The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[John317]

I don't agree with all the particulars of the the Adventist IJ, but I think it is fair to say that there will be investigation.

It is just that most of the texts indicate that the person being investigated will be present and that is not the case with the Adventist IJ. And most of the investigation winds up being the person confessing and bowing the knee (which also can't happen at the Adventist IJ as they are not present).

The judgment scene in Daniel 7 takes place outside the presence of those being judged. The ones being judged are on the earth while the judgment is taking place in heaven.

The little-horn power is unaware that he is being judged. Notice that in verse 11, Daniel says the little-horn is speaking "pompous words" during the judgment.

Also notice that during this judgment, or court-scene, many tens of thousands consider what is written in the books.

Interestingly, in this scene, God the Father is portrayed as waiting for the judgment to begin. His throne has wheels (v. 9). Now, there's only one reason for wheels, and that's for the purpose of movement. So God's throne moves.

Then in verse 13, we have Jesus Christ coming to the Father. The result of the judgment is that Jesus Christ receives dominion and glory and an everlasting kingdom. Verse 26 also says that the little-horn is condemned so that he loses his dominion.

The point here is that all this happens without the little-horn being present in heaven while the judgment against him is taking place, since he is still active on the earth.

By the way, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were also judged and condemned without being present. Same with the people who were destroyed in the Flood. None of those people knew they had been judged. Spiritual Babylon also won't know they've been judged until the Seven Last Plagues fall on them.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: tall73

I don't agree with all the particulars of the the Adventist IJ, but I think it is fair to say that there will be investigation.

It is just that most of the texts indicate that the person being investigated will be present and that is not the case with the Adventist IJ. And most of the investigation winds up being the person confessing and bowing the knee (which also can't happen at the Adventist IJ as they are not present).

The judgment scene in Daniel 7 takes place without the presence of those being judged. The ones being judged are on the earth while the judgment is taking place in heaven.

The little-horn power is unaware that he is being judged. Notice that in verse 11, Daniel says the little-horn is speaking "pompous words" during the judgment.

Also notice that during this judgment, or court-scene, many tens of thousands consider what is written in the books.

Interestingly, in this scene, God the Father is portrayed as waiting for the judgment to begin. His throne has wheels (v. 9). Now, there's only one reason for wheels, and that's for the purpose of movement. So God's throne moves.

Then in verse 13, we have Jesus Christ coming to the Father. The result of the judgment is that Jesus Christ receives dominion and glory and an everlasting kingdom. Verse 26 also says that the little-horn is condemned so that he loses his dominion.

The point here is that all this happens without the little-horn being present in heaven while the judgment against him is taking place, since he is still active on the earth.

Astutely stated!

Stephen Bohr's new series "His Way Is In The Sanctuary" really puts these subjects into clear perspective. 16 of them out of the 32 have been uploaded to YouTube so far. I plan to post them in here eventually.

[John317]

Wonderful. Thanks very much. I'll enjoy watching them.

[BobRyan]

I don't agree with all the particulars of the the Adventist IJ, but I think it is fair to say that there will be investigation.

It is just that most of the texts indicate that the person being investigated will be present and that is not the case with the Adventist IJ.

In Dan 7 - the judgment takes place before the persecution of the saints ends - and before the saints take possession of the Kingdom. (And after the fall of the pagan Roman empire).

Thus it is pre-second coming. And as Daniel 7 points out - it is according to the things written in "books".

Rev 14 also makes this clear - it is while both the saints and the wicked are on earth "The hour of His judgment has come".

In the book of Daniel - when the king of Babylon was weighed and judged and found wanting - it was while he was alive - and he was not personally present for the event.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Very good points, Bob.

So we have many examples of Judgment of people without their being present at their judgment.

Interestingly, and significantly, God sent people warning ahead of time that they were about to be judged.

Similarly, the world today has received warning of the judgment that's passing in heaven, but only a relative few are paying attention.

Satan finds all kind of diversions for people-- anything to keep them preoccupied and busy being entertained or in some way concentrating on the things of this world.

Millions get excited about a ball game, but how many get excited about Jesus, the Judgment, or His Second Coming?

[John317]

I think those who believe in the Investigative Judgment have given up. They have no where to go except Ellen White and Ellen White is NOT SCRIPTURE.

People have a life outside of the computer, miz3.

The truth is that this discussion is just getting started.

[tall73]

The judgment scene in Daniel 7 takes place outside the presence of those being judged. The ones being judged are on the earth while the judgment is taking place in heaven.

The little-horn power is unaware that he is being judged. Notice that in verse 11, Daniel says the little-horn is speaking "pompous words" during the judgment.

Also notice that during this judgment, or court-scene, many tens of thousands consider what is written in the books.

I agree with all this. The Daniel 7 judgment is a pre-advent judgment.

Quote:

Interestingly, in this scene, God the Father is portrayed as waiting for the judgment to begin. His throne has wheels (v. 9). Now, there's only one reason for wheels, and that's for the purpose of movement. So God's throne moves.

Yes, we saw this in Ezekiel too, but then it was for moving outside the sanctuary.

Then in verse 13, we have Jesus Christ coming to the Father. The result of the judgment is that Jesus Christ receives dominion and glory and an everlasting kingdom. Verse 26 also says that the little-horn is condemned so that he loses his dominion.

The point here is that all this happens without the little-horn being present in heaven while the judgment against him is taking place, since he is still active on the earth.

By the way, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were also judged and condemned without being present. Same with the people who were destroyed in the Flood. None of those people knew they had been judged. Spiritual Babylon also won't know they've been judged until the Seven Last Plagues fall on them.

Agree with all that.

However, the judgment in Daniel 7 is not on individual believers but the saints are delivered as a group and the little horn power is judged.

Moreover, the other nations are also judged by God:

Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

However, the nations of Medes and Persians and Babylon are not all professed people of God. Even the little horn power by Adventist reckoning would not all be necessarily professed followers as some are following due to power rather than profession of Christ.

So I agree this gives an example of in absentia judgment. And it gives an example of pre-Advent judgment. However, it is not the Adventist investigative judgment, as it it is not just on the professed people of God.

Rather it shows God judgment of the nations and the little horn power, and delivers the sants as a unit. There was no doubt throughout the vision who the saints were, no evaluation of their merits individually, and the little horn is judged during this judgment.

Now in my recent discussions on the topic I have noted God MAY in fact have an Adventist IJ for all I know. I just don't see the evidence of all the criteria being met in any description in the Scriptures.

The criteria would include:

pre-advent

only on professed believers

in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type

in absentia

in 1844

etc.

[tall73]

The above are my general thoughts at this time anyway. I am deciding how involved I really want to get in this thread. So feel free to respond and I may or may not continue in the discussion. I have been reading through up to this point and may just want to see what the current arguments for the doctrine are before getting into back and forth too much.

[John317]

...So I agree this gives an example of in absentia judgment. And it gives an example of pre-Advent judgment. However, it is not the Adventist investigative judgment, as it it is not just on the professed people of God.

Rather it shows God judgment of the nations and the little horn power, and delivers the sants as a unit.

SDAs have never taught or believed that the Investigative Judgment is just about the professed people of God. We've always taught that it also deals with judgment against the little-horn power.

It seems pretty obvious to me from Scripture that the Judgment which occurs before the Second Coming distinguishes between those who are saints and those who aren't.

Rev. 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Eccles. 12:13-14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matthew 12:36

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

NOTE: There must be a record of some kind of all our actions, our words, and even the secret things. According to Scripture, these are all taken into account in the Judgment.

[John317]

...

Now in my recent discussions on the topic I have noted God MAY in fact have an Adventist IJ for all I know. I just don't see the evidence of all the criteria being met in any description in the Scriptures.

The criteria would include:

pre-advent

only on professed believers

in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type

in absentia

in 1844

etc.

We'll be dealing with all those issues, and much more, as we continue our study.

We can only cover so much at any one time, so we have a long ways to go. We're just getting started and have only considered a fraction of the Bible evidence.

[tall73]

SDAs have never taught or believed that the Investigative Judgment is just about the professed people of God. We've always taught that it also deals with judgment against the little-horn power.

It would seem we agree that Daniel 7 deals with the judgment on the little horn.

However, I still have a bit of an issue.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period.

Great Controversy, Chapter 28, Facing Life's Record.

Now if if the Daniel 7 judgment includes nations and the little horn power, some of which may be in it for the power, not due to any profession of God, then that raises the issue of whether this meets Ellen White's criteria.

Again we see actions taken against powers in the judgment, the stripping of authority of nations and the condemnation of the little horn. It is not just a judgment on individual believers. In fact, it doesn't reference specifically judgment on individual believers in Daniel 7, but speaks of the saints as a whole being delivered and receiving the kingdom.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I think those who believe in the Investigative Judgment have given up. They have no where to go except Ellen White and Ellen White is NOT SCRIPTURE.

People have a life outside of the computer, miz3.

The truth is that this discussion is just getting started.

I agree with Miz3 here, and besides, what difference does it make anyway? Believe what you want to believe and when you are judged, make sure you know the real truth because believing and practicing and voicing a lie will not make you very happy. (See Rev. 21:8 and 22:15)

[Lysimachus]

What tall73 does not realize is that while the judgment is directed on the Little Horn, it also implicates the saints.

It's very simple.

The little horn attacks the sanctuary.

What does the sanctuary represent?

It's a symbol of God's spiritual sanctuary on earth. The minds of the people.

The little horn polluted the minds of the people.

To cleanse the sanctuary includes to remove the errors, false teachings, and damage done by the little horn from the minds of the people.

No matter which way you look at it, the saints are implicated with this judgment.

The judgment includes a complete separation from Rome--a COMPLETION of the Reformation.

That's exactly what Adventists began to do in 1844.

This is in alignment with what numerous expositors around the globe believed prior to 1844.

If you read Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers Volume 4, you will find that many did not believe Jesus was coming in the 1840s (or terminus of the 2300 days), but a number of them actually taught that there would be a REVIVAL and REFORMATION BACK to APOSTOLIC TIMES. That God's people would be CLEANSED. Why that's closer to the truth than even William Miller had it on this particular point!

Cleansing a sanctuary (or vindicating/making right) includes God's people, as the heavenly literal sanctuary mirrors the earthly spiritual sanctuary, and vice versa. What goes on in the heavenly sanctuary is a reflection of what is going on down here on earth with God's people.

If you think about it, it makes perfect sense.

The Little Horn polluted the minds of millions of people.

In order the Little Horn to be judged and condemned, God's people have to be rid of sin. Be rid of the filth instilled into them from this Little Horn.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: John317

People have a life outside of the computer, miz3.

The truth is that this discussion is just getting started.

I agree with Miz3 here, and besides, what difference does it make anyway? Believe what you want to believe and when you are judged, make sure you know the real truth because believing and practicing and voicing a lie will not make you very happy. (See Rev. 21:8 and 22:15)

Dr. Rich, I think you meant you agree with John317, am I right? Otherwise your response makes no sense in connection with what he said.

[skyblue888]

"In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period." The

Great Controversy, Chapter 28, Facing Life's Record.

This statement quoted by Tall73 is clear and there are many others like it.

In the investigative judgment of the dead and of the living none are considered but the professed people of God.

The little horn and all those who supported her and the wicked of all ages will be judged during the thousand years and they too will be absent while they are being judged.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, It appears that everyone who wanted to 'prove' IJ by the way of the bible have given up because they can't. Now it appears that John317 and you want to keep the thread going for some unknown reason and I simply said "who really cares" as NO ONE HERE came here to be taught, but to throw stuff on the wall hoping it would stick, but none did (as again Miz3 wrote).

God does not and never had to 'investigate' because He already knows everything. In fact, He already knows who the sheep and goats are right now! By just saying there is an IJ, means that you intentionaly limit God's ability to know everything already.

As Rev. 11:1 shows, there will be a judgment for the 144k and the ten virgins BEFORE the time of trouble and Rev. 11:2 a judgment for the rest of the world. It's just that simple.

[Lysimachus]

Marcos, It appears that everyone who wanted to 'prove' IJ by the way of the bible have given up because they can't. Now it appears that John317 and you want to keep the thread going for some unknown reason and I simply said "who really cares" as NO ONE HERE came here to be taught, but to throw stuff on the wall hoping it would stick, but none did (as again Miz3 wrote).

God does not and never had to 'investigate' because He already knows everything. In fact, He already knows who the sheep and goats are right now! By just saying there is an IJ, means that you intentionaly limit God's ability to know everything already.

As Rev. 11:1 shows, there will be a judgment for the 144k and the ten virgins BEFORE the time of trouble and Rev. 11:2 a judgment for the rest of the world. It's just that simple.

But as John317 clearly stated, some of us have a life away from the computer. If you go back several pages in this thread, you will find a labrynth of scriptures that do stick, and hold the Investigative Judgment doctrine as sound and in place, but you and miz3, and a host of you, choose to be in denial against these irrefutable truths.

Over the years, I have learned some lessons in my approach to understanding the scriptures. I used to be over-analytical in my approach to the Hebrew and the Greek, and before I know it, I found myself able to interpret one passage in several different ways all saying something different. I began to realize that this approach is done without the Holy Spirit, and is a skeptics method.

I learned to just let the words speak to me in their plain simplicity as God intended the Bible to be for the common man.

Since then, when I read Daniel 7, it is so abundantly plain---the judgment commences after the Little Horn, but BEFORE the Second Coming.

Then you compare that with Daniel 8, and you can't help but make the 2300 days terminate in 1844. It's based on the simplicity that a child can understand.

"Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise." (Matthew 21:16)

If you do this, you will see that your heart will be more receptive to the Spirit, and those who are responding to the Spirit will see the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment. I believe that those who reject it are not responding to the Spirit of God in all humility.

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a soul-testing truth, because it overwhelmingly emphasizes the importance of putting away sin out of our lives and that Jesus is soon to come as He is in his final stages of ministration.

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment DESTROYS the "Once Saved Always Saved" heresy.

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment DESTROYS the "Calvinistic Predestination theology"

Adventists have the necessary tools to dismantle ALL other false beliefs.

In fact, it is the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment that provides Adventists the necessary tools to dismantle Dispensationalism.

Without our Historicist Adventist teachings, Dispensationalism has the upper-hand.

Pre-millennial Dispensationalists teach a temporal millennium, for example, but yet they have to account for the fact that we are caught up into the clouds and taken to heaven. So to reconcile this with the fact that we will reign on the earth, they have to create a pre-tribulation rapture, where the saints end up coming back to this earth 7 years later.

Non-Adventist Historicist Premillennialists also believe in a temporal millennium, but they do not believe we will be caught up and taken to heaven. They believe the mansions prepared for them will be here on earth, which is contrary to scripture. Then they go on to say that yes, we are caught up into the clouds, but then we are set right back down on the earth!

You see now why the Pre-millennial Dispensationalist has the upper-hand? Because they have provided a solution to try and reconcile the problem, but the Premillennial Historicist finds himself in an untenable situation where he has to leave out scriptures in order to try and refute the pre-tribulation rapture.

But guess what?

The Adventist Historicist solves BOTH of the problems! There is NO temporal millennium, hence no need to return 7 years later! And this accounts for the fact that the saints are caught up to heaven!

This is just one tiny example of how Adventist Historicism resolves the many insurmountable theological problems in Christianity.

[EDITED SIGNIFICANTLY]

[Guest]

But as John317 clearly stated, some of us have a life away from the computer. If you go back several pages in this thread, you will find a labrynth of scriptures that do stick, and hold the Investigative Judgment doctrine as sound and in place, but you and miz3, and a host of you, choose to be in denial against these irrefutable truths.

Aaaaaaaaa Man!

I think it's funny how Rich will say that the SDA church is the Kingdom of Heaven, and then turn around and attack the foundation of adventism. And try to tear down the very doctrines that are her only reason for even existing. Ha!

If the SDA Church had a few more friends like him, they wouldn't need any enemies.

And to Rich:

God didn't raise this people up for a special purpose, by using a false prophet, like you suggest. God doesn't operate that way. Never has, and never will. Study your Bible and see for yourself.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

But as John317 clearly stated, some of us have a life away from the computer. If you go back several pages in this thread, you will find a labrynth of scriptures that do stick, and hold the Investigative Judgment doctrine as sound and in place, but you and miz3, and a host of you, choose to be in denial against these irrefutable truths.

Aaaaaaaaa Man!

I think it's funny how Rich will say that the SDA church is the Kingdom of Heaven, and then turn around and attack the foundation of adventism. And try to tear down the very doctrines that are her only reason for even existing. Ha!

If the SDA Church had a few more friends like him, they wouldn't need any enemies.

And to Rich:

God didn't raise this people up for a special purpose, by using a false prophet, like you suggest. God doesn't operate that way. Never has, and never will. Study your Bible and see for yourself.

Your way of thinking is that God didn't raise up (create) Adam so that he could ever be tempted to sin and then sin. How dumb is that? Tune up your mind a little and you will see that Satan does not care about the kingdoms of the world, but did care about the NEW Kingdom of Heaven set up in 1844 and went to work ASAP to cause them to take a detour by the way of EGW, just as Satan had to do with THE WAY and he did that with Paul. Put yourself in Satan's shoes and you would have done the same thing.

Those of us who have investigated the first of the Adventists know that they considered themselves the Ten Virgins or the Kingom of Heaven. Both EGW an her husband did too and can be proven by the book he wrote on the issue.

And Marcos, whom do you believe is/was the "little horn"?

[John317]

...

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a soul-testing truth, because it overwhelmingly emphasizes the importance of putting away sin out of our lives and that Jesus is soon to come as He is in his final stages of ministration.

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment DESTROYS the "Once Saved Always Saved" heresy.

The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment DESTROYS the "Calvinistic Predestination theology"

Adventists have the necessary tools to dismantle ALL other false beliefs.

In fact, it is the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment that provides Adventists the necessary tools to dismantle Dispensationalism.

Wonderful post, Lysimachus-- definitely deserves to be posted again.

You've also given some of the reasons that the Investigative Judgment is attacked. There are many who want to hold on to their sins and feel they can be saved in them. The IJ denies them this.

It also shows the error of the immortality of the soul and the view that the dead go immediately to their reward.

A beautiful thing about the IJ is that it shows us that we're living just before the Second Coming of Christ. Get ready!

The IJ shows us how God wants us to get ready to meet Christ when He comes.

[Samie]

Good. Back to topic again.

Let me just pose this question once more (see #517330 - Tue Jan 24 2012 04:22 PM), a question that was almost sent into oblivion:

Quote:

If all sins had been forgiven (Col 2:13) and taken away (John 1:29), and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins (Heb 10:16, 17), what then remains to be cleansed from the heavenly sanctuary?

I just hope this issue is addressed soon. But I will patiently wait.

[John317]

... whom do you believe is/was the "little horn"?

The little-horn power of Daniel 7 is pagan Rome*; in Daniel 8, the little-horn power is both pagan and papal Rome.

*[i misspoke: The little horn of Daniel 7 represents papal Rome.]

[Dr. Rich]

Good. Back to topic again.

Let me just pose this question once more (see #517330 - Tue Jan 24 2012 04:22 PM), a question that was almost sent into oblivion:

Quote:

If all sins had been forgiven (Col 2:13) and taken away (John 1:29), and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins (Heb 10:16, 17), what then remains to be cleansed from the heavenly sanctuary?

I just hope this issue is addressed soon. But I will patiently wait.

The question itself is a compound question with assumptions and presumptions that are either false or out of context making it imposssible to answer--and that is a fact!

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

... whom do you believe is/was the "little horn"?

The little-horn power of Daniel 7 is pagan Rome; in Daniel 8, the little-horn power is both pagan and papal Rome.

Then please explain Dan. 7:11-12?

[John317]

Quote:

If all sins had been forgiven (Col 2:13) and taken away (John 1:29), and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins (Heb 10:16, 17), what then remains to be cleansed from the heavenly sanctuary?

I just hope this issue is addressed soon. But I will patiently wait.

That question was answered some time ago.

Your question is based on an unbiblical assumption, "If..."

All sins have not already been forgiven and taken away, and there is definitely a record of sins.

Consider:

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 12:23

Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

NOTE: The above verses prove without a doubt that all sins were not forgiven at the cross. 1 John 1: 9 proves that the forgiveness of our sins is conditioned upon our repentence and sincere confession. Herod was killed by the angel of the Lord because of his sins, and this would make no sense if Herod's sins were already all forgiven. Peter puts the forgiveness of our sins in the future and conditioned upon repentence.

The following verses prove that there is some kind of record kept of our words and actions, whether they are good or bad.

Eccles. 12:13-14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matthew 12:36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

The Scriptures themselves say plainly that the heavenly sanctuary needs to be cleansed.

Hebrews 9:23

Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified [cleansed] with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.