The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[John317]

The question itself is a compound question with assumptions and presumptions that are either false or out of context...

We agree here, Dr. Rich.

[John317]

... whom do you believe is/was the "little horn"?

Originally Posted By: John3:17

The little-horn power of Daniel 7 is pagan Rome; in Daniel 8, the little-horn power is both pagan and papal Rome.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Then please explain Dan. 7:11-12?

I should have said Daniel 7 is papal Rome.

Verses 11 & 12 give us the final end of the powers. Papal Rome, the man of sin, will ultimately be utterly destroyed when Christ returns, whereas many of the people belonging to the other world empires go on living following the fall of those empires. For instance, the descendents of the people of ancient Babylon, Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome are still living today.

The rest of the chapter shows that the "little-horn power" of Daniel 7 is active on earth during the time it is being judged.

[John317]

... I still have a bit of an issue.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period.

Great Controversy, Chapter 28, Facing Life's Record.

Yes, we believe the IJ only deals with people who have professed faith in God or in the Messiah, Jesus Christ. I was simply rejecting the notion that SDAs teach the IJ only deals with the SDA church. The reason the IJ doesn't deal with those who never professed faith in God or in Christ is that people who never accepted Christ are already condemned.

John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The IJ makes manifest the distinction between those who are genuine believers in Christ and those who aren't.

[BobRyan]

It would seem we agree that Daniel 7 deals with the judgment on the little horn.

However, I still have a bit of an issue.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period.

Great Controversy, Chapter 28, Facing Life's Record.

Now if if the Daniel 7 judgment includes nations and the little horn power, some of which may be in it for the power, not due to any profession of God, then that raises the issue of whether this meets Ellen White's criteria.

1. Accusations are made against the saints by the little horn. That implies that the little horn has a "claim" that gives it the right to make such complaints. It is not at all clear that paganism has such a "claim" by its very nature.

Thus the fact that someone has a surface claim to something does not in anyway prove that the surface assertions are in fact valid -- as Christ explains in Matt 7.

2. In Romans 2:13-16 we see that even some gentiles without any access at all to scripture - are considered by God to be born again saved saints under the New Covenant. Thus the mere fact that they lacked some level "of the right story" was not enough to dismiss their claim.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

...Again we see actions taken against powers in the judgment, the stripping of authority of nations and the condemnation of the little horn. It is not just a judgment on individual believers. In fact, it doesn't reference specifically judgment on individual believers in Daniel 7, but speaks of the saints as a whole being delivered and receiving the kingdom.

You're right that the IJ isn't just a judgment on individual believers. SDAs have never said it was.

However, it does include a judgment on believers.

It distinguishes between genuine believers and those who merely claim to be.

Many people make claims-- the IJ looks at the motives and the heart, not merely at our claims.

Consider:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

NOTE: There will be people who thought they were doing God's will even while they were disobeying God's law and yet they evidently believed it was OK. Could it be that these were Christians who accepted the false teaching that God's law was done away with or was irrelevent?

Also notice that these people who are rejected made a false profession of faith in Christ, but their actions show they never really meant what they claimed.

[BobRyan]

However, the judgment in Daniel 7 is not on individual believers but the saints are delivered as a group and the little horn power is judged.

[John317]

I like your post, Bob. Very well put.

[olger]

Indeed

[phkrause]

Excellent post Bob

[Dr. Rich]

Believe it or not, I too like your post Bob. May not agree with all of it, but it's the bottom line that I like.

[tall73]

What tall73 does not realize is that while the judgment is directed on the Little Horn, it also implicates the saints.

[tall73]

The cleansing in chapter 8 is not a Day of Atonement. It is from the activities of that little horn, not the sins of all God's people.

The cleansing, and the images of a ram and a goat are in line with other passages that speak of cleansing of the sanctuary from defilement.

Here is an example from the time of Hezekiah. The sanctuary had to be cleansed from defilement.

2Ch 29:3 He in the first year of his reign, in the first month, opened the doors of the house of the LORD, and repaired them.

2Ch 29:4 And he brought in the priests and the Levites, and gathered them together into the east street,

2Ch 29:5 And said unto them, Hear me, ye Levites, sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the LORD God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy place.

2Ch 29:6 For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.

2Ch 29:7 Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.

2Ch 29:16 And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD into the court of the house of the LORD. And the Levites took it, to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron.

2Ch 29:17 Now they began on the first day of the first month to sanctify, and on the eighth day of the month came they to the porch of the LORD: so they sanctified the house of the LORD in eight days; and in the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end.

2Ch 29:18 Then they went in to Hezekiah the king, and said, We have cleansed all the house of the LORD, and the altar of burnt offering, with all the vessels thereof, and the shewbread table, with all the vessels thereof.

2Ch 29:19 Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.

2Ch 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar of the LORD.

This passage describes the restoration of the temple after a time where it had been abandoned and foreign items were put in it that polluted it, likely idols, since they had turned away from God.

It is speaking of restoration from the defilement. It includes the ram and goat as sacrifices, the same animals used in the Daniel 8 vision.

In Hezekiah's cleansing the issue was defilement of the sanctuary. It was not the same as the ritual purification of the sanctuary on the day of atonement from the sins of the camp.

The type of cleansing done in Hezekiah's case is a closer biblical parallel to what is talked about in Daniel 8. The cleansing is from outside defilement, not the intended cleansing of the sins of all God's people.

[tall73]

The judgment includes a complete separation from Rome--a COMPLETION of the Reformation.

That's exactly what Adventists began to do in 1844.

a. The question was, until when, ie when would the activities of the horn cease.

The little horn Adventists identify did not stop practicing what it was before in 1844.

b. In 1844 the correct view, per Adventists, of the sanctuary was not known. First they spent most of the year thinking that it would be the earth that would be cleansed--a wrong view. Then it would take years for the IJ doctrine to develop.

So it was not known in 1844 either.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

... I still have a bit of an issue.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period.

Great Controversy, Chapter 28, Facing Life's Record.

Yes, we believe the IJ only deals with people who have professed faith in God or in the Messiah, Jesus Christ. I was simply rejecting the notion that SDAs teach the IJ only deals with the SDA church. The reason the IJ doesn't deal with those who never professed faith in God or in Christ is that people who never accepted Christ are already condemned.

John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The IJ makes manifest the distinction between those who are genuine believers in Christ and those who aren't.

A. My point was not that it was just on the Adventists. My point was that Ellen White says the IJ only considers the professed people of God. But Daniel 7 considers the little horn, some of who would be in it just for power, not confession of God, and includes other nations as well, who made no profession of the true God.

It doesn't meet the criteria.

B. How would they know the others didn't make a profession if they didn't review their case also?

[tall73]

1. Accusations are made against the saints by the little horn. That implies that the little horn has a "claim" that gives it the right to make such complaints. It is not at all clear that paganism has such a "claim" by its very nature.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

...Again we see actions taken against powers in the judgment, the stripping of authority of nations and the condemnation of the little horn. It is not just a judgment on individual believers. In fact, it doesn't reference specifically judgment on individual believers in Daniel 7, but speaks of the saints as a whole being delivered and receiving the kingdom.

You're right that the IJ isn't just a judgment on individual believers. SDAs have never said it was.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

However, the judgment in Daniel 7 is not on individual believers but the saints are delivered as a group and the little horn power is judged.

Both the Dan 7 and SDA view of pre-advent judgment has a completed point in time where the entire group has been judged and the entire group of the saints found to be vindicated. (And so "Judgment passed in favor of the saints").

It says the saints are delivered and inherit the kingdom, it does not spell out individual judgment at this time in the text.

Moreover it does condemn the little horn power and other nations, which are not all professed people of God, and therefore do not meet Ellen White's criteria, or parallel the Day of Atonement.

[tall73]

Scripture testifies that this is all done on an individual bases 2Cor 5:10 "We must all stand before the judgment seat of God to give an account for the DEEDS done in the body ... be they good or evil".

Scriptures affirm that people will be judged individually. We agree.

However, that is much different than what you just did. Daniel 7 does not picture that. And you just went outside the context of Daniel 7 which includes elements not in line with the DOA type which is the basis of the Adventist IJ.

Moreover, this text you quote does not describe the Adventist IJ.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Now notice in this text

a. We APPEAR before the judgment seat. That is not the Adventist IJ. We don't appear there.

b. We RECEIVE what is due...that is not the Adventist IJ either.

You can't take other texts that have elements other than those in Daniel 7 and try to read them back in. It doesn't fit.

[tall73]

Romans 2:13-15 it is "Not the hearers but the doers of the Law that WILL be justifIED" in that future day. And the text is very clear about the individual basis for that judgment.

Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

I agree, God will judge individuals.

What is the day that He judges them in Paul's thinking?

Notice some other elements from Roman's description of our appearance at the judgment seat:

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

Rom 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

A. We stand before Him

B. We bow the knee and confess

C. We give an account.

This is not the IJ.

Here is more information on that day of judgment from another letter by Paul.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

At His coming He brings things to light.

[tall73]

Other texts that show convincing, confronting and judging at Jesus' coming:

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him

Mat 25:14 "For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.

Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.

Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.

Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.

Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.

Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

[tall73]

Judgement is passed in favor of the saints based on the review of evidence contained in "books". It is not demoninations or congregations that are saved - as it turns out -- but rather individuals.

[tall73]

A. The cleansing INSIDE the sanctuary did not involve books or investigation. The blood was not examined. It was applied for forgiveness for the camp. The cleansing that happened in the sanctuary was an application of blood for atonement.

B. There is a simple explanation of its fulfillment in Day of Atonement language in Hebrews:

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

Here we have the elements of the cleansing presentation of blood.

The context of purifying the sanctuary from SINS, not defilement from an outside force

Entry into God's presence

Once for all rather than the once per year High Priestly ministry with blood.

Here we have all the elements. Here we have a straightforward fulfillment of the type.

Death, entry, purificiation of the heavenly things.

Now the scapegoat part, that happened after He left the temple, I would think that still remains. But the cleansing application of blood was already presented.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Jesus sat down after having ministered His one sacrifice in God's presence.

Now contrast that with the Adventist view of books. There was no investigation of the blood in the Day of Atonement. There was cleansing by blood. And it already happened.

Now we either avail ourselves of it or not.

[tall73]

Now it is interesting to me that Adventists cannot see the Day of Atonemnent in Hebrews which has:

a. discussion of the cleansing of the sanctuary FROM SINS of people, in the Day of Atonement

b. Entry into God's presence with blood

c. The high priest once per year entry

However, Adventists clearly see the Day of Atonement in Daniel 8 where no context at all is mentioned of cleansing from confessed sins, rather the context is cleansing from external defilement by the little horn. No reference is made to the Day of Atonement rites.

Hebrews 8 is the only straight-forward discussion of the fulfillment of the type.

[Samie]

...

Your question is based on an unbiblical assumption, "If..."

All sins have not already been forgiven and taken away, and there is definitely a record of sins.

Consider:

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 12:23

Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

NOTE: The above verses prove without a doubt that all sins were not forgiven at the cross. 1 John 1: 9 proves that the forgiveness of our sins is conditioned upon our repentence and sincere confession. Herod was killed by the angel of the Lord because of his sins, and this would make no sense if Herod's sins were already all forgiven. Peter puts the forgiveness of our sins in the future and conditioned upon repentence.

...

[John317]

.... the whole focus is on the nations and then the little horn that are at that time ruling the saints (before the reign of Jesus).

Now Ellen White says on [only? ed.] the cases of the professed believers are considered.

Yes, here's what she wrote:

Quote:

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. "Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel?" 1 Peter 4:17. {GC 480.1}

QUESTION: Are not the Roman Catholic Church and the papacy-- the little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8-- among the "professed people of God"?

They consider themselves "the people of God". They call themselves such in their catechisms and in the Vatican II documents.

Of course, many Catholics will be saved, and therefore, many in the Roman Catholic Church are truly "the people of God." The IJ distinguishes the true from the false. That is one of its main purposes.

Notice what Jesus tells the church of Thyatira-- the church of the Middle Ages, as SDAs understand it-- in His letter to the Christians of that period:

Rev. 2:23--

And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.

Observe that the search of people's minds and hearts is in the context of giving to each professed believer as his work deserves-- clearly a judgment.