The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[Gibs]

Samie, let's have your view, you got a better one? Let's have it.

The book was before the foundation of the world but doesn't state that I know of when it was sealed but we know it became sealed and He only is found worthy to take off those seals.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Samie, let's have your view, you got a better one? Let's have it.

The book was before the foundation of the world but doesn't state that I know of when it was sealed but we know it became sealed and He only is found worthy to take off those seals.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

My view:

Contingent upon the supreme sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, names of ALL descendants of Adam & Eve were written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. When a man dies judgment is meted out whether to blot his name from the book of life or not. Christ assures the overcomers will not be blotted out. When Christ returns to reward every man according to his deeds, all whose names remain in the book of life will be ushered to heaven and inherit life eternal; all others will be rewarded with and made to suffer the wrath of God which is the 7 last plagues, and finally after the millenium will be thrown into the lake of fire.

[John317]

Contingent upon the supreme sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, names of ALL descendants of Adam & Eve were written in the book of life since the foundation of the world.

Are you sure of this? Where do you find evidence of this in Scripture?

Originally Posted By: Samie

When a man dies judgment is meted out whether to blot his name from the book of life or not.

Upon what basis is it determined that a person's name will not be blotted out of the book of life?

Does God or Jesus Christ merely tell the universe to accept His decision? Or do other intelligent beings "investigate" the records of people's lives? If not, why the books of record?

Originally Posted By: Samie

Christ assures the overcomers will not be blotted out...

I agree with you.

But what does "overcomer" mean? Who are they? How is it determined whether a person is an overcomer or not?

[John317]

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

How else would he know to whom to reward?

Matt. 22: 11-- the parable of the wedding feast-- shows that there's an examination of people's characters prior to Christ's return.

[John317]

....17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more

If all sins have been forgiven and taken away, and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins, what then remains to be cleansed from the sanctuary?

Excellent question! Hope you continue to take part in the discussion. We will study the question in depth and seek to find the Bible answer to it.

[John317]

John317, I just sent a link to this page to a pastor I talked with for about 10 minutes PLUS sold him a copy of Bradley Williams' book.

Your thread here was timely!

Thank you.

I would very much like to "see" the pastor you sent the link to taking part in the discussion.

[John317]

Some Bible facts:

1. All sins - past, present, future - were forgiven on the cross.

...3. In the New Covenant, God does not and refuses to remember any sin no matter how hard one tries to remind Him about anyone of them.

Hebrews 10:16-17

Quote:

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more

If all sins have been forgiven and taken away, and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins, what then remains to be cleansed from the sanctuary?

Consider the following verses:

Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

NOTE: Peter did not preach that their sins were already forgiven, prior to repentance and faith in Christ. Such a teaching is never found in the preaching of the gospel in the book of Acts.

Acts 3:19-21

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, [in order] that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; [20] And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: [21] Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 3:26

"God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness."

Matthew 7:23

And then will I [Jesus] declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

NOTE: God definitely knows and remembers people's wickedness. He knows when people turn away from wickedness and when they continue in their wickedness.

Acts 12:23

Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him [Herod] down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

NOTE: It is obvious that Herod's sins were not forgiven and wiped away, since an angel of God struck him down because of them.

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

NOTE: God's Word teaches that we need to confess our sins and that IF we confess our sins, Jesus is faithful to forgive us of our sins. It wouldn't say this if all sins have already been forgiven.

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—-to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. [17] All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

NOTE: Don't these verses make it plain that not all sins have already (in the past) been forgiven and taken away?

1 John 3:5

You know that he appeared to take away our sins, and in him there is no sin.

NOTE: Jesus came in order to take away our sins, but not all sins are yet taken away. Many people don't want Jesus to bear their sins away. Jesus will not force people to give Him their sins for Him to carry. It is our choice whether to surrender them to Him. Otherwise, when He comes to destroy sin, Christ will also have to destroy those who continue to cherish their sins.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Contingent upon the supreme sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, names of ALL descendants of Adam & Eve were written in the book of life since the foundation of the world.

Are you sure of this? Where do you find evidence of this in Scripture?

[Kevin H]

Some Bible facts:

1. All sins - past, present, future - were forgiven on the cross.

Colossians 2:13-14

Quote:

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

2. Current sins committed are not imputed against man since these had been forgiven and man reconciled / atoned on the cross ('reconciliation' and 'atonement' are from the same Greek 'katallage').

2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Quote:

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

Romans 5:10-11

Quote:

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

3. In the New Covenant, God does not and refuses to remember any sin no matter how hard one tries to remind Him about anyone of them.

Hebrews 10:16-17

Quote:

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more

If all sins have been forgiven and taken away, and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins, what then remains to be cleansed from the sanctuary?

I'm sorry but this shows that you do not understand the Investigative Judgment, which is not contrary to the evidence you shared, and thus your post is like if you asked the question "Are you still beating your wife?" there is something about the presuposition to this question that has something wrong to it. The question is are you willing to be fair to what we really believe or do you have a spirit of "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts."

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Some Bible facts:

1. All sins - past, present, future - were forgiven on the cross.

...3. In the New Covenant, God does not and refuses to remember any sin no matter how hard one tries to remind Him about anyone of them.

Hebrews 10:16-17 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more

If all sins have been forgiven and taken away, and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins, what then remains to be cleansed from the sanctuary?

Consider the following verses:

Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

NOTE: Peter did not preach that their sins were already forgiven, prior to repentance and faith in Christ. Such a teaching is never found in the preaching of the gospel in the book of Acts.

[Samie]

Why forgiveness before repentance? I am reposting my post #517381.

Quote:

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Obviously the world is dead otherwise Christ would not have given it life. But why is the world dead?

Quote:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Clearly, sin made the world dead. Unless sin is forgiven and taken away the world remains dead. And how can the dead repent? If it were true that man need to first repent before his sins can be forgiven, then he can never be forgiven because he cannot repent yet being dead.

The fact that men are now capable of repenting is proof enough we had been previously made alive and therefore already forgiven.

Quote:

Colossians 2:13 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

[Samie]

Matthew 7:23

And then will I [Jesus] declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

NOTE: God definitely knows and remembers people's wickedness. He knows when people turn away from wickedness and when they continue in their wickedness.

So Hebrews 10:17 "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" does not speak truth to you?

[Samie]

Acts 12:23

Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him [Herod] down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

NOTE: It is obvious that Herod's sins were not forgiven and wiped away, since an angel of God struck him down because of them.

The verse explicitly identifies the reason why Herod was struck down: Herod did not give God the glory. NOT that his sins were not forgiven; that would be assumption.

Why single out Herod if it were true that many others have their sins not likewise forgiven on the cross?

[Samie]

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

NOTE: God's Word teaches that we need to confess our sins and that IF we confess our sins, Jesus is faithful to forgive us of our sins. It wouldn't say this if all sins have already been forgiven.

Confessing is acknowledging sin committed. But the problem is whether God hears our confession if the sin we are confessing had not been forgiven yet:

ESV Isaiah 59:2 but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

The fact that God now hears our confession proves He had forgiven us.

[Samie]

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—-to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. [17] All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

NOTE: Don't these verses make it plain that not all sins have already (in the past) been forgiven and taken away?

1 John 3:5

You know that he appeared to take away our sins, and in him there is no sin.

NOTE: Jesus came in order to take away our sins, but not all sins are yet taken away. Many people don't want Jesus to bear their sins away. Jesus will not force people to give Him their sins for Him to carry. It is our choice whether to surrender them to Him. Otherwise, when He comes to destroy sin, Christ will also have to destroy those who continue to cherish their sins.

[Gibs]

Samie,

That book sealed with the seven seals is the book of life, Rev. 20:12 reveals that and while it may be sealed to all else it no doubt isn't to Him. It probably isn't a "book" or "scroll" as we know one, but His "computer", His way of keeping records of all there is, not just the book of life. The important notation is, that it was written before the foundation of the world and all the contents are not revealed until that last seal is taken off. I want to be there as I find it will be a great event.

I don't refute the 2300 years ending in 1844 but I am not with the SDA interpretation of Dan. 8: as I find the whole vision falls after that date so the historic view that is held I can't buy. The 17't/h verse is convincing enough,

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Then we have verse 19, Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

"Indignation" used there means the "last end of God's furious wrath with sin", and the meaning even says "frothing", His wrath is kindled High!

It was a vision to let known what would be in the last end time , but then goes on and tells him, "at the time appointed the end shall be". That time only the Father knew when Jesus was here but I doubt that Jesus doesn't know it now.

Then put verse 1 in context with verses 17, 19 and the "after" could be rendered as the "last end part" in paraphrase.

Da 8:1 ¶ In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, "after that which appeared unto me at the first."

What appeared to him before was the vision of chap. seven.

I may or may not lay out the delination of the chap. sometime but not too anxious to do it.

I just state, His Blessings to all who will read and study with and open mind and prayerfull spirit to learn of Him.

Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Samie you have nailed it.

[Kevin H]

Samie: It is difficult to talk to you because of you being so full of misunderstandings and false presupositions about the Investigative Judgment. And you seem to be happy in your misunderstandings and you have yet to convince me that you don't have the spirit of "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts."

[miz3]

Samie: It is difficult to talk to you because of you being so full of misunderstandings and false presupositions about the Investigative Judgment. And you seem to be happy in your misunderstandings and you have yet to convince me that you don't have the spirit of "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts."

That is typical of those who use Ellen White, outside sources, instead of like Samie using the Bible and the Bible only.

Unfortunately those who use almost everything else but the Bible are confused when the Bible and the Bible only is used.

[Gibs]

Miz3, Jamie,

The judgment that takes place at the great white throne, Rev 20:11,12 is after the saints are raised alive and from the grave at His second coming. So you tell us what this one is about.

As was noted before His reward is with Him when He comes, Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

You see He has separated the sheep from the goats and yet there is to be a coming judgment.

And so what say you took place of this prophecy and when and your reasons why,

Da 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Some Bible facts:

1. All sins - past, present, future - were forgiven on the cross.

Colossians 2:13-14

Quote:

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

2. Current sins committed are not imputed against man since these had been forgiven and man reconciled / atoned on the cross ('reconciliation' and 'atonement' are from the same Greek 'katallage').

2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Quote:

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

Romans 5:10-11

Quote:

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

3. In the New Covenant, God does not and refuses to remember any sin no matter how hard one tries to remind Him about anyone of them.

Hebrews 10:16-17

Quote:

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more

If all sins have been forgiven and taken away, and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins, what then remains to be cleansed from the sanctuary?

Samie, you're misinterpreting these verses because they can only be understood in light of other passages.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26)

"It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."(Hebrews 9:23)

This passage is very clear that "sacrifices" (plural) is a presently ACTIVE (after Christ's death).

Therefore, the verses that you quoted above can only be understood in the sense of humanity corporately, or in a legal sense for all men. In other words, legally speaking, the sins of all men were forgiven and reconciled, but now men must take HOLD of that reconciliation as Christ mediates His blood on their behalf. If you're not careful, you can come across as though all men have been justified and saved.

Your quoting of those verses is no different than the Universalist which quotes a whole bunch of texts to try to prove that "all men" will be saved, and nobody will go to hell. You violate the principles of "scripture with scripture" to come to an accurate understanding of the Atonement, and how it works.

Romans 3:23-25:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."

The entire human race was Christ's purchased possession. The sins that are "future", are those sins that will "be past". In other words, our "past sins" were once our "future sins", and once those "future sins" are repented of, those "future sins" become "past sins". Get it? In other words, Christ's payment is sufficient for ALL FUTURE SINS THAT WILL CONFESSED AND REPENTED OF. And at THAT point, they become "past sins".

If Atonement was over, no such provision would be available. It is the existence of Atonement that provides Grace. Grace cannot exist without ongoing Atonement in heaven. Impossible! Once Atonement is over, GRACE is OVER.

[Lysimachus]

Scritures explicitly say all sins were forgiven:

ESV Colossians 2:13

But other scriptures clarify. Just a little advice: You have a strong tendency to build your theology on isolated texts without including the totality of the Bible. This is not how we establish sound doctrine. Doctrine cannot be formed on the basis of single isolated texts. Every text must be qualified by other texts in order to help us understand what that text means.

Correct doctrine is formed by employing precept upon precept, line up on line, here a little and there a little. (Isaiah 28:9-13).

We want to avoid what is called the "One Johnny Doctrine" syndrome. The meaning of this syndrome is as follows:

Originally Posted By: One Johnny Doctrine

A mentally incompetent individual who's whole belief of theology stems from only one text in the Bible. These type of people will attempt to "show boat" their own understanding of this one text in the form of questioning others about their understanding of the particular text or doctrine, and if the person being questioned by the johnny does not hold a position in agreement with him, the johnny will disregard any and all positions held by the other person as being false no matter what the position is, or how much truth is contained in it. You will normally find One Doctrine Johnnies in religious blogs posted on the internet, or in religious "chat rooms".

You cannot spell out your theology on a single text (or even a FEW) without allowing other texts to be modifiers and qualifiers.

Notice that Paul says "having forgiven all OUR trespasses". Did you catch that? He's talking to Christians who have REPENTED, "OUR".

You are not forgiven until you repent.

This is what really gets me, people like you get TECHNICAL with letters and phrases rather than GRASPING THOUGHTS from the writers.

Many times we say "we all love it here". Does that mean everyone loves it there? NO. It's just a general expression, but it is not being qualified. The qualification is provided by #1. Common sense (something I encourage you to exercise), and #2. All those who have been there.

[Lysimachus]

Notice:

"And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Notice 2 things:

1. There is "blood" involved. Which blood? The blood of Christ.

2. This blood of Christ is PRESENTLY "active". Blood was only active while Atonement was in place. After the lamb's were sacrificed, the sacrificial atonement was complete, but not the mediatorial atonement. Scripture is UNEQUIVOCALLY clear. Christ's blood is presently ACTIVE, as it "SPEAKETH". The applicatory benefits of Atonement are NOT complete. If it were, probation would be closed, and Christ would be doing nothing in heaven. What's He waiting for then?

[Gibs]

The door is still open to Christ ministering in the Heavenly Sanctuary and as long as He don't close it forgiveness is possible with TRUE repentance. At repentance all past sin is forgiven and if one slipped and fell back in his old wallow he would have to go back and do repentance again and can as long as that door is open, but be careful, it won't be open much longer. It may be about to close for those in His camp now, those who have claimed Christ. For the SDA here is a quote,

" But clearer light came with the investigation of the sanctuary question. They now saw that they were correct in believing that the end of the 2300 days in 1844 marked an important crisis. But while it was true that that door of hope and mercy by which men had for eighteen hundred years found access to God was closed, another door was opened, and forgiveness of sins was offered to men through the intercession of Christ in the most holy. One part of his ministration had closed, only to give place to another. There was still an “open door” to the heavenly sanctuary where Christ was ministering in the sinner's behalf". {GC88 429.2}

Those who are not SDA's,

Re 3:7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Re 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Once saved, always saved is not Biblical.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

The door is still open to Christ ministering in the Heavenly Sanctuary and as long as He don't close it forgiveness is possible with TRUE repentance. At repentance all past sin is forgiven and if one slipped and fell back in his old wallow he would have to go back and do repentance again and can as long as that door is open, but be careful, it won't be open much longer. It may be about to close for those in His camp now, those who have claimed Christ. For the SDA here is a quote,

" But clearer light came with the investigation of the sanctuary question. They now saw that they were correct in believing that the end of the 2300 days in 1844 marked an important crisis. But while it was true that that door of hope and mercy by which men had for eighteen hundred years found access to God was closed, another door was opened, and forgiveness of sins was offered to men through the intercession of Christ in the most holy. One part of his ministration had closed, only to give place to another. There was still an “open door” to the heavenly sanctuary where Christ was ministering in the sinner's behalf". {GC88 429.2}

Those who are not SDA's,

Re 3:7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Re 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Once saved, always saved is not Biblical.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

What puzzle's me Gibs is that you have such a good mind on your shoulders, yet it's so disheartening and disappointing that while you highly value the texts and EGW passages above, you still tend to get selective, and throw out certain things established by our Adventist pioneers. You disagree with Ellen White in some portions, change dates around, and modify the judgment slightly. You tend to rely on your own private interpretation on certain texts rather than just accepting that while there are some things you don't fully understand, you have trust and faith that God lead the Advent movement to come to the correct understanding of the Investigative Judgment.