The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[Lysimachus]

1. God does not "investigate" because He already knows. You "investigate" WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW.

No idiot "investigates" what s/he already knows.

However people do "investigate" things they do NOT KNOW.

2. No John317 I do not agree that the Bible teaches that God "investigates".

You are trying to mix two different processes. "Testing" is a whole different process. God does "test".

However God DOES NOT INVESTIGATE.

3. God already knows people in every way so He also knows what reward they deserve. No test is necessary for Him to know how to "reward" people.

Man John317 are you ever mixed up about the Bible and what it actually says. Again, this is because you follow the "human centric" view of the Bible. By the way Ellen White also follows the "human centric" view of the Bible.

The texts that John317 gave should have settled the score, but I'll give you the whole shabang to reinforce this point even more:

"And all the churches shall know that I am He who searches [Greek, ereunao-investigates] minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works" (Revelation 2:23)

"The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord is on his heavenly throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine [bachan, investigates] them. The Lord examines [bachan, investigates] the righteous" (Psalms 11:4,5, NIV))

"We have been approved by God ... who examines [or investigates] our hearts" (1 Thess 2:4, NAS).

"He who judges [inquires, searches, examines, investigates] me is the Lord ... who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts" (1 Cor 4:4,5, NKJV)

"I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve" (Jeremiah 17:10, NIV)

"Oh ... establish the just; for the righteous God tests [or investigates] the hearts and minds" (Psalms 7:9 NKJV).

"I know also, my God, that You test [bachan, investigate] the heart and have pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of my heart I have willingly offered all these things; and now with joy I have seen Your people, who are present here to offer willingly to You." (1 Chronicles 29:17 NKJV)

"What is man ... That You should visit him every morning, and test [bachan, investigate] him every moment: (Job 7:17,18 NKJV)?

"But He knows the way that I take; when He tested [bachan, investigated] me, I shall come forth as gold" (Job 23:10 NKJV).

"O righteous God, who searches [bachan, investigates] minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure" (Psalm 7:9, NIV)

"Though you probe [bachan, investigate] my heart and examine me at night, though you test me, you will find morning; I have resolve that my mouth will not sin" (Psalm 17:3, NIV)

"Examine [bachan, investigate] me, O Lord, and try me; test my mind and my heart" (Psalms 26:2 NAS, cf. Psalm 139:23).

"For You, O God, have tested [bachan, investigated] us; you have refined us as silver is refined" (Psalms 66:10 NKJV).

"The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold, but the Lord tests [bachan, the hearts" (Proverbs 17:13).

"Therefore this is what the Lord Almighty says: 'See, I will refine and test [bachan, investigates] them, for what else can I do but of the sin of my people?'" (Jeremiah 9:7, NIV)

"but, O Lord of hosts, you who judge righteously, testing [bachan, investigating] the mind and the heart" (Jeremiah 11:20, NKJV).

"But You, O Lord, know me: you have seen me, and You have tested [bachan, investigated] my heart toward you" (Jeremiah 12:3 NKJV).

"I the Lord search [chaqar] the heart and examine [bachan, investigate] the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve" (Jeremiah 17:10, NIV)

""Now He who searches [ereunao, investigates] the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Romans 8:27, NKV).

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable [or, not open to investigation, anexereunetos] are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor'" (Romans 11:33, 34).

"But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches [ereunao, investigates], all things, yes, the deep things of God" (1 Cor. 2:10 NKJV).

"Of this salvation the prophets have inquired [ekzeteo] and searched carefully [or investigated, exereunao], who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching [or, investigating] what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow" (1 Peter 1:10, 11, NKJV).

"Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches [or investigates] the hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds" (Revelation 2:23, NIV).

Thanks to the book by Bradley R. Williams, entitled "The Silencing of Satan" for discovering the above valuable treasures.

If our anti-SDA brothers and sisters and critics of our doctrines would make up their mind and take out time to read the books we recommend, perhaps just maybe that would discover that our Adventist doctrines are not based on flimsy or poor research.

Once again, I've said it before, and I'll say it again....

When Ellen White said...

"Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid." (1 SM 206)....

....she meant EXACTLY what she said!

I know people like Miz3 refuse to believe that she knew what she was talking about.

but I'll say again....and again, and again....

....she meant EXACTLY what she said....

....because she KNEW that she KNEW....

...and she KNEW that the Lord was with us and lead us to these DIVINELY appointed theological and prophetic interpretations of Scripture!

Like TheForerunner777 always says...."whether you LIKE it or NOT, the TRUTH is the TRUTH!"

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...1. God does not "investigate" because He already knows. You "investigate" WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW.

No idiot "investigates" what s/he already knows.

However people do "investigate" things they do NOT KNOW.

2. No John317 I do not agree that the Bible teaches that God "investigates".

You are trying to mix two different processes. "Testing" is a whole different process. God does "test".

However God DOES NOT INVESTIGATE.

But the Bible itself contains overwhelming evidence that God does indeed test, or investigate, people's hearts and lives. The Greek word in the NT is the same word, ereunao, used in modern Greece to describe a police investigation.

For instance:

Rev. 2:23:... all the churches shall know that I am he which searches [investigates] [Gk ereunao] men's inmost hearts: and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

NOTE: Observe that God searches/investigates the hearts of people. Notice also that this search or investigation is in the context of "giving to everyone according to their works."

Jeremiah 17:10: I the LORD search [Heb chaqar, examine intimately] the heart, and examine [bachan, investigate]the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, [and] according to what his deeds deserve.(NIV)

NOTE: What is the difference between examining intimately and investigating? No real difference, is there?

Psalm 11:4-5

The Lord is in his holy temple;

the Lord's throne is in heaven;

his eyes see, his eyelids test (bachan-- investigates), the children of man.

[5] The Lord tests (bachan--investigates)

the righteous

Jeremiah 20:12

O Lord of hosts, who examine (bachan, investigate) the righteous,

and probe the heart and the mind (NIV)

1. Revelation 2:3.

a. This text is not talking about an Investigative Judgment.

b. The word "searches" is different from the word "test" and both of these are different from the word "investigate". You need to watch your linguistics. You are being very sloppy in trying to make words equal that are NOT EQUAL.

c. God is not "searching" in order to find something new.

d. God is telling human beings in this text that He, God, knows what is in heart. That's it.

You cannot use this text or others like it to try and "frame" an Investigative Judgment.

Again John317 you are just grasping at any text like grasping for straws when you have "nothing", "absolutely nothing".

These are desperation tactics on your part.

2. Jeremiah 17:10 the same as above. As are your texts Psalm 11:4-5; Jeremiah 20:12.

a. None of these texts say anything about an Investigative Judgment.

b. Your words "test", "examine intimately", "see", etc. etc. are not synonyms of the word "investigate".

You cannot just substitute one for the other.

This is a very nifty tactic John317 in an effort to try and use "synonyms" to make your case. But it won't work. We are not some "stupid", "ignorant" children who are lead by such nefarious tactics.

In the texts you cited these words are not synonyms and that is that. Try something else because this tactic is dead.

Thus the Bible does not contain "overwhelming evidence" that God "investigates" people's hearts.

God "tests", God "sees", God "examines", God etc. etc. but these are not the same as "investigate".

"Investigate" is a whole different animal John317. Surely you know this but then when someone has an "illegitimate" doctrine they will "try" and "do" almost anything to try and make it "legitimate".

We are not buying what you are illegitimately selling.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. God does not "investigate" because He already knows. You "investigate" WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW.

No idiot "investigates" what s/he already knows.

However people do "investigate" things they do NOT KNOW.

2. No John317 I do not agree that the Bible teaches that God "investigates".

You are trying to mix two different processes. "Testing" is a whole different process. God does "test".

However God DOES NOT INVESTIGATE.

3. God already knows people in every way so He also knows what reward they deserve. No test is necessary for Him to know how to "reward" people.

Man John317 are you ever mixed up about the Bible and what it actually says. Again, this is because you follow the "human centric" view of the Bible. By the way Ellen White also follows the "human centric" view of the Bible.

The texts that John317 gave should have settled the score, but I'll give you the whole shabang to reinforce this point even more:

"And all the churches shall know that I am He who searches [Greek, ereunao-investigates] minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works" (Revelation 2:23)

"The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord is on his heavenly throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine [bachan, investigates] them. The Lord examines [bachan, investigates] the righteous" (Psalms 11:4,5, NIV))

"We have been approved by God ... who examines [or investigates] our hearts" (1 Thess 2:4, NAS).

"He who judges [inquires, searches, examines, investigates] me is the Lord ... who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts" (1 Cor 4:4,5, NKJV)

"I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve" (Jeremiah 17:10, NIV)

"Oh ... establish the just; for the righteous God tests [or investigates] the hearts and minds" (Psalms 7:9 NKJV).

"I know also, my God, that You test [bachan, investigate] the heart and have pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of my heart I have willingly offered all these things; and now with joy I have seen Your people, who are present here to offer willingly to You." (1 Chronicles 29:17 NKJV)

"What is man ... That You should visit him every morning, and test [bachan, investigate] him every moment: (Job 7:17,18 NKJV)?

"But He knows the way that I take; when He tested [bachan, investigated] me, I shall come forth as gold" (Job 23:10 NKJV).

"O righteous God, who searches [bachan, investigates] minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure" (Psalm 7:9, NIV)

"Though you probe [bachan, investigate] my heart and examine me at night, though you test me, you will find morning; I have resolve that my mouth will not sin" (Psalm 17:3, NIV)

"Examine [bachan, investigate] me, O Lord, and try me; test my mind and my heart" (Psalms 26:2 NAS, cf. Psalm 139:23).

"For You, O God, have tested [bachan, investigated] us; you have refined us as silver is refined" (Psalms 66:10 NKJV).

"The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold, but the Lord tests [bachan, the hearts" (Proverbs 17:13).

"Therefore this is what the Lord Almighty says: 'See, I will refine and test [bachan, investigates] them, for what else can I do but of the sin of my people?'" (Jeremiah 9:7, NIV)

"but, O Lord of hosts, you who judge righteously, testing [bachan, investigating] the mind and the heart" (Jeremiah 11:20, NKJV).

"But You, O Lord, know me: you have seen me, and You have tested [bachan, investigated] my heart toward you" (Jeremiah 12:3 NKJV).

"I the Lord search [chaqar] the heart and examine [bachan, investigate] the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve" (Jeremiah 17:10, NIV)

""Now He who searches [ereunao, investigates] the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Romans 8:27, NKV).

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable [or, not open to investigation, anexereunetos] are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor'" (Romans 11:33, 34).

"But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches [ereunao, investigates], all things, yes, the deep things of God" (1 Cor. 2:10 NKJV).

"Of this salvation the prophets have inquired [ekzeteo] and searched carefully [or investigated, exereunao], who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching [or, investigating] what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow" (1 Peter 1:10, 11, NKJV).

"Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches [or investigates] the hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds" (Revelation 2:23, NIV).

Thanks to the book by Bradley R. Williams, entitled "The Silencing of Satan" for discovering the above valuable treasures.

If our anti-SDA brothers and sisters and critics of our doctrines would make up their mind and take out time to read the books we recommend, perhaps just maybe that would discover that our Adventist doctrines are not based on flimsy or poor research.

Once again, I've said it before, and I'll say it again....

When Ellen White said...

"Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid." (1 SM 206)....

....she meant EXACTLY what she said!

I know people like Miz3 refuse to believe that she knew what she was talking about.

but I'll say again....and again, and again....

....she meant EXACTLY what she said....

....because she KNEW that she KNEW....

...and she KNEW that the Lord was with us and lead us to these DIVINELY appointed theological and prophetic interpretations of Scripture!

Like TheForerunner777 always says...."whether you LIKE it or NOT, the TRUTH is the TRUTH!"

1. Read my answer to John317 on this synonym business.

2. You don't get it. These other words are NOT SYNONYMS FOR THE WORD "INVESTIGATE".

[John317]

Here are a few places that you can read for yourself about the shut door vision(s):

Word to the "Little Flock" 1847

Letters dated Feb. 15, 1846, Jan. 11, 1850, Feb. 10, 1850, Aug. 24, 1850, an Nov. 12, 1850.

Also: Manuscript Release 1 and 2 and 11 dated Dec. 25, 1850.

Also: Present Truth tracts dated Aug. 1, 1849, Sept. 1, 1849, Dec. 1, 1849, Mar. 1, 1850, Apr. 1850.

You can also read about her vision at Camden, NY on June 29, 1851.

Please note that many of these documents have been kept hidden by those that do not want people to read them. But you can read them at the site I provided for above.

I studied every item you've mentioned above. All of those documents are available on the CD-ROM of EGW's Comprehensive Writings and they are also available in the Manuscript Releases.Some of them are also found in the books, Early Writings, and in Experience and Views. Nothing in them has been suppressed or changed. This is far different from the report on the link you supplied, which makes it appear that there's been a conspiracy to keep people from seeing them.

The only one that is not among her writings is the "vision at Camden, NY, June 29, 1851." I need to study further into it and examine all the evidence regarding the question of its authenticity. At this point, I haven't made up my mind one way or the other, and when I do reach a conclusion, I would enjoy talking it over with you.

If we want to discuss these things further, we need do it on a thread devoted to that topic.

[Lysimachus]

AMAZING VIDEO!

His Way Is In The Sanctuary: The Cleansing of the Sanctuary - by Pastor Stephen Bohr

[John317]

Rev. 2:23:... all the churches shall know that I am he which searches [investigates] [Gk ereunao] men's inmost hearts: and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

NOTE: Observe that God searches/investigates the hearts of people. Notice also that this search or investigation is in the context of "giving to everyone according to their works."

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. Revelation 2:3.

a. This text is not talking about an Investigative Judgment.

That's Rev. 2: 23. You quoted it above.

At this point, I am simply establishing the fact that the Bible teaches that God searches/investigates people's hearts. Also, I am making the point that this investigation into hearts is in the context of "giving to everyone according to their works."

Do you deny that this is true?

[phkrause]

(wink wink). Sure John, and I once saw it rain cats and dogs too.

And where did you see that?

[John317]

You don't get it. These other words are NOT SYNONYMS FOR THE WORD "INVESTIGATE".

Have you studied the Greek-English and Hebrew-English lexicons concerning these words we're discussing?

I will quote them after my dinner. :-)

The Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 3, pages 532, 533:

"[Ereunao] signified originally (a) tracking by animals; sniff out, track down (Homer... Empedocles...); then ( in the human sphere to trace out, examine... e.g. ... a judicial hearing, and especially a scientific, philosophical, and religious investigation (this is particularly in Plato and Philo)." Colin Brown, ed.

Strong's Greek lexicon gives this definition for ereunao: "...apparently from 2046 (through the idea of inquiry); to seek, i.e., (figuratively) to investigate."

Arndt and Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, page 306 (article on eraunao): "Ereunao 'Search, examine, investigate'"

[John317]

AMAZING VIDEO!

His Way Is In The Sanctuary: The Cleansing of the Sanctuary - by Pastor Stephen Bohr

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Yes, wonderful. Hope miz3 and anyone else who's interested watches and listens and is willing to discuss it in some detail.

[Dr. Rich]

Miz3, "they" just don't get it and they probably never will. There is no question that there are judgments and that people are to be judged according to their deeds, so what Marcos and Jim have written is ludicrus at best. It was also a waste of their time and energy and NONE of their texts have anything to do with an imaginary 'investigative judgment' that started at the time EGW said she had the vision from her god-Oct. 22, 1844.

It's simple things like this that make Adventists look like fools, but then the 'foolish virgins' will probably look like fools.

But the whole issue is on attempting to prove the IJ has absolutly nothing to do with one's salvation. The way I see it, it's just an attempt to make the words EGW wrote explain away the mistaken event they now call the great dissappointment. I find it a sad thing when people have to attempt to defend a mistake when it would be a simple thing to say she goofed. The word "tolerate" in Rev. 2:20 is a very good word for this.

By the way, in that same verse the "acts of immorality' are spiritual meaning that they follow other words other than the words of Jesus (have other gods), and the "eat things sacrificed to idols" is spiritual too in that the food (words) she fed were lies and not the real truth.

[Lysimachus]

1. Revelation 2:3.

a. This text is not talking about an Investigative Judgment.

b. The word "searches" is different from the word "test" and both of these are different from the word "investigate". You need to watch your linguistics. You are being very sloppy in trying to make words equal that are NOT EQUAL.

c. God is not "searching" in order to find something new.

d. God is telling human beings in this text that He, God, knows what is in heart. That's it.

You cannot use this text or others like it to try and "frame" an Investigative Judgment.

Again John317 you are just grasping at any text like grasping for straws when you have "nothing", "absolutely nothing".

These are desperation tactics on your part.

2. Jeremiah 17:10 the same as above. As are your texts Psalm 11:4-5; Jeremiah 20:12.

a. None of these texts say anything about an Investigative Judgment.

b. Your words "test", "examine intimately", "see", etc. etc. are not synonyms of the word "investigate".

You cannot just substitute one for the other.

This is a very nifty tactic John317 in an effort to try and use "synonyms" to make your case. But it won't work. We are not some "stupid", "ignorant" children who are lead by such nefarious tactics.

In the texts you cited these words are not synonyms and that is that. Try something else because this tactic is dead.

Thus the Bible does not contain "overwhelming evidence" that God "investigates" people's hearts.

God "tests", God "sees", God "examines", God etc. etc. but these are not the same as "investigate".

"Investigate" is a whole different animal John317. Surely you know this but then when someone has an "illegitimate" doctrine they will "try" and "do" almost anything to try and make it "legitimate".

We are not buying what you are illegitimately selling.

Once again, Miz3, you're trying to DANCE BETWEEN THE RAIN DROPS!

The New Testament term ereunao means "investigate"--as defined in Strong's Dictionary!

The most authoritative lexicons and dictionaries agree that in ereunao we clearly have the idea of investigate. For example, one of these dictionarys says of ereunao, "In the NT [ereunao] has the common sense of 'thorough investigation.'"Gerhard Kittel, ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), vol II, Eerdmans Pub. Co., Grand Rapids, MI, p. 656:4.

I could name MORE dictionaries, do you want me to?? I don't think it will be worth it for this Greek word, but I could give you more for bachan:

James Strong's Hebrew dictionary agrees with Reuben Alcalay's assertion that bachan means investigate. Strong defines this Hebrew term: "974 bachan (baw-khan'); a primitive root; to test. ... ; generally and figuratively, to investigate: KJV---examine, prove, tempt, try (trial)."

Ekzeteo Strong's #1567 "to search out, i.e. (figuratively) investigate, crave, demand, (by Hebraism) worship."

What more info do you need Miz3?

How long are you going to continue kicking against the pricks?

WE are NOT the ones who are DESPERATE HERE. It is OBVIOUS that YOU are the only desperate one here, as the evidence is coming out of the woodwork, and it is leaving you very bothered!

You are refusing to let the Bible make what it will of you!

We are not stupid--of course God knows everything! But He STILL chooses to INVESTIGATE!! Why? For OUR BENEFIT!!

Let's quit trying to figure out why God chooses to INVESTIGATE EVEN IF HE KNOWS ALL THINGS!

Let's quit QUESTIONING why God WORDS certain things the way HE DOES!

In fact, HE is INVESTIGATING YOU RIGHT NOW TO SEE IF YOU WILL SUBMIT TO OUR SCRIPTURAL PROOFS OF THIS DOCTRINE.

It doesn't matter if He already knows the end from the beginning.

HE INVESTIGATES!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

Rev. 2:23:... all the churches shall know that I am he which searches [investigates] [Gk ereunao] men's inmost hearts: and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

NOTE: Observe that God searches/investigates the hearts of people. Notice also that this search or investigation is in the context of "giving to everyone according to their works."

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. Revelation 2:3.

a. This text is not talking about an Investigative Judgment.

That's Rev. 2: 23. You quoted it above.

At this point, I am simply establishing the fact that the Bible teaches that God searches/investigates people's hearts. Also, I am making the point that this investigation into hearts is in the context of "giving to everyone according to their works."

Do you deny that this is true?

1. Thank you for the text correction on the verse number.

2. The Bible does not teach that God "investigates" people's hearts. Plain and simple.

3. Does God look/search at hearts, yes, but God does that with everything on a constant, continuous, unbroken basis. That is same thing as a person watching the sun rise. It is no unique experience.

You are trying to make it a unique experience and the Bible does not teach this.

God already knows what everyone's heart is like and God also knows what the reward is that each person will receive. God is not learning anything new.

You keep saying the Investigative Judgment is not about God learning anything then in the exact same breath you make it about God learning and finding out something.

This is typical "human centric" double talk. It is there for everyone to see.

4. Decide who is doing the investigating. We have already established that it CANNOT BE GOD because God already knows (there is never a moment when God does not know) the hearts and also knows the reward.

5. So far you have established NOTHING except that you use "double talk", are trying to use synonyms that don't fit as synonyms, using Scripture that has nothing but nothing to do with an "Investigative Judgment", and it is clear that you are struggling to make a case that is clearly not Biblical.

Sounds and looks like something the "proverbial used car salesman" would be about.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You don't get it. These other words are NOT SYNONYMS FOR THE WORD "INVESTIGATE".

Have you studied the Greek-English and Hebrew-English lexicons concerning these words we're discussing?

I will quote them after my dinner. :-)

We already understand that you are just trying to trick us into agreeing with your linguistic tricks. Sorry but they won't work.

However, if you insist, knock yourself out.

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, here is the truth regarding the 2300 day prophecy: The Sanctuary is the place for and was used for cleansing, especially on the day of Atonement which was around the fall equinox. First, the high priest had to have his sins cleansed. Second the priest tribe had to have their sins cleansed. Third, the nation (kingdom if you will) had to have their sins cleansed.

Remember this as it is extreemly important to the true undersanding of the Sanctuary and the prophecy. God gave Israel two chances to bring righteous to this world and they failed both times. The last was in regards to Dan. 9:24 and we see that Israel ceased to be a nation and the earthly sanctuary had been destroyed.

But the Sanctuary in heaven was not destroyed but since there was NO ONE during this time who practiced righteousness, there was nothing--no "daily" to be done, that is until the LAST Kingdom of Heaven as seen in Matthew 25:1-13 was established right on time-in 1844. Therefore, the restoring of the work for the heavenly temple (the cleansing of sins--not the IJ) had begun again and will cease when the censor is thrown down to the earth at the 5th bowl.

Yes, I can clearly see why many, not only EGW, believed that this was the start of an 'investigative judgment' and in a way they were correct, but at the same time they did not understand the importance of the event. But of course they couldn't fully understand as God said that the full understanding would be sealed up until the last generation living as it only applied to them. (Dan. 12:10). So it's really hard to put the blame on EGW for this as she simply wrote and said what others thought was the truth.

If anyone is to blame it is those NOW who would be bondservants, but have held to the misunderstandings of what EGW wrote, even though she warned people not to do this because she admitted she didn't understand everything.

Don't get me wrong, I have really enjoyed her books for most of my life, but I have moved on from that and I simply wish others would be honest with themselves an do the same. This is why I don't think (myself) knowing the whole truth regarding judgment, will cause one to loose their salvation. I am hoping that when the time comes for the full understanding that these people will see it and accept it.

I have much more to say or explain on this issue, but this should be enough for now. Blessings, Dr. Rich

[miz3]

Miz3, "they" just don't get it and they probably never will. There is no question that there are judgments and that people are to be judged according to their deeds, so what Marcos and Jim have written is ludicrus at best. It was also a waste of their time and energy and NONE of their texts have anything to do with an imaginary 'investigative judgment' that started at the time EGW said she had the vision from her god-Oct. 22, 1844.

It's simple things like this that make Adventists look like fools, but then the 'foolish virgins' will probably look like fools.

On these words above I believe you are correct 100%.

It is embarrassing to see and watch.

As you have said, SDA and the SDA Church should admit that Ellen White and the early pioneers were wrong on this issue and let it go.

I am not holding my breath though, because "pride" is an extremely strong emotion. Look at how they have held on to this debacle for more than 150years.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. Revelation 2:3.

a. This text is not talking about an Investigative Judgment.

b. The word "searches" is different from the word "test" and both of these are different from the word "investigate". You need to watch your linguistics. You are being very sloppy in trying to make words equal that are NOT EQUAL.

c. God is not "searching" in order to find something new.

d. God is telling human beings in this text that He, God, knows what is in heart. That's it.

You cannot use this text or others like it to try and "frame" an Investigative Judgment.

Again John317 you are just grasping at any text like grasping for straws when you have "nothing", "absolutely nothing".

These are desperation tactics on your part.

2. Jeremiah 17:10 the same as above. As are your texts Psalm 11:4-5; Jeremiah 20:12.

a. None of these texts say anything about an Investigative Judgment.

b. Your words "test", "examine intimately", "see", etc. etc. are not synonyms of the word "investigate".

You cannot just substitute one for the other.

This is a very nifty tactic John317 in an effort to try and use "synonyms" to make your case. But it won't work. We are not some "stupid", "ignorant" children who are lead by such nefarious tactics.

In the texts you cited these words are not synonyms and that is that. Try something else because this tactic is dead.

Thus the Bible does not contain "overwhelming evidence" that God "investigates" people's hearts.

God "tests", God "sees", God "examines", God etc. etc. but these are not the same as "investigate".

"Investigate" is a whole different animal John317. Surely you know this but then when someone has an "illegitimate" doctrine they will "try" and "do" almost anything to try and make it "legitimate".

We are not buying what you are illegitimately selling.

Once again, Miz3, you're trying to DANCE BETWEEN THE RAIN DROPS!

The New Testament term ereunao means "investigate"--as defined in Strong's Dictionary!

The most authoritative lexicons and dictionaries agree that in ereunao we clearly have the idea of investigate. For example, one of these dictionarys says of ereunao, "In the NT [ereunao] has the common sense of 'thorough investigation.'"Gerhard Kittel, ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), vol II, Eerdmans Pub. Co., Grand Rapids, MI, p. 656:4.

I could name MORE dictionaries, do you want me to?? I don't think it will be worth it for this Greek word, but I could give you more for bachan:

James Strong's Hebrew dictionary agrees with Reuben Alcalay's assertion that bachan means investigate. Strong defines this Hebrew term: "974 bachan (baw-khan'); a primitive root; to test. ... ; generally and figuratively, to investigate: KJV---examine, prove, tempt, try (trial)."

Ekzeteo Strong's #1567 "to search out, i.e. (figuratively) investigate, crave, demand, (by Hebraism) worship."

What more info do you need Miz3?

How long are you going to continue kicking against the pricks?

WE are NOT the ones who are DESPERATE HERE. It is OBVIOUS that YOU are the only desperate one here, as the evidence is coming out of the woodwork, and it is leaving you very bothered!

You are refusing to let the Bible make what it will of you!

We are not stupid--of course God knows everything! But He STILL chooses to INVESTIGATE!! Why? For OUR BENEFIT!!

Let's quit trying to figure out why God chooses to INVESTIGATE EVEN IF HE KNOWS ALL THINGS!

Let's quit QUESTIONING why God WORDS certain things the way HE DOES!

In fact, HE is INVESTIGATING YOU RIGHT NOW TO SEE IF YOU WILL SUBMIT TO OUR SCRIPTURAL PROOFS OF THIS DOCTRINE.

It doesn't matter if He already knows the end from the beginning.

HE INVESTIGATES!

Maybe you should leave the arguing to others.

You are just repeating the nonsense we have already heard from others. "Little sir echo" like.

[Samie]

...

The texts that John317 gave should have settled the score, but I'll give you the whole shabang to reinforce this point even more:

"And all the churches shall know that I am He who searches [Greek, ereunao-investigates] minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works" (Revelation 2:23)

"The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord is on his heavenly throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine [bachan, investigates] them. The Lord examines [bachan, investigates] the righteous" (Psalms 11:4,5, NIV))

...

If at the time of writing of the many quoted verses from Scriptures God was already investigating us, then what's the point in relegating God to the sanctuary to start the investigation only in 1844?

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

...

The texts that John317 gave should have settled the score, but I'll give you the whole shabang to reinforce this point even more:

"And all the churches shall know that I am He who searches [Greek, ereunao-investigates] minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works" (Revelation 2:23)

"The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord is on his heavenly throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine [bachan, investigates] them. The Lord examines [bachan, investigates] the righteous" (Psalms 11:4,5, NIV))

...

If at the time of writing of the many quoted verses from Scriptures God was already investigating us, then what's the point in relegating God to the sanctuary to start the investigation only in 1844?

That was NOT the original objection of Miz3! We are NOT discussing the "final phase of investigation" here!

Miz3 was saying that God does not Investigate PERIOD. My arguments have NOTHING to do with the timing of the INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT!

All throughout the Jewish year, there was a process of investigation, and a searching of hearts of God's people. But Yom Kippur was a SPECIAL day of FINAL judgment and cleansing.

Please STICK with the arguments IN THEIR CONTEXT!

[Lysimachus]

Marcos, here is the truth regarding the 2300 day prophecy: The Sanctuary is the place for and was used for cleansing, especially on the day of Atonement which was around the fall equinox. First, the high priest had to have his sins cleansed. Second the priest tribe had to have their sins cleansed. Third, the nation (kingdom if you will) had to have their sins cleansed.

Remember this as it is extreemly important to the true undersanding of the Sanctuary and the prophecy. God gave Israel two chances to bring righteous to this world and they failed both times. The last was in regards to Dan. 9:24 and we see that Israel ceased to be a nation and the earthly sanctuary had been destroyed.

[John317]

But the Bible itself contains overwhelming evidence that God does indeed test, or investigate, people's hearts and lives. The Greek word in the NT is the same word, ereunao, used in modern Greece to describe a police investigation.

For instance:

Rev. 2:23:... all the churches shall know that I am he which searches [investigates] [Gk ereunao] men's inmost hearts: and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

NOTE: Observe that God searches/investigates the hearts of people. Notice also that this search or investigation is in the context of "giving to everyone according to their works."

Originally Posted By: miz3

This is a very nifty tactic John317 in an effort to try and use "synonyms" to make your case. But it won't work. We are not some "stupid", "ignorant" children who are lead by such nefarious tactics.

In the texts you cited these words are not synonyms and that is that. Try something else because this tactic is dead.

Have you studied the Greek-English and Hebrew-English lexicons concerning these words we're discussing?

The Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 3, pages 532, 533:

"[Ereunao] signified originally (a) tracking by animals; sniff out, track down (Homer... Empedocles...); then ( in the human sphere to trace out, examine... e.g. ... a judicial hearing, and especially a scientific, philosophical, and religious investigation (this is particularly in Plato and Philo)." Colin Brown, ed.

Strong's Greek lexicon gives this definition for ereunao: "...apparently from 2046 (through the idea of inquiry); to seek, i.e., (figuratively) to investigate."

Arndt and Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, page 306 (article on eraunao): "Ereunao 'Search, examine, investigate'"

[Samie]

Hi Lysimachus;

You said:

...

The texts that John317 gave should have settled the score, but I'll give you the whole shabang to reinforce this point even more:

"And all the churches shall know that I am He who searches [Greek, ereunao-investigates] minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works" (Revelation 2:23)

"The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord is on his heavenly throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine [bachan, investigates] them. The Lord examines [bachan, investigates] the righteous" (Psalms 11:4,5, NIV))

...

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, I do not need your advise. Actually, I can only name a few others who have researched this issue as much as I have, and I have found that ALL, and I do mean ALL, of those you named as your teachers, including the one with the video, are totally clueless as to what the real truth is. It would be easier for a leopard to change his spots than for any pastor, leader or teacher within the SDA church to change their belief. Why? Because they have been deceived and God said so and I am just repeating what was prophesied in Rev. 2 and 3! Since you admit that you NEED someone's words other than the words of Jesus to fully understand salvation, then let me be the one to advise you and others to please be very careful because Jesus warned us that many would come in the name of Jesus and say that Jesus is the Christ, but would deceive and mislead many! The words of Jesus will NEVER mislead anyone and that is why I have chosen to follow only the words of Jesus.

I ask the question again, why so those found in the seventh warning as found in Rev. 3, think they can see, clothed and so rich they are in need of nothing? When you figure that out, perhaps you will have your eyes opened.

[John317]

Marcos, I do not need your advise. Actually, I can only name a few others who have researched this issue as much as I have, and I have found that ALL, and I do mean ALL, of those you named as your teachers, including the one with the video, are totally clueless as to what the real truth is.

How can you say this when you are someone who believes that Paul and Peter and Jude and James and Mark and Luke were all false, that Acts 2: 3 should read "a tongue" instead of "tongues", and that it was the Devil and not the Holy Spirit who inspired Peter on the day of Pentecost?

Talk about clueless and confused!

[Lysimachus]

OK then, are you saying the verses in post #519176 have nothing to do with the IJ that you claimed started in 1844?

You would be correct. Those verses were not being provided to prove that the Investigative Judgment began in heaven in 1844. Those verses were only to prove to Miz3 that God does "investigate". His main argument is that because God is all knowing, He doesn't need to investigate anything.

Concerning the commencement of the Investigative Judgment in 1844, I've barely scratched the surface. And as we advance in this thread, it is my hope that we can cover these issues in much more detail and thoroughness.

[John317]

OK then, are you saying the verses in post #519176 have nothing to do with the IJ that you claimed started in 1844?

All we are saying at this point is that the Bible contains strong, clear evidence that God does indeed "investigate" and "search" human hearts and lives. Secondly, we are saying that this "search"/"investigation" is in the context of rewarding people for the deeds they've done. See Rev. 2: 23.

This is directly contrary to those who say God does not investigatve people's hearts.

Later we'll present evidence about the timing of the Judgment. We're taking one step at a time.