The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[tall73]

In Dan 7 the Ancient of Days - moves TO the courtroom.

Turns out - God can move.

Turns out anyone who read Ezekiel already knew that. But when He was moving it was to take a tour around the land. Which actually fits pretty well with then judging the nations. It is up to you to demonstrate from the text what you are trying to find there.

[tall73]

In Heb 9 - the daily and the inauguration are clearly depicted. Your argument against that relies heavily on the notion that God is not actually in the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary.

The YEARLY entry of the highpriest with blood in the context of the cleansing of the sanctuary from sins by entry into God's presence was not the inauguration. That happened once, not yearly.

But I agree, the inauguration happened too.

And as for daily:

Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

The need for daily ministration of sacrifice and blood was the weakness of the earthly shadow. Jesus offered a single sacrifice then sat down. You don't need a daily prolonged ministration.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

a. The question [of Daniel 8: 13] was, until when, ie when would the activities of the horn cease.

The question is actually, "How long will the vision be?"

Literally, the verse reads: "How long is the vision of the daily as taken away and the transgression which horrifies, the giving of both the holy [place] and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

It could also be translated: "How long will the vision about the daily apply, and the transgression that horrifies, so as to allow both the holy [place] and the host to be trampled underfoot?" (See NASB.)

Verse 14 gives the answer: "For two thousand three hundred evening-mornings, then the sanctuary shall be cleansed [restored to its rightful state]."

So the question is, how long will the vision be concerning the holy [place].

The Jewish Publication Society's translation of Daniel 8: 13 reads, "How long will the vision last?"

Also compare Rotherham's Emphasized Bible: "How long is the vision...?"

That's different from asking when the activities of the little-horn power will stop.

Actually I was using the rendition that is most favorable to the Adventist position to avoid issues as in most discussions they prefer the rendering "until when" in other forums where I discussed. So to save time I used that as it doesn't make a huge difference to my view.

There is a reason they prefer that reading however. I will quote from the Adventist Daniel and Revelation Committee work "Symposium on Daniel". This is from Hasel's chapter dealing with each phrase from Chapter 8.

While the usual rendering of our common versions emphasize length of time, the author notes that the Hebrew reads literally: "Until when....?" The explicit emphasis in the audition focuses on the end of the time, as Gabriel later informs Daniel (vss. 17,19). Hence the real intent of the question is not an inquiry about duration (how long?), but about termination (until when?) and what would follow.

(Emphasis is original)

Now there is a reason he stresses this. If the vision is the duration then you have one of two choices, neither of which work for Adventists.

If the activity of the little horn spans the vision, there are two possible visions that people debate. There is the whole vision, starting with the activity of the ram in its various directions, which pre-dates in fact the Adventist starting point. Or there is the vision only with reference particularly to the activities of the little horn itself--which start after the usual Adventist starting point.

In other words, duration just doesn't work for the Adventist position. However, termination might.

[doug yowell]

The need for daily ministration of sacrifice and blood was the weakness of the earthly shadow. Jesus offered a single sacrifice then sat down. You don't need a daily prolonged ministration.

Then the priesthood of Christ has ceased? If there is no need for daily ministration there is no need for a priest,true? Yet, Christ is the High priest (forever).So now what does a high priest do? And why the further need for the heavenly sanctuary?

[tall73]

Although Daniel 8's focus is on the judgment of the Little Horn, one must turn to the Apocalyptic literature to discover that there is a judgment going on with the saints as well.

Bob Pickle has an answer to this. If I had more time, I'd divulge deeper into this topic, but here is an excellent article:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/cleansing-of-the-sanctuary.htm

Concerning the reference of confessed sins, this article here deals with confessed sins transferred to the sanctuary:

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb3.php (scroll to, "The Sanctuary, Blood, and Defilement")

We have played the quote the pickle game before, over on CF. Last time I went and read them and responded to them. I didn't find what you said I would.

So rather than me running after links, you could just discuss your position here, as this is a discussion forum.

[tall73]

Concerning the cleansing of confessed sins of believers on the Day of Atonement, we must remember that there is a remarkable parallel between the thematic sequence of Dan. 8 and Lev 1-16. In Daniel 8:1-12 the little horn interferece with the daily ministration of the Prince of the host. But in Daniel 8:13-14 the focus shifts to the yearly ministraiton--the justification or cleansing of the sanctuary. This is the same sequence we find in Leviticus 1-16. In chapters 1-15 we find the emphasis on the daily ministration in the court and in the holy place in favor of the individual Israelites. But in chapter 16 the focus shifts from the individual Israelite to the cleansing of the sanctuary.

Except as you just noted in your previous post, the emphasis is on the activities of the little horn.

So it is not the yearly. It is cleansing from the activities of the little horn. If the context doesn't support it being the yearly cleansing from confessed sins in the first place the nyou can't have a thematic parallel.

No where in Daniel 8 is pictured investigation on saints, cleansing of confessed sins etc. Why ignore the whole context to read something in?

Unless you are already looking for the DOA in verse 14 because that is the Adventist teaching.

[tall73]

Scholars have argued that Dan. 8:14 cannot be connected with Leviticus 16 because in Dan. 8:14 it is an apostate power which defiles the sanctuary while in Lev 16 it is the confessed sins of God's people which have defiled it. Are these two emphases mutually exclusive or are they complementary? Is the sanctuary polluted only by the confessed sins of God's people or is it also defiled by the sins of those who profess to be God's people and yet are impostors? Let's take a few moments to study just one passage from the Old Testament to answer these questions. The book of Zephaniah is fascinating. Though the book deals with god's judgment upon israel at the Babylonian captivity, the language makes it very clear that this jdugment prefigured God's great judgment at the end of time. We are particularly concerned here with chapter three and verses one and seven.

Here God calls Jerusalem (the city where His own people dwell) "filthy" and "polluted" (verse 1). In verse 5 the filthy and polluted ones are called "unjust" or "unrighteous". Once again we find a link between the idea of being filthy and being unrighteous. God's own people are accused of not obey hing His voice (verse 2). Then the religious leaders are singled out in this apostasy--the princes, the judges, the prophets and the priests (verses 3-4). Of particular significance is the declaration in verse 4 that "her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law." So it is possible for apostate priests who claim to serve God to pollute the sanctuary!! (See also, Ezek. 8) For this God promises to come in judgment against those who profess to be His people. Verse 8 makes it very clear that this judgment has much more than Israel in view. It is a judgment of the whole world at the end of time. The rest of the chapter composed of promises of restoration for those who remain faithful to God. Of particular significance is verse 13 which is parallel to Revelation 14:5 where the 144,000 are described.

Notice the pollution of the temple is not remedied in the same way as the yearly issue of sins of the people.

The pollution of the temple led to God destroying His temple and exiling His people. The sins on the other hand in the DOA were cleansed with blood.

And in Hezekiah the king remedied the outside pollution, but it was not in fact the same as when the sins of the people were dealt with.

So, you have pollution of the temple which is either remedied or the temple is destroyed.

And you have the sins of the people which require cleansing. But they are not the same thing.

[tall73]

.

Unequivocally, confessed sins were cleansed from the sanctuary in Leviticus 16:16 on the Day of Atonement:

• "So he shall make atonement for [or "a purging from"] the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgression, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness."

On the Day of Atonement, every Israelite made sure to confess his sins. If confessed sins did not enter the sanctuary upon confession, then there would be nothing to cleanse or purge from the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

I think we could have an interesting discussion on the point, and I have many times in several forums. But this point I have found is not central either way. We both agree the sins got there, though we don't agree how. And we both admit they need cleansing. They are sins of the camp, not sins from the outside pollution however, which was dealt with by reform and restoration and re-dedication (as in Hezekiah's time) or by the people being driven from the land and the temple destroyed (as later).

So we can focus on what the text says about the cleansing for now, of the sins of the people. And that is simply not the topic in Daniel 8.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

The need for daily ministration of sacrifice and blood was the weakness of the earthly shadow. Jesus offered a single sacrifice then sat down. You don't need a daily prolonged ministration.

Then the priesthood of Christ has ceased? If there is no need for daily ministration there is no need for a priest,true? Yet, Christ is the High priest (forever).So now what does a high priest do? And why the further need for the heavenly sanctuary?

No, His priesthood has not ceased. He is our High Priest. What ceased was the daily need for more animals, more sacrifice, more blood, more presentation of the blood.

Jesus did all that once. Now He ministers on the basis of that completed action. We still come in real time to have it applied:

Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus already did the blood work. Now we avail ourselves of it or not.

In the service the high priest would offer the cleansing sacrifice for the whole camp. Not everyone benefited by it, but it was offered either way.

Notice the following:

Heb 1:3b After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

He made the purification already, past tense, by the writing of Hebrews. Then He sat down. I suppose once saved always saved folks would apply that immediately to all that they saw it applying to. But along with chapter 4 rather it looks like this was the corporate provision, and then we appropriate it in real time.

We still approach Him there to obtain help based on that one redemption for us in time of need.

In the type the priest made the provision for all. But the person accepted it outside the sanctuary or not.

[tall73]

And in case I wasn't clear enough before, I still think the scapegoat portion will likely happen after Jesus leaves the sanctuary, as in the type.

But the death, entry, purification is described as past. The fulfillment is greater than the type. The type required many deaths, a number of entries, and yearly purfication.

But Jesus did it once.

[tall73]

Now I am going to take a break for a while. I think the back and forth has resulted in a pause in the other side methodically laying out the evidence as appears to be their intent.

I have said what I want to for a while. Carry on.

[Lysimachus]

If the text doesn't indicate it then Adventist literature doesn't mean much.

The whole context and thrust is of the cleansing from the defilement of the little horn. Because you already believe it has reference to the other you read it in too. But it does not say it in the text.

And that is the whole point of what you are doing here--to show it from the text.

But the point is, Daniel 7 is only presenting one angle. It's not focussing on the sins of the saints. It is focusing on the Little Horn. One must go elsewhere in Scripture to understand the salvific processes concerning the saints.

It is a terrible assumption that because the judgment of the saints is not found in Daniel 7 that this must mean it isn't so. Other scriptures are needed to put the WHOLE puzzle together, from start to finish.

[Dr. Rich]

Who are the 'saints'? Before Christ many were released from their grave and went to heaven with Christ as we now see the 24 Elders as found in Revelation. But just who are the "saints" after Jesus rose from the grave--NOW? Here is the thing, no one can be a saint until they are sanctified and NO ONE has become sanctified since the disciples--have they? If so, poiont one out?

The saints blood crying out under the altar (one had to be perfect to be sacrificed), are only from the 144k and 5 wise virgins who die during the time of trouble after they have been sealed by God (Sanctified).

Since the beast that was Rome was thrown in the fire, it will never come back, but the first beast of Rev. 13, is an amalgum of the Leopard, Lion and Bear. As such, it is the ONE WORLD ORDER, given it's power by the second beast of Rev. 13, Satan himself.

There is a judgment for the rightous prior to the time of trouble as found in Rev. 11:1 and then there is a judgment of the bride during the time of trouble (those in Rev. 7:9-16) as found in Rev. 11:2. That's it for the judgment of the righteous.

[John317]

If a record of sins is maintained, then how would you harmonize that with what God Himself pronounced:

Hebrews 10:16-17

Quote:

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

In effect, you are saying God keeps a record of sins He forgets? Does that make sense?

You asked a good and reasonable question here, Samie.

The quick answer is that while the blood of Jesus covers our sins that we repent of and confess, our sins are not blotted out of the "books" in heaven until the Investigative Judgment.

Does God promise to forget the sins of people whose lives show that they don't have the laws of God written on their hearts and minds?

Please notice that the verse doesn't say when God will forget people's sins. In fact, the verse indicates that it is when they have His laws written on their hearts and minds.

Consider some Bible evidence of this:

1) In the typical sacrificial system, sins were atoned for every day as the sinner by faith made his sacrifice, yet on the Day of Atonement, at the end of the year, an atonement had to be made for "all their sins." See Leviticus 16: 16-21.

As it happened in the typical system on earth, so it happens in the antitype in heaven.

2) Ezekiel 18:24

But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

NOTE: When people turn away from God and return to a life of sin, God honors their choice. This is what happened, for instance, to King Saul. Judas preached the gospel and healed people, yet all the good that he did won't be remembered; he will be lost. The same could be said of Ananias and Sapphira.

3)Eccles. 12:13-14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

4) Matthew 12:36

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

NOTE: IN the judgment, even the sins that have been forgiven will be considered-- everything, whether good or evil-- but if it is determined that the person was forgiven and that he "held fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end(Heb 3: 6)," his name will be retained in the book of life and all his sins will forever be blotted out. On the other hand, if a person's life shows that he left Christ and returned to a life of sin, his name will be blotted out of the book of life, and he will held responsible for all of his sins.

[John317]

....just who are the "saints" after Jesus rose from the grave--NOW? Here is the thing, no one can be a saint until they are sanctified and NO ONE has become sanctified since the disciples--have they? If so, poiont one out?

No believers in Christ have been sanctified for 2,000 years?

What does the Bible mean by "sanctified"?

I think your statements show that you have a wrong concept of the Bible's teachings on this point.

The Bible uses the term "sanctified" in two different ways, doesn't it?

[Dr. Rich]

You may be right John but I am not talking about the words of Paul, I am going on the words of Jesus only.

[John317]

Who are the 'saints'?

That's ultimately decided during the Investigative Judgment. God, of course, knows who they are, but the whole universe is interested in seeing the evidence. The Judgment is not done in a corner but is open for everyone to see. This is shown in the court scenes of Daniel 7.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

...There is a judgment for the rightous prior to the time of trouble as found in Rev. 11:1 and then there is a judgment of the bride during the time of trouble (those in Rev. 7:9-16) as found in Rev. 11:2. That's it for the judgment of the righteous.

I'm glad you concede the righteous are judged prior to the Second Coming. This is part of the Investigative Judgment, which clears the names and reputations of God as well as of all the saints. In it, God is proved to be just and right, the little-horn power is condemned, and the sins of the saints of God are blotted out and their names retained in the book of life.

[John317]

You may be right John but I am not talking about the words of Paul, I am going on the words of Jesus only.

What is the meaning of "sanctify" and "sanctified" in the words of Jesus as quoted below in John 17: 17-23?

Please notice that Jesus prays for the sanctification of those who will believe through the preaching of the disciples.

Don't we believe in Jesus through the word of the disciples? If so, Jesus' prayer is for us, too.

Did Jesus' prayer to His Father go unanswered for the last 2,000 years?

John 17:17-23

Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. [18] As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [19] And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

[20] "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, [21] that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. [22] The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, [23] I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

[John317]

His priesthood has not ceased. He is our High Priest. What ceased was the daily need for more animals, more sacrifice, more blood, more presentation of the blood.

Jesus did all that once. Now He ministers on the basis of that completed action. We still come in real time to have it applied:

...Jesus already did the blood work. Now we avail ourselves of it or not.

In the service the high priest would offer the cleansing sacrifice for the whole camp. Not everyone benefited by it, but it was offered either way.

We're in complete agreement here.

[tall73]

But the point is, Daniel 7 is only presenting one angle. It's not focussing on the sins of the saints. It is focusing on the Little Horn. One must go elsewhere in Scripture to understand the salvific processes concerning the saints.

It is a terrible assumption that because the judgment of the saints is not found in Daniel 7 that this must mean it isn't so. Other scriptures are needed to put the WHOLE puzzle together, from start to finish.

I am not going to do the back and forth for a while, but wanted to clarify on what we agree on. I am not saying that it not being found in Daniel 7 doesn't mean it isn't so. That would not follow.

It just means it isn't found in Daniel 7.

[John317]

I do not consider that everyone who was part of the Catholic Church professed God, especially in the middle ages. Many were baptized as infants in "Christian" nations, and it was assumed they were Catholic.

OK, I agree with that.

The point here is that the Investigative Judgment considers everyone who has ever professed faith in God and Jesus for salvation. That includes everyone from Adam to the last person who professes faith in Christ before the Second Coming.

The papal system has always professed faith in Christ. In fact, it teaches that the popes and the Vatican have special authority to speak and act in Christ's place. They claim to be able to create and sacrifice Christ in the Mass, to forgive the sins of God's people, to act as mediator between God and men, and to help liberate the dead from purgatory.

[John317]

...

I am not going to do the back and forth for a while, but wanted to clarify on what we agree on. I am not saying that it not being found in Daniel 7 doesn't mean it isn't so. That would not follow.

It just means it isn't found in Daniel 7.

Are you sure?

Daniel 7:22

... the Ancient of Days came, and judgment [vindication] was given for [in favor of] the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

Notice that "judgment is given in favor of the saints." This certainly suggests that the saints are an important part of the judgment.

See Desmond Ford's statement in his book, Daniel, page 148:

"In verse 22, it is said that judgment (or "vindication" as some would translate it) is given for the saints. The Aramaic preposition here introduces a dative of advantage. Judgment is always a "doubleheader." It condemns the wicked and vindicates the righteous. Too often expositors have seen only one group or the other as concerned by the great assize, but as in Matthew 25: 31-46 and elsewhere, both parties are ultimately involved."

[John317]

...If the vision is the duration then you have one of two choices, neither of which work for Adventists.

I'm willing to work from the viewpoint that it can be translated as either "until when" or "how long."

Notice that the SDA Bible Commentary gives this literal rendering of Daniel 8: 13:

"How long the vision, the continual, the desolating transgression to give both sanctuary and host to trampling."

It appears that the angel understood the question to be "when [or how long it would be until] the sanctuary would cease to be desolated and trampled underfoot," for the answer is that the sanctuary shall be cleansed in 2,300 evening-mornings.

Originally Posted By: tall73

If the activity of the little horn spans the vision, there are two possible visions that people debate. There is the whole vision, starting with the activity of the ram in its various directions, which pre-dates in fact the Adventist starting point.

Daniel is asking about the vision regarding the little-horn and the desolation of the sanctuary. Notice that verse 17 puts "the vision" "in the time of the end" so as to show "what would happen in the latter time of the indignation" (v. 19). Verse 26 says the vision was to be sealed because it refers to "many days in the future." This would not be referring to the vision about the ram and the goat. The ram would appear during Daniel's lifetime, and the goat would appear on the world stage in only a few hundred years. That certainly would not be "in the time of the end."

It seems clear, then, that Daniel was concerned above all about the vision regarding the little-horn power which casts down the place of God's sanctuary and casts truth down to the ground (vvs. 11, 12).

Originally Posted By: tallx73

Or there is the vision only with reference particularly to the activities of the little horn itself--which start after the usual Adventist starting point.

In other words, duration just doesn't work for the Adventist position. However, termination might.

The little-horn activities of Daniel 8 include both pagan and papal Rome.

How is that "after the usual Adventist starting point"?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

If a record of sins is maintained, then how would you harmonize that with what God Himself pronounced:

Hebrews 10:16-17

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

In effect, you are saying God keeps a record of sins He forgets? Does that make sense?

You asked a good and reasonable question here, Samie.

The quick answer is that while the blood of Jesus covers our sins that we repent of and confess, our sins are not blotted out of the "books" in heaven until the Investigative Judgment.

That's the problem, brother. You did not provide any verse from the Bible that proves your contention man's sins are written in the "books" of heaven. Before going into the other details of your post, can we first finish this issue of what biblical evidence can you give to prove that man's sins are written in the 'books' of heaven and not blotted out until the IJ? Where in Scriptures, please? If none, would you be humble enough to admit there's none?

[BobRyan]

In Dan 7 the Ancient of Days - moves TO the courtroom.

Turns out - God can move.