The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[BobRyan]

In Heb 9 - the daily and the inauguration are clearly depicted. Your argument against that relies heavily on the notion that God is not actually in the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: tall73

...So I agree this gives an example of in absentia judgment. And it gives an example of pre-Advent judgment. However, it is not the Adventist investigative judgment, as it it is not just on the professed people of God.

Rather it shows God judgment of the nations and the little horn power, and delivers the sants as a unit.

SDAs have never taught or believed that the Investigative Judgment is just about the professed people of God. We've always taught that it also deals with judgment against the little-horn power.

It seems pretty obvious to me from Scripture that the Judgment which occurs before the Second Coming distinguishes between those who are saints and those who aren't.

Rev. 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Eccles. 12:13-14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matthew 12:36

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

NOTE: There must be a record of some kind of all our actions, our words, and even the secret things. According to Scripture, these are all taken into account in the Judgment.

These texts are not referring to the Investigative Judgment. They say nothing about being taking place before the Second Coming.

Revelation chapter twenty-two says absolutely nothing about any Judgment.

Ecclesiastes chapter twelve talks about a Judgment, a judgment that judges everyone. It says nothing about there being a big court room judgment as your IJ fantasy talks about.

Matthew chapter twelve requires humans to be at the Judgment because they must give an "account". Thus, this cannot be the IJ either.

Again, you are "fishing" for any text that uses judgment and/or infers judgment and trying to make them all talk about the IJ. You know perfectly well that this is not the case.

Again shoddy theology.

[miz3]

But as John317 clearly stated, some of us have a life away from the computer. If you go back several pages in this thread, you will find a labrynth of scriptures that do stick, and hold the Investigative Judgment doctrine as sound and in place, but you and miz3, and a host of you, choose to be in denial against these irrefutable truths.

Over the years, I have learned some lessons in my approach to understanding the scriptures. I used to be over-analytical in my approach to the Hebrew and the Greek, and before I know it, I found myself able to interpret one passage in several different ways all saying something different. I began to realize that this approach is done without the Holy Spirit, and is a skeptics method.

I learned to just let the words speak to me in their plain simplicity as God intended the Bible to be for the common man.

Since then, when I read Daniel 7, it is so abundantly plain---the judgment commences after the Little Horn, but BEFORE the Second Coming.

Then you compare that with Daniel 8, and you can't help but make the 2300 days terminate in 1844. It's based on the simplicity that a child can understand.

"Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise." (Matthew 21:16)

If you do this, you will see that your heart will be more receptive to the Spirit, and those who are responding to the Spirit will see the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment. I believe that those who reject it are not responding to the Spirit of God in all humility.

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a soul-testing truth, because it overwhelmingly emphasizes the importance of putting away sin out of our lives and that Jesus is soon to come as He is in his final stages of ministration.

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment DESTROYS the "Once Saved Always Saved" heresy.

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment DESTROYS the "Calvinistic Predestination theology"

Adventists have the necessary tools to dismantle ALL other false beliefs.

In fact, it is the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment that provides Adventists the necessary tools to dismantle Dispensationalism.

Without our Historicist Adventist teachings, Dispensationalism has the upper-hand.

Pre-millennial Dispensationalists teach a temporal millennium, for example, but yet they have to account for the fact that we are caught up into the clouds and taken to heaven. So to reconcile this with the fact that we will reign on the earth, they have to create a pre-tribulation rapture, where the saints end up coming back to this earth 7 years later.

Non-Adventist Historicist Premillennialists also believe in a temporal millennium, but they do not believe we will be caught up and taken to heaven. They believe the mansions prepared for them will be here on earth, which is contrary to scripture. Then they go on to say that yes, we are caught up into the clouds, but then we are set right back down on the earth!

You see now why the Pre-millennial Dispensationalist has the upper-hand? Because they have provided a solution to try and reconcile the problem, but the Premillennial Historicist finds himself in an untenable situation where he has to leave out scriptures in order to try and refute the pre-tribulation rapture.

But guess what?

The Adventist Historicist solves BOTH of the problems! There is NO temporal millennium, hence no need to return 7 years later! And this accounts for the fact that the saints are caught up to heaven!

This is just one tiny example of how Adventist Historicism resolves the many insurmountable theological problems in Christianity.

[EDITED SIGNIFICANTLY]

I see no reason to use all this "historicist" gibberish along with others gibberish theories. You are so wrapped up in "intellectual snobbery" language and theories that you forget the plain language of the Bible is all that is necessary.

You say in the beginning that you let the "words of the Bible speak to you" and then later you go on about how it is actually not the Words of the Bible but the Historicist View that blows everything out of the water.

Which is it?

Is it the simple Word of the Bible or is it the "intellectual gibberish" of the Historicist View that wins? Please make up your mind.

You are clearly a most confused person and it shows clearly in your writings.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Samie

I just hope this issue is addressed soon. But I will patiently wait.

That question was answered some time ago.

Your question is based on an unbiblical assumption, "If..."

All sins have not already been forgiven and taken away, and there is definitely a record of sins.

Consider:

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 12:23

Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

NOTE: The above verses prove without a doubt that all sins were not forgiven at the cross. 1 John 1: 9 proves that the forgiveness of our sins is conditioned upon our repentence and sincere confession. Herod was killed by the angel of the Lord because of his sins, and this would make no sense if Herod's sins were already all forgiven. Peter puts the forgiveness of our sins in the future and conditioned upon repentence.

The following verses prove that there is some kind of record kept of our words and actions, whether they are good or bad.

Eccles. 12:13-14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matthew 12:36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

The Scriptures themselves say plainly that the heavenly sanctuary needs to be cleansed.

Hebrews 9:23

Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified [cleansed] with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

This is a COLOSSAL EXAMPLE OF CONFUSION.

Many shallow theologians use this cut/paste method which actually takes the texts out of their TRUE CONTEXT and applies them to their "PET THEORY".

This poster is known to use this method all the time in order to support their erroneous theories.

1John 1:9 is not a text that shows that only "some" sins were forgiven at the cross. What a waste of the Cross if God/Jesus Christ went through all of that just to forgive "only some sins".

This text has nothing but nothing to do with the Justification Process. This text refers to those who have already been Justified and are being Sanctified.

This type of use of Scripture shows how uneducated people can become confused concerning what the Scriptures actually say and/or how these same people quote erroneously to support their pet theories.

The rest of the cited texts are equally misused and misapplied from what the Bible actually is saying.

[tall73]

The little-horn activities of Daniel 8 include both pagan and papal Rome.

How is that "after the usual Adventist starting point"?

The actual activities of the little horn against the saints would start after the 457 date that Adventists use to calculate the 2,300 evening/mornings.

If you take the vision as duration then you have to start the days with the start of the activity.

[tall73]

I suppose if you all seem interested in the back and forth discussion I can clarify a few things.

Are you sure?

Daniel 7:22

... the Ancient of Days came, and judgment [vindication] was given for [in favor of] the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

Notice that "judgment is given in favor of the saints." This certainly suggests that the saints are an important part of the judgment.

See Desmond Ford's statement in his book, Daniel, page 148:

"In verse 22, it is said that judgment (or "vindication" as some would translate it) is given for the saints. The Aramaic preposition here introduces a dative of advantage. Judgment is always a "doubleheader." It condemns the wicked and vindicates the righteous. Too often expositors have seen only one group or the other as concerned by the great assize, but as in Matthew 25: 31-46 and elsewhere, both parties are ultimately involved."

I already noted that the saints were part of it, as they were vindicated against their adversary.

What was pointed out is that there is no confusion about who is a saint, who is the little horn. One is being persecuted, the other is persecuting. There is not picture of individual judgment to see who gets to be what.

It is a picture of God's judging the nations and deliverance of His saints.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In Dan 7 the Ancient of Days - moves TO the courtroom.

Turns out - God can move.

Originally Posted By: tall73

Turns out anyone who read Ezekiel already knew that. But when He was moving it was to take a tour around the land. Which actually fits pretty well with then judging the nations. It is up to you to demonstrate from the text what you are trying to find there.

Back to Daniel 7.

in that case The courtroom scene is setup in NT times - after the division of the pagan Roman empire.

In Daniel 7 the Ancient of Days comes to the Court room - and so also does the Son of God move - to the Court Room.

Jesus shows up at a different time.If follow the chronology of the text Jesus shows up after the books part. Of course, the chronology part here is altogether unclear, which is part of the challenge of the section.

Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Dan 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

Dan 7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Moreover, God has always judged the nations which we are getting a picture of here.

Dan 2:21 He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding

Now, He certainly could have been touring the little horn scene at the time, but that is just the point. It doesn't say where He came from.

So much of your interpretation is based on reading into the text what it doesn't say.

It doesn't picture judgment on individual believers in Daniel 7, it shows them persecuted as a group then delivered as a group.

It doesn't show God coming from one part of the sanctuary to another. Yet you say that must be what happened, even though the only precedent we have for the moving throne is something else--leaving the sanctuary.

If you have to look so hard for it there maybe it is not the best text to use to demonstrate it.

[tall73]

The entire notion that God is not in the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary - is absolutely without Biblical basis.

in Christ,

Bob

Since I am not sure exactly what you are saying I will let you clarify.

[tall73]

Heb 9 mentions the inauguration specifically. This did not happen on the Day of Atonement - and so it undermines your proposal for Heb 9.

No, it doesn't.

The type had sacrifices over and over. But there was only one sacrifice in the fulfillment.

The ministry in the earthly had many entries into the sanctuary. But there was only one in the fulfillment.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

His entry into the sanctuary was once for all. Yet both the inauguration and the Day of Atonement required an entry, as did some sins for the whole community, etc.

But they are all fulfilled in one.

You have to read the fulfillment as it states, not try to reason from the type. The fulfillment is better than the type.

Now, He also fulfilled the red heifer,

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

And the ratification of the covenant with blood.

That is the point. The blood work was all done at once. It was not many deaths, many entries, many presentations. It was one death, one entry and one presentation.

But the fact that you refer to the inauguration shows that you admit the entry extended to the MHP, as the inauguration extended there.

[tall73]

Furthermore - Heb 7 introduced this teaching stating that the High Priest offers sacrifices "daily".

Thus even the reference to Christ as High Priest in Heb 9 does not created the negation of the daily service that your ideas require.

Bob, quote the text.

It introduces the daily sacrifice of the priest to CONTRAST it with Jesus' once for all work.

He didn't need a protracted daily bloody work. He did it once and it actually had effect.

Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

[Dr. Rich]

How the Atonement worked as it showed what happens and what takes place at the end:

1. Jesus is our high priest and He said He has become sanctified so that we also CAN become sanctified. (John 17) If the High priest did not have his sins cleansed, then no on else could either.

2. Next in line for sanctification are the first fruits, the 144k as the "priests" found in Rev. 5:9-10. This happens prior to the tribulation and all of them become sanctified/sealed by God. Notice that if the priest tribe did not have their sins cleansed then no on else could either.

3. The original Atonement called for the next group, it being the whole Kingdom (KOH) to have their sins cleansed. They are represented by the "Kingdom" in Rev. 5:9-10. At the end, this group is represented by the ten virgins, 5 of whom are wise and do have their sins cleansed/become sanctified/sealed by God just prior to the tribulation. After this event, the goat of removal had the sins placed upon him and he was led out into the wilderness (representing the nations of the world), but was not killed.

Please notice that these first two groups of the three found in Rev. 17:14, the called, chosen and faithful, are sanctified/sealed by God prior to the time of trouble when Jesus comes like a thief-not the same event as the coming in the clouds.

4. Also please notice, that everything should be over at this point and it is why you will find these words in Rev. 7:13 "These who are clothed in the white robes, WHO ARE THEY AND FROM WHERE HAVE THEY COME?". This great multitude from every nation, all tribes, and race of people and tongues is none other than the BRIDE who have become cleansed/sanctified becauese of the actions or work the servants for the Bride, the 5 wise virgins (and perhaps the 144k) did to get the bride ready as found in Rev. 19:7-9.

5. All during this time, the deeds/work being done by the 144k and 5 wise, who are the group found in Rev. 12:17, battle with the nations of the world. The battle is not with bombs and bullets, but truth against lies. Yes, many who have become sealed by God will gladly give up thier lives in order to help save as many (the bride) as possible during the time of trouble even thought it is not a test for them as found in Rev. 3:10. It is their blood found in Rev. 6:9-11 that cry out "how long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth"?

I hope this helps you to understand the truth regarding the judgment(s) and what events will soon happen and why. Enjoy

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: tall73

...Again we see actions taken against powers in the judgment, the stripping of authority of nations and the condemnation of the little horn. It is not just a judgment on individual believers. In fact, it doesn't reference specifically judgment on individual believers in Daniel 7, but speaks of the saints as a whole being delivered and receiving the kingdom.

You're right that the IJ isn't just a judgment on individual believers. SDAs have never said it was.

However, it does include a judgment on believers.

It distinguishes between genuine believers and those who merely claim to be.

Many people make claims-- the IJ looks at the motives and the heart, not merely at our claims.

Consider:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

NOTE: There will be people who thought they were doing God's will even while they were disobeying God's law and yet they evidently believed it was OK. Could it be that these were Christians who accepted the false teaching that God's law was done away with or was irrelevent?

Also notice that these people who are rejected made a false profession of faith in Christ, but their actions show they never really meant what they claimed.

And without the Investigative Judgment "God might be fooled"?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: tall73

.... the whole focus is on the nations and then the little horn that are at that time ruling the saints (before the reign of Jesus).

Now Ellen White says on [only? ed.] the cases of the professed believers are considered.

Yes, here's what she wrote:

Quote:

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. "Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel?" 1 Peter 4:17. {GC 480.1}

QUESTION: Are not the Roman Catholic Church and the papacy-- the little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8-- among the "professed people of God"?

They consider themselves "the people of God". They call themselves such in their catechisms and in the Vatican II documents.

Of course, many Catholics will be saved, and therefore, many in the Roman Catholic Church are truly "the people of God." The IJ distinguishes the true from the false. That is one of its main purposes.

Notice what Jesus tells the church of Thyatira-- the church of the Middle Ages, as SDAs understand it-- in His letter to the Christians of that period:

Rev. 2:23--

And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.

Observe that the search of people's minds and hearts is in the context of giving to each professed believer as his work deserves-- clearly a judgment.

Ok, here it comes, the RCC/Pope bashing.

[Lysimachus]

I see no reason to use all this "historicist" gibberish along with others gibberish theories. You are so wrapped up in "intellectual snobbery" language and theories that you forget the plain language of the Bible is all that is necessary.

You say in the beginning that you let the "words of the Bible speak to you" and then later you go on about how it is actually not the Words of the Bible but the Historicist View that blows everything out of the water.

Which is it?

Is it the simple Word of the Bible or is it the "intellectual gibberish" of the Historicist View that wins? Please make up your mind.

You are clearly a most confused person and it shows clearly in your writings.

Do not stretch my words out of proportion. The fact is, the simple words of the Bible describe a historicist truth. To believe that 70 weeks equates 490 years IS a Historicist principle. It's just a quick way of saying "Bible prophecy being recognized as a progression and continual unbroken chain throughout human history, from the dawn of man to the consummation of all things by which recognizes the day-for-year principle in it's timetables".

Would you rather have me give that long explanation every time?

Let's just stick to "Historicism".

I have given enough reasons why the only way to make the 2300 days workout is to understand them in a historicist light. Otherwise, I challenge you to find me the exact dates of where you believe this time-frame fits.

[Lysimachus]

The actual activities of the little horn against the saints would start after the 457 date that Adventists use to calculate the 2,300 evening/mornings.

If you take the vision as duration then you have to start the days with the start of the activity

You seem to be assuming that 2300 evening-mornings must commence when the Little Horn began.

The word "concerning" in 8:13 was added by the translators, and it is more likely that the vision being asked about would start sometime "during" the time of the Ram, not at the start of the Ram. Remember, at the beginning of Daniel 8 in verse 3, Daniel "saw, and behold, there stood before the river a ram". So the point here is, Daniel's vision (chazon) commences during the Ram's existence, so the 2300 would commence during the Ram's existence, not at the start of the Ram's existence.

An acceptable translation is: "How long the vision, the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?"

In other words, "how long is all this garbage going to last?".

Now, when the angel Gabriel responded said "unto 2300 days", obviously the angel would start the 2300 during the sanctuary's full operation. However, during the 2300 years, there was a shift from the earthly to the heavenly in circa 31 A.D.

457 B.C., according to Ezra 7, is when the Temple commenced its full priestly function when the priests and temple servants came up to the temple in the seventh year of the King of Artaxerxes (verse 7), and the king gave the priests and others to go to Jerusalem (verse 13), and the priests and people could bring their freewill offerings for the temple of their God in Jerusalem (verse 16), and with this money they could buy bulls, rams, male lambs, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and sacrifice them on the altar of the temple of their God in Jerusalem (verse 17). Verse 19 shows that they could deliver to the God of Jerusalem ALL the articles entrusted to them for worship IN the temple of their God (verse 19), and ANYTHING ELSE needed for the temple of their God that they were responsible to supply, they may provide from the royal treasury (verse 20). Verse 23 gives authorization that whatever God has prescribed, let it be done with diligence for the temple of the God of heaven.

Therefore, when a sanctuary is "cleansed", this cleansing would only be at the end of the prophetic time period given, for which the sanctuary would only be in full operation during this allotted time period.

[John317]

... You did not provide any verse from the Bible that proves your contention man's sins are written in the "books" of heaven. Before going into the other details of your post, can we first finish this issue of what biblical evidence can you give to prove that man's sins are written in the 'books' of heaven and not blotted out until the IJ? Where in Scriptures, please? If none, would you be humble enough to admit there's none?

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Daniel 7:10

A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

Eccles. 12:14

For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

2 Cor. 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Matthew 12:36-37

"I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, [37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Rev. 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

NOTE: The biblical evidence is crystal clear that in the Judgment, people are judged according to what they have done and said, whether good or evil, according to the evidence written in "books," i.e., recorded in some way. The word of God says that this includes even "every secret thing, whether good or evil." People are indeed "judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."

I would certainly be humble enough to admit it if it wasn't there, but it is there.

Would you be humble enough to admit the biblical evidence shows that all our good and bad deeds, even our words and "every secret thing", are recorded in "books"?

[Lysimachus]

So much of your interpretation is based on reading into the text what it doesn't say.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this isolated method of interpretation. It is absolutely fair and right to interpret things beyond what a text says in a number of instances. For example, if a text says, "the Hittites won the battle", but does not say "the Egyptians lost the battle", should we conclude that we can only say what the text says, and that it would be wrong to conclude that the Egyptians lost the battle? Or is it correct to imply various principles into the text even though the text does not read that?

Absolutely it is safe to do this.

Daniel 8 is jam-packed with principles. And they can be derived, not by the texts alone, but by logical deduction, prayer, eyesalve, and spiritual insight guided by the Holy Spirit. I believe God guided the deep minds of our pioneers, such as James White, Uriah Smith, J.N. Andrews, J.N. Loughborough, A.T. Jones, W.W. Prescott, E.J. Waggoner, etc. etc. etc.

A logical deduction would be that the saints are implicated in the judgment. Unequivocally.

Also, it is wrong to say that if the Bible doesn't say it, then it must not be. Ellen White, for example, who was given deep insight tells us that our confessed sins transfer into the sanctuary. In order for Ellen White to "contradict scripture", there would have to be a text that says "sins do NOT transfer into the sanctuary". But no text says they do not transfer into the sanctuary, therefore, for Ellen White to say so does not "contradict" scripture, she is only fulfilling her role in providing extra insight and detail the scriptures do not clarify.

That is all.

She is not "adding" to scriptures either. She's filling in details between the lines.

And that's what progressive light throughout the ages does.

[Lysimachus]

Ok, here it comes, the RCC/Pope bashing.

You know what I think? I think we've done too much Satan bashing. We need to quit being so mean to Satan. Mhmm..yeah.

Therefore, we better quit bashing the Pope too, because Satan operates his kingdom and his throne through the Pope.

>.<

[John317]

There was no daily service at all in heaven prior to Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Heb 8 makes it clear that the Heavenly service begins after the cross. The daily service being identified in Heb 9 begins after the inauguration of the heavenly sanctuary also mentioned in Heb 9.

Very important points, Bob.

Christ was not our High Priest in the Holy Place in heaven until after His death, resurrection and ascension.

[John317]

One of the purposes of the Investigative Judgment is to distinguish between those who are Christ's true followers and those who merely made a claim to be His followers but who "made the choice to sin and keep on sinning."

Originally Posted By: miz3

Are you saying that God does not know this and has not always known this?

This is direct contradiction to the Bible.

No, that is not what I'm saying. Of course God knows.

Again, the IJ is not in order for God to learn anything. He already knows all things.

The IJ is for the whole universe of intelligent beings to learn the truth.

The Bible teaches that the intelligent creatures in God's universe are interested in, and learning from, what is happening on this earth:

1 Peter 1:12

It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

Ephes. 3:10

... through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

Job 2:1-6

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord. [2] And the Lord said to Satan, "From where have you come?" Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." [3] And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason." [4] Then Satan an swered the Lord and said, "Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. [5] But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face." [6] And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life."

Daniel 7:9-10

As I looked,

thrones were placed,

and the Ancient of days took his seat;

his clothing was white as snow,

and the hair of his head like pure wool;

his throne was fiery flames;

its wheels were burning fire.

[10] A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

Rev. 16:4-6

The third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood. [5] And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink.

It is what they deserve!"

Rev. 19:1-7

After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out,

"Hallelujah!

Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

[2] for his judgments are true and just;

for he has judged the great prostitute

who corrupted the earth with her immorality,

and has avenged on her the blood of his servants."

[3] Once more they cried out,

"Hallelujah!

The smoke from her goes up forever and ever."

[4] And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!" [5] And from the throne came a voice saying,

"Praise our God,

all you his servants,

you who fear him,

small and great."

[6] Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

"Hallelujah!

For the Lord our God

the Almighty reigns.

[7] Let us rejoice and exult

and give him the glory,

for the marriage of the Lamb has come,

and his Bride has made herself ready.

[John317]

....All sins have not already been forgiven and taken away...

Consider:

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

NOTE: The above verse proves without a doubt that all sins were not forgiven at the cross. 1 John 1: 9 proves that the forgiveness of our sins is conditioned upon our repentence and sincere confession.

Originally Posted By: miz3

1John 1:9 is not a text that shows that only "some" sins were forgiven at the cross. What a waste of the Cross if God/Jesus Christ went through all of that just to forgive "only some sins".

What 1 John 1: 9 shows is that forgiveness of our sins is conditioned upon our repentence and confession. Christ shed His blood at the cross for our forgiveness, and He paid the penalty for all sins that anyone would ever commit, but people are not forgiven of their sins until they repent of them and confess them.

Where does the Bible teach that forgiveness is unconditional and occurs even when people don't repent and confess their sins?

Nowhere does the book of Acts say the disciples or apostles preached that all sins have already been forgiven.

[Lysimachus]

John317,

It seems that the central argument of tall73 is that the cleansing of the sanctuary is not the cleansing of confessed sins by the saints, but the cleansing of sins that are not confessed and polluted the sanctuary. Is this what you are gathering?

If so, I think you and I need to start zeroing in on this particular point he's making more. What do you think?

[John317]

The Investigative Judgment distinguishes between genuine believers and those who merely claim to be.

Many people make claims-- the IJ looks at the motives and the heart, not merely at our claims.

Consider:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

NOTE: There will be people who thought they were doing God's will even while they were disobeying God's law and yet they evidently believed it was OK. Could it be that these were Christians who accepted the false teaching that God's law was done away with or was irrelevent?

Also notice that these people who are rejected made a false profession of faith in Christ, but their actions show they never really meant what they claimed.

Originally Posted By: miz3

And without the Investigative Judgment "God might be fooled"?

Absolutely not.

Again, the Investigative Judgment is not for the purpose of teaching God anything. God doesn't learn anything from the Investigative Judgment. He already knows all things.

The Investigative Judgment is really for the purpose of creatures learning something important about sin and about God. In this Judgment, the little-horn power is condemned, along with those who support the little-horn power; judgment is given in favor of the saints; and God's justice and righteousness are clearly demonstrated before the entire onlooking universe.

[Gail]

We are told that God is righteous and His law is just and righteous.

The investigative judgement gives the proof of that to those who can't read the heart.

[John317]

Yes, great point. That's it exactly.

God doesn't have to involve the intelligent creatures of the universe in the judgment-- He could make the decisions Himself and simply announce the verdicts-- but He invites human beings as well as the unfallen angels to take part.

1 Cor. 6:3

Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

Daniel 7:10

A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.