in IS aggressive. The SDA church is under attack.

I have seen a so called pastor come in and take over a beautiful church, selling it out from under the elderly congregation, changing the name to the EDGE and bringing Rock and Roll and Homosexual deaconesses, then after the conference let him get away with all of this and putting the church three million dollars into debt, when they wouldn't let him keep the tithe to keep his precious dream alive...He left admitting he never even was ordained into our church.

The battle is on now.

Our church is over run by half converted world-lings claiming their own light. But the chaff will blow away, and I would hate to be one of those who claims Lord Lord but is thrown into outer darkness... Just as those who try to destroy God's end time church will be, you better believe it.

So I ask again why are you here? Who sent you? The title of the web site has Adventist written in big letters that you can't miss. Are you on a mission to convert SDA's?

Do you think it is your mission to sow seeds of disrespect to a church that has spilled their blood and given all they have defending the word of God?

Ellen White was greater than a prophet, in deep humility and respect to the Holy word.

Shame on all of those who would do such a thing.

Are you afraid the that the SDA Church .org and those of you SDA who believe passionately like you do are not able to stand up to the questioning and the scrutiny of your beliefs.

Are SDA beliefs that fragile? Are you afraid that those non SDA looking in and reading our discussions will find that the SDA Church .org belief system is predicated on lies, human opinion, human excuses for their 1844 disappointment, that SDA are being false when they say they are a Bible and Bible only church, that Ellen White and all her copying from human nonSDA sources (even from novels) will be exposed as not being as "pristine" as the SDA Church .org has tried to make her out to be, that Ellen White could not/did not follow her own so-called testimonies? Are you afraid that the SDA Church .org is riddled with leadership corruption through and through and that there are but few truly honest leaders of the Church?

Why are you sooooooo afraid?

[Lysimachus]

Here again is what Ellen White wrote:

"The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized--the United States." {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 5}"

Notice the underlined part. It is a clear statement. This clear statement is indeed false. The United States rose by engaging in a very bitter and bloody Revolution.

There are no statements in the quote, before the quote, and/or after the quote that give us any of "your clarifying" data. Thus, we have to conclude that "your clarifying data" is your own and not hers.

If Ellen White wanted to clarify what she meant she would have done so.

She didn't, so the statement stands as it is written.

Did Ellen White personally tell you what she meant by this statement so you could go out and clarify her words to the rest of the world?

If she didn't, which is exactly the case, then you are trying to clarify something you know nothing about.

Here is Ellen White's statement in full:

(the underlined part is what you quoted, the rest is the context)

"Under the symbols of the great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamblike horns, the earthly governments which would be especially engaged in trampling upon God’s law and persecuting His people, were presented to John. Their war is to be carried on till the close of time. The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, are represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days, only a remnant still exists. John speaks of them as those that “keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” {ST February 8, 1910, par. 3}

For many centuries, first through paganism and then through the Papacy, Satan exerted his powers to blot from the earth God’s faithful witnesses. Both heathen and papists were actuated by the same dragon spirit. They differed only in that the Romish apostate, making a pretense of serving God, was the more dangerous and cruel foe. Through the agency of Romanism., Satan took the world captive. The professed church of God was swept into the ranks of this delusion, and for more than a thousand years the true people of God suffered under the dragon’s ire. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 4}

A New Persecutor

At the time when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon’s voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, is represented by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized—the United States. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 5}

The “two horns like a lamb” well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,—Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 6}

But the stern tracings of the prophetic pencil reveal a change in this peaceful scene. The beast with lamblike horns speaks with the voice of a dragon, and “exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him.” Prophecy declares that he will say to them that dwell on the earth, “that they should make an image to the beast,” and that it will cause “all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Thus Protestantism is to follow in the steps of the Papacy. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 7}"

Again there is nothing here of what you say. This cannot be an "inspired" statement from God because the United States did not arise peacefully.

Nothing here contradicts what I stated. You just read it wrong. That's all there is to it. Take it, or leave it.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Here again is what Ellen White wrote:

"The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized--the United States." {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 5}"

Notice the underlined part. It is a clear statement. This clear statement is indeed false. The United States rose by engaging in a very bitter and bloody Revolution.

There are no statements in the quote, before the quote, and/or after the quote that give us any of "your clarifying" data. Thus, we have to conclude that "your clarifying data" is your own and not hers.

If Ellen White wanted to clarify what she meant she would have done so.

She didn't, so the statement stands as it is written.

Did Ellen White personally tell you what she meant by this statement so you could go out and clarify her words to the rest of the world?

If she didn't, which is exactly the case, then you are trying to clarify something you know nothing about.

Here is Ellen White's statement in full:

(the underlined part is what you quoted, the rest is the context)

"Under the symbols of the great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamblike horns, the earthly governments which would be especially engaged in trampling upon God’s law and persecuting His people, were presented to John. Their war is to be carried on till the close of time. The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, are represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days, only a remnant still exists. John speaks of them as those that “keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” {ST February 8, 1910, par. 3}

For many centuries, first through paganism and then through the Papacy, Satan exerted his powers to blot from the earth God’s faithful witnesses. Both heathen and papists were actuated by the same dragon spirit. They differed only in that the Romish apostate, making a pretense of serving God, was the more dangerous and cruel foe. Through the agency of Romanism., Satan took the world captive. The professed church of God was swept into the ranks of this delusion, and for more than a thousand years the true people of God suffered under the dragon’s ire. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 4}

A New Persecutor

At the time when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon’s voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, is represented by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized—the United States. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 5}

The “two horns like a lamb” well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,—Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 6}

But the stern tracings of the prophetic pencil reveal a change in this peaceful scene. The beast with lamblike horns speaks with the voice of a dragon, and “exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him.” Prophecy declares that he will say to them that dwell on the earth, “that they should make an image to the beast,” and that it will cause “all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Thus Protestantism is to follow in the steps of the Papacy. {ST February 8, 1910, par. 7}"

Again there is nothing here of what you say. This cannot be an "inspired" statement from God because the United States did not arise peacefully.

Nothing here contradicts what I stated. You just read it wrong. That's all there is to it. Take it, or leave it.

So you agree that Ellen White when she wrote this statement was "not inspired" and that what she wrote was just her own opinion?

[Gibs]

Miz3,

You make some very strong and obvious points, it's time to not be so pharisee-itic and look at ourselves and see the troubles that need correcting.

Jamesonofthunder,

Wondering what Your take on the "New Age Theology" of salvation that has come into the church in mostly the last 55 years.

And what is your take on the meeting of Walter Martin and Ken Samples and how our leading men handled that one at CHC Loma Linda Ca. Chc I think is campus hill.

I think the leading men buckled and sold out Adventism.

the date of the old vhs video I have is 1/26/89 and the meeting was held 10:00 - 12:00 AM and 1:00 - 3:00 PM

Sold down the river, makes me sick at my stomach. The falling away since that time is phenomenal.

All things especially about prophecy were far from perfected and the same on some other topics that need ironed out, the reform never was completed, Satan got into it mixed in error and it stopped.

It could be righted yet but would be the biggest upset seen in church world history. So I predict it won't happen.

The picture is a very grim one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

So you agree that Ellen White when she wrote this statement was "not inspired" and that what she wrote was just her own opinion?

Nope. I believe it was all inspired.

[miz3]

Lysimachus after listening to Dennis Priebe I don't think I can take you seriously at all anymore.

Such views are not clinching at all. They are just plain embarrassing.

My goodness, NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE BIBLE TEXT.

What is happening to the SDA Church .org? They have elevated Ellen White above Scripture.

[dialoguewithus]

Regarding the supposed peaceful rise of the United States, what would Mexico, England, and the native population think about such a claim? You're right, miz3, many SDAs place more weight on EGW than on NT & OT.

[ClubV12]

Miz3, no worries about Lysimachus. I haven't taken YOU seriously for months. Your views, as you put it, "are just plain embarrassing".

[Gibs]

To all, In SDAdventism there is a lot of blief differences. For one and with me I can not and will not go along with the historic view of prophecy.

Also here we are with most SDA's so I do post EGW statements and I don't do that unless I understand the same and can show it with the scripture.

Today there is such an extreme difference in SDA beliefs that most sit in the pews more or less with a helpless opinion and just say, oh well, or I just don't care anymore.

Can needed reform ever come into the church with that attitude? Never. The only thing that got "theistic evolution theology" rescinded was the amount of pressure put on La Sierra and they made the move to have it abolished. It's a move that needs done on a lot of issues.

Dennis Priebie is one of the few left in the system that needs to be heard and headed, true to the truth as the needle is to the pole.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

The church is very clear on what they believe Gib's. The 28 fundamental beliefs and the church manual leave no doubt as to where Adventism stands.

I quit looking at the people some time ago, they will disappoint and distract you everytime. Look again and look a little higher, you will see the perfect harmony within the church.

[Lysimachus]

The United States rose on peaceful principles of freedom.

That's the bottom line.

Ellen White was right.

Whether you like it or not miz3.

[skyblue888]

Regarding the supposed peaceful rise of the United States, what would Mexico, England, and the native population think about such a claim? You're right, miz3, many SDAs place more weight on EGW than on NT & OT.

From The Great Controversy, 440:

"But the beast with lamblike horns was seen 'coming up out of the earth.' Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World--that turbulent sea of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It must be sought in the Western Continent.

What nation of the New World was in 1798 rising into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, and attracting the attention of the world? The application of the symbol admits of no question. One nation, and only one, meets the specifications of this prophecy; it points unmistakably to the United States of America. Again and again the thought, almost the exact words, of the sacred writer has been unconsciously employed by the orator and the historian in describing the rise and growth of this nation. The beast was seen "coming up out of the earth;" and, according to the translators, the word here rendered "coming up" literally signifies "to grow or spring up as a plant."

And, as we have seen, the nation must arise in territory previously unoccupied. A prominent writer, describing the rise of the United States, speaks of "the mystery of her coming forth from vacancy," and says: "Like a silent seed we grew into empire."--G. A. Townsend, The New World Compared With the Old, page 462.

A European journal in 1850 spoke of the United States as a wonderful empire, which was "emerging," and "amid the silence of the earth daily adding to its power and pride." --The Dublin Nation.

Edward Everett, in an oration on the Pilgrim founders of this nation, said: "Did they look for a retired spot, inoffensive for its obscurity, and safe in its remoteness, where the little church of Leyden might enjoy the freedom of conscience? Behold the mighty regions over which, in peaceful conquest, . . . they have borne the banners of the cross!"--Speech delivered at Plymouth, Massachusetts, Dec. 22, 1824, page 11.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: dialoguewithus

Regarding the supposed peaceful rise of the United States, what would Mexico, England, and the native population think about such a claim? You're right, miz3, many SDAs place more weight on EGW than on NT & OT.

From The Great Controversy, 440:

"But the beast with lamblike horns was seen 'coming up out of the earth.' Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World--that turbulent sea of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It must be sought in the Western Continent.

What nation of the New World was in 1798 rising into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, and attracting the attention of the world? The application of the symbol admits of no question. One nation, and only one, meets the specifications of this prophecy; it points unmistakably to the United States of America. Again and again the thought, almost the exact words, of the sacred writer has been unconsciously employed by the orator and the historian in describing the rise and growth of this nation. The beast was seen "coming up out of the earth;" and, according to the translators, the word here rendered "coming up" literally signifies "to grow or spring up as a plant."

And, as we have seen, the nation must arise in territory previously unoccupied. A prominent writer, describing the rise of the United States, speaks of "the mystery of her coming forth from vacancy," and says: "Like a silent seed we grew into empire."--G. A. Townsend, The New World Compared With the Old, page 462.

A European journal in 1850 spoke of the United States as a wonderful empire, which was "emerging," and "amid the silence of the earth daily adding to its power and pride." --The Dublin Nation.

Edward Everett, in an oration on the Pilgrim founders of this nation, said: "Did they look for a retired spot, inoffensive for its obscurity, and safe in its remoteness, where the little church of Leyden might enjoy the freedom of conscience? Behold the mighty regions over which, in peaceful conquest, . . . they have borne the banners of the cross!"--Speech delivered at Plymouth, Massachusetts, Dec. 22, 1824, page 11.

I wish I had the time I once used to to perform research like this! Kudos to you Sky. I remember reading dozens of quotes from historians and men of high rank in the United States write concerning America's peaceful rise, but you lose motivation to invest all that time to provide such resources to sheep who are not hungry.

When I spend hours and hours providing resources for miz3, I feel sometimes as though I were casting my pearls before the swine. I wish it didn't feel that way.

[miz3]

The United States rose on peaceful principles of freedom.

That's the bottom line.

Ellen White was right.

Whether you like it or not miz3.

Ok, I am not against you believing what you want. However, that of itself does not make you correct when you assert that the United States rose in a "peaceful way". It is FACT that the United States rose by very violent means.

You can have Ellen White as your ULTIMATE AUTHORITY for theology, history, etc.

I will take the BIBLE AND THE BIBLE ONLY AS MY ULTIMATE AUTHORITY.

[miz3]

"But the beast with lamblike horns was seen 'coming up out of the earth.' Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World--that turbulent sea of "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." It must be sought in the Western Continent.

The FACTS are:

1. The American Revolution was indeed and "overthrow" of British power in the New World (the establishment).

2. The "territory" was indeed "occupied". You think the Native Americans were just a figment the Europeans' imagination when they came here to settle. In fact the New World around the time of the American Revolution was "occupied" by Native Americans, the Spanish, the French, the Russians, and the English.

Thus, Ellen White/writings got it WRONG.

Ellen White/writings get it WRONG:

1. In interpreting Revelation chapter thirteen as the United States.

2. In her statement of fact and analysis of the rise of United States (history).

In the second point immediately above, Ellen White and her editors "copied the wrong historical facts".

Yes, Ellen White copied a great deal of her facts and expressions. She did not get much of her stuff direct from God but rather from other human sources the same as you and I.

That is why like in this case, Ellen White got the FACTS WRONG.