The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[John317]

It seems that the central argument of tall73 is that the cleansing of the sanctuary is not the cleansing of confessed sins by the saints, but the cleansing of sins that are not confessed and polluted the sanctuary.

Yes, that's certainly a topic we need to cover and show the Bible evidence for.

Does the Bible give any evidence that the Investigative Judgment includes confessed sins?

Do confessed sins pollute the sanctuary?

Those are important questions.

[Samie]

Which of the following verses say man's sins are written in the "books" of heaven?

Rev. 20:12

Quote:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

So what was written in the books? Does this verse say sins were written there?

Daniel 7:10

Quote:

A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

Does this verse say sins were written in the "books" that were opened?

Eccles. 12:14

Quote:

For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Does this verse say sins were written in the "books" of heaven?

2 Cor. 5:10

Quote:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Does this verse say sins were written in the "books" of heaven?

Matthew 12:36-37

Quote:

"I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, [37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Does this verse say sins were written in the "books" of heaven?

Rev. 22:12

Quote:

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

Does this verse say sins were written in the "books" of heaven?

Honestly then, did any one of the verses you provided ever say sins were written in the "books" of heaven, as you seem to imply in your note?

NOTE: The biblical evidence is crystal clear that in the Judgment, people are judged according to what they have done and said, whether good or evil, according to the evidence written in "books," i.e., recorded in some way. The word of God says that this includes even "every secret thing, whether good or evil." People are indeed "judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."

I would certainly be humble enough to admit it if it wasn't there, but it is there.

You say it is there, but not a single one of the verses say what you had wanted them to say that sins are written in the "books" of heaven. It is even sad to note how you seem to have twisted the word of God by saying, "The word of God says this includes..." making 'this' refer to what you said were 'recorded in some way', and then adding a phrase from Ecclesiastes. That's dangerous. You can even make a dead fish swim on dry land by that method.

You PRESUMED sins are what are written in the "books"; but it could also be something else; could be the length of time in the lake of fire; no one could ever be sure. But just as surely we will be judged by what are written in the books, so surely are we promised God will remember our sins no more.

To not remember sins yet recording them is just not compatible. This is why NOT a single verse in the Bible says man's sins are written in the "books" of heaven.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

It seems that the central argument of tall73 is that the cleansing of the sanctuary is not the cleansing of confessed sins by the saints, but the cleansing of sins that are not confessed and polluted the sanctuary.

Yes, that's certainly a topic we need to cover and show the Bible evidence for.

Does the Bible give any evidence that the Investigative Judgment includes confessed sins?

Do confessed sins pollute the sanctuary?

Those are important questions.

You have to address first whether sins are written in the "books" of heaven. So far you have still failed to prove that from Scriptures.

[John317]

Concerning the reference of confessed sins, this article here deals with confessed sins transferred to the sanctuary:

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb3.php (scroll to, "The Sanctuary, Blood, and Defilement")

Good source.

In that source, Kevin Paulson wrote:

Quote:

Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people (Hebrews 2:17).

In other words, Jesus’ work of reconciliation (atonement) is part of His high priestly ministry, which the book of Hebrews repeatedly identifies with His intercession in heaven (Hebrews 4:1-16; 6:19, 20; 7:24-26; 9:11, 12). What the book of Hebrews is telling us is that Christ is now making reconciliation for our sins in heaven as our high priest. No hint can be found anywhere in Hebrews, or elsewhere, that this work of reconciliation was complete at the cross.

[Gail]

You have to address first whether sins are written in the "books" of heaven. So far you have still failed to prove that from Scriptures.

In the sanctuary the sins were recorded by the sprinkling of the blood drops upon the altar, veil, etc.

I have read where the inner veil was replaced once a year on the Day of Atonement. That was the solemn day when the record of all those sins, those blood drops, was finally disposed of forever. That was the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary.

[Lysimachus]

Samie,

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." (Ecc. 12:13,14)

John317 already brought up this verse to you, but you seemed to ignore it. This passage seems clear that evil works (aka, "sins") will be brought up in the judgment.

I find it awfully strange how you can think somehow these works will be brought up, yet are not recorded in the books. After all, aren't these the "judgment books"?

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/cleansing-of-the-sanctuary.htm

Kevin Paulson:

Quote:

Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people (Hebrews 2:17).

In other words, Jesus’ work of reconciliation (atonement) is part of His high priestly ministry, which the book of Hebrews repeatedly identifies with His intercession in heaven (Hebrews 4:1-16; 6:19, 20; 7:24-26; 9:11, 12). What the book of Hebrews is telling us is that Christ is now making reconciliation for our sins in heaven as our high priest. No hint can be found anywhere in Hebrews, or elsewhere, that this work of reconciliation was complete at the cross.

Very good John317. Thanks for sharing.

Could you link me the source to that? I'd love to read more on what he has to say on this.

[John317]

Which of the following verses say man's sins are written in the "books" of heaven?

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Originally Posted By: Samie

So what was written in the books? Does this verse say sins were written there?

Yes. It says plainly that they were judged by what was written in the books, and what was written in the books was "what they had done."

What have the people done? They've done both good and bad things, and bad things are called "sins."

It is obvious that in the court scene, evidence is being considered. What evidence? The evidence of their lives-- what they've done and said during their lifetime.

They are judged according to what they have done, and this information is found in the books that are being examined in the heavenly court.

Compare this verse with others in the Bible, including Ecc. 12: 13, 14--

... Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Clearly, what is being considered in the judgment are the good and evil deeds written in the books.

[John317]

...Could you link me the source to that? I'd love to read more on what he has to say on this.

I quoted it from the following link:

Concerning the reference of confessed sins, this article here deals with confessed sins transferred to the sanctuary:

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb3.php (scroll to, "The Sanctuary, Blood, and Defilement")

[John317]

It seems that the central argument of tall73 is that the cleansing of the sanctuary is not the cleansing of confessed sins by the saints, but the cleansing of sins that are not confessed and polluted the sanctuary.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Do you mean Samie?

Yes, that's certainly a topic we need to cover and show the Bible evidence for.

Does the Bible give any evidence that the Investigative Judgment includes confessed sins?

Do confessed sins pollute the sanctuary?

Those are important questions.

Originally Posted By: Samie

You have to address first whether sins are written in the "books" of heaven. So far you have still failed to prove that from Scriptures.

Here's the evidence, but you seem strangely resistent to it, even though the proof of it is staring you in the face.

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

It says plainly that they were judged by what was written in the books, and what was written in the books was "what they had done."

What have the people done? They've done both good and bad things, and bad things are called "sins."

It is obvious that in the court scene, evidence is being considered. What evidence? The evidence of their lives-- what they've done and said during their lifetime.

They are judged according to what they have done, and this information is found in the books that are being examined in the heavenly court.

Compare this verse with others in the Bible, including Ecc. 12: 13, 14--

... Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Clearly, what is being considered in the judgment are the good and evil deeds written in the books.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

...Could you link me the source to that? I'd love to read more on what he has to say on this.

I quoted it from the following link:

Concerning the reference of confessed sins, this article here deals with confessed sins transferred to the sanctuary:

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/gco/rar/pau-sdcb3.php (scroll to, "The Sanctuary, Blood, and Defilement")

That is hilarious, as I just finished reading that article a few days ago. It's amazing at how the mind can only remember so many things, and you can read it again and again and get new things out of it every time!

It's like when I read The Great Controversy again and again, I discover new things I never discovered before. :)

[John317]

Yes, that's so true.

That's the sign of a good book or good piece of writing: you keep learning something new each time you read it.

I suppose I noticed that particular paragraph because it was exactly what I had been writing about earlier.

[Guest]

I have given enough reasons why the only way to make the 2300 days workout is to understand them in a historicist light. Otherwise, I challenge you to find me the exact dates of where you believe this time-frame fits.

He can't do it.

[John317]

A stream of fire issued

and came out from before him;

a thousand thousands served him,

and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;

the court sat in judgment,

and the books were opened.

Originally Posted By: Samie

Does this verse say sins were written in the "books" that were opened?

It says that in the judgment, the court is considering what's written in the books.

Compare it with Ecc. 12: 13, 14:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Isn't it obvious that the court is considering "every work... with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil"?

Also compare it with Jesus' words:

Matthew 12:36

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak.

And:

Rev. 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

NOTE: Prior to Christ's return, every professed believer's life is examined in judgment.

[Guest]

I like the way you explain things John.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: tall73

Now it is interesting to me that Adventists cannot see the Day of Atonemnent in Hebrews which has:

a. discussion of the cleansing of the sanctuary FROM SINS of people, in the Day of Atonement

b. Entry into God's presence with blood

c. The high priest once per year entry

The idea that God's presence is not in the heavenly sanctuary - in the Holy Place - but only in the Most Holy Place -- is not supported in scripture.

In Dan 7 the Ancient of Days - moves TO the courtroom.

Turns out - God can move.

And that is what we see in the High Priestly ministry - dealing with both the daily sacrifices as we see in Heb 7 and with the yearly sacrifices.

In Heb 9 - the daily and the inauguration are clearly depicted. Your argument against that relies heavily on the notion that God is not actually in the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary.

But the Bible says that Christ IS God - and that he was at the right hand of the Father EVEN in the Holy Place.

And that they "can move".

in Christ,

Bob

Typical of the "human centric" view of God is make restricted to humanlike movements and thoughts.

[Samie]

Here's the evidence, but you seem strangely resistent to it, even though the proof of it is staring you in the face.

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

It says plainly that they were judged by what was written in the books, and what was written in the books was "what they had done."

What stares you in your face is that this verse says nothing about sins written in the books of heaven. You are merely reading into the Bible what is not there. The verse plainly states how men are judged:

1. judged out of those things which were written in the books, and

2. judged according to their works.

Not that what were written are "what they had done", because God Himself declared He will remember sins no more. Keeping record of sins is not compatible with not remembering them, and you know it. Please don't go against what God Himself declared by giving a meaning to another verse that would contradict what God Himself pronounced in another verse. Be a real exegete of God's word.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: tall73

The need for daily ministration of sacrifice and blood was the weakness of the earthly shadow. Jesus offered a single sacrifice then sat down. You don't need a daily prolonged ministration.

Then the priesthood of Christ has ceased? If there is no need for daily ministration there is no need for a priest,true? Yet, Christ is the High priest (forever).So now what does a high priest do? And why the further need for the heavenly sanctuary?

The High Priest becomes King!

Humans need no mediator between them and God because at the Cross Jesus Christ made it possible for us humans to go directly to the Father for all our inquiries. This is why the "Lord's Prayer" starts "our Father which art in Heaven".

On the Cross Christ mediated once and for all the breach that separated humanity from God.

Adventists have invented the "mediatorial work in the Sanctuary" as the "go between" between God and humanity while the RCC invented the "priest" as mediator.

The Bible and the Bible only supports neither view since Jesus Christ finished all His Work on the Cross (Death/Resurrection) as the Mediator between God and humanity.

Just like the RCC the SDA Church .org creates tooooooo many hurdles for humans to jump through in order:

1. Come to God.

2. Be saved.

The Bible says that Salvation is a "Free Gift" yet the more we know of the SDA Church .org on this we find that instead of a Gift we have huge Obligation to jump hurdle after hurdle and then and only then God will listen.

I see no basic difference in RCC theology of Salvation and the SDA Church .org version of Salvation. (based on RobRyan, John317, Lysimachus, etc. writings on this forum). Both are a "WORKS BASED SALVATION".

The human must "prove" themselves worthy to even get any sort of glance from God at all.

This accounts for all the misuse of the Bible and the Bible Scriptures.

1. the "fishing" for indirect meanings.

2. the ignoring of words in a text.

3. the adding of words to texts.

4. taking texts out of their context.

5. etc. etc. etc.

[John317]

Howdie, Mr. Murphy's Dad. :-)

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: tall73

If the text doesn't indicate it then Adventist literature doesn't mean much.

The whole context and thrust is of the cleansing from the defilement of the little horn. Because you already believe it has reference to the other you read it in too. But it does not say it in the text.

And that is the whole point of what you are doing here--to show it from the text.

But the point is, Daniel 7 is only presenting one angle. It's not focussing on the sins of the saints. It is focusing on the Little Horn. One must go elsewhere in Scripture to understand the salvific processes concerning the saints.

It is a terrible assumption that because the judgment of the saints is not found in Daniel 7 that this must mean it isn't so. Other scriptures are needed to put the WHOLE puzzle together, from start to finish.

Just more dancin'. The shell game.

[BobRyan]

In Dan 7 the Ancient of Days - moves TO the courtroom.

Turns out - God can move.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: John317

Here's the evidence, but you seem strangely resistent to it, even though the proof of it is staring you in the face.

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

It says plainly that they were judged by what was written in the books, and what was written in the books was "what they had done."

What stares you in your face is that this verse says nothing about sins written in the books of heaven. You are merely reading into the Bible what is not there. The verse plainly states how men are judged:

1. judged out of those things which were written in the books, and

2. judged according to their works.

Not that what were written are "what they had done", because God Himself declared He will remember sins no more. Keeping record of sins is not compatible with not remembering them, and you know it. Please don't go against what God Himself declared by giving a meaning to another verse that would contradict what God Himself pronounced in another verse. Be a real exegete of God's word.

Your problem Samie, is a failure to read between the lines. Your arguments are tantamount to saying, "the history books do not record that the army climbed up ladders, but it does say they scaled the city walls".

I'm not sure what prevents you from seeing the clear implications between the lines.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I see no reason to use all this "historicist" gibberish along with others gibberish theories. You are so wrapped up in "intellectual snobbery" language and theories that you forget the plain language of the Bible is all that is necessary.

You say in the beginning that you let the "words of the Bible speak to you" and then later you go on about how it is actually not the Words of the Bible but the Historicist View that blows everything out of the water.

Which is it?

Is it the simple Word of the Bible or is it the "intellectual gibberish" of the Historicist View that wins? Please make up your mind.

You are clearly a most confused person and it shows clearly in your writings.

Do not stretch my words out of proportion. The fact is, the simple words of the Bible describe a historicist truth. To believe that 70 weeks equates 490 years IS a Historicist principle. It's just a quick way of saying "Bible prophecy being recognized as a progression and continual unbroken chain throughout human history, from the dawn of man to the consummation of all things by which recognizes the day-for-year principle in it's timetables".

Would you rather have me give that long explanation every time?

Let's just stick to "Historicism".

I have given enough reasons why the only way to make the 2300 days workout is to understand them in a historicist light. Otherwise, I challenge you to find me the exact dates of where you believe this time-frame fits.

Instead of guessing maybe you could try saying "I just don't know".

Doing that would of course demonstrate that the IJ theory is not true and not Biblical.

God interprets His Own Word. Historicist theory is not a viable method of Biblical interpretation.

This is why you are so wrong in your Biblical interpretations.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Ok, here it comes, the RCC/Pope bashing.

You know what I think? I think we've done too much Satan bashing. We need to quit being so mean to Satan. Mhmm..yeah.

Therefore, we better quit bashing the Pope too, because Satan operates his kingdom and his throne through the Pope.

>.<

Satan also uses many other operations besides the Pope. Could it be that Satan would be so bold as to use the SDA Church .org as a tool to further his agenda?

Look to your own "house" first, then when you have that clean then maybe you could take the "sliver" out of the RCC.

[tall73]

John317,

It seems that the central argument of tall73 is that the cleansing of the sanctuary is not the cleansing of confessed sins by the saints, but the cleansing of sins that are not confessed and polluted the sanctuary. Is this what you are gathering?

If so, I think you and I need to start zeroing in on this particular point he's making more. What do you think?

hm, no.

The Day of Atonement cleansing is a cleansing from sins throughout the year by the saints. we disagree on the method of transmission, but again that is not a big issue to me.

The cleansing in Daniel 8 however is not talking about the sins of the saints. Rather it references the little horn activities and the need for restoration.

So to put it another way, we see two types of restorations of the sanctuary in the OT earthly sanctuary.

a. there was the doa cleansing which did deal with the sins of the camp.

b. there was pollution of the sanctuary which was high handed sin or pollution from without. These either required restoration from the defiling agent, such as in Hezekiah's clean up (along with reformation), or eventually God drives them from the land.

So the point is that just as the Glacier view report points out, the restoration in Daniel 8 is not the kind that would be characteristic of the DOA--the cleansing by blood the sins of the camp.

Rather it is pollution from an outside source that needs to be dealt with.