The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

The Investigative Judgment, it is claimed, is for cleansing of the sanctuary in heaven. I had already proven from Scriptures sins are not written in the "books" of heaven, so what remains to be cleansed in the sanctuary?

Interesting how you can boldly deceive yourself into thinking you have proved from the Scriptures that sins are not recorded in the "books" of heaven.

I have not seen this "proof" anywhere, and you have yet to show it.

John317 already showed you from Isaiah 65:7 that the iniquities of Israel are "written", "BEFORE HIM"

Did you just close your eyes to posts #522152 & #522153 and pretended they were not there? Did you now wish and vehemently wanted Jeremiah 17:1 torn out from Scriptures? Or you could again invent another meaning for it just like what you habitually do to verses proving you're wrong, in your vain attempt to rescue your hopeless case.

So who is deceiving his own self, brother?

[Lysimachus]

Does Isa 65:6 say it is in the "books" of heaven where sins are written and that God remembers them? Nothing of that sort. But you made an ASSUMPTION it is in the "books" of heaven and that God remembers them, contrary to what He said "their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb 10:17).

But the verse says it is "written before me" says the Lord. Yes, but where? In the "books" of heaven? NO. So where? In the heart of the sinner, says the Lord!

KJV Jeremiah 17:1

Quote:

The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars

That's why after a man dies, judgment is rendered (Heb 9:27), whether to blot his name from the book of life or not since his record is still intact in his 'heart' (from Hebrew 'leb' meaning inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding). All data we know are stored in man's physical hard disk, the brain, which could easily be scanned by heavenly intelligences and reported whether the person is an overcomer or not. If not, then the command to 'delete' his name from the book of life is executed.

Had the progenitors of the IJ doctrine been with computers as we are now, then they would have realized how a lifetime data can easily be scanned WiFi style by heavenly intelligences at a mouse-click instead of at a courtroom setting of a lengthy investigation claimed to have started in 1844 where a name is called one after the other starting from the dead.

You are adding "strenuous qualifications" for you to be convicted by the plain saying "It is written before me". And then you are forced to dance between the rain drops and play theological hop-scotch by somehow hoping to save your sorry case by detaching Jeremiah 17:1 from its context, and pretending that somehow the fact that the sins are written in their hearts belongs to Isaiah 65:7, and pretend that the written sins are not in books.

Nowhere in Isaiah 65:7 does it say it is "written in their hearts". The context of "written" always is alluding to "books", unless otherwise qualified, as in the case of Jeremiah 17:1. That's just the way it is.

Everytime we provide you plain texts that refute your case, you end up scrounging around and trying to pull all kinds of texts together, and then you hook one end of another text to the beginning of another text, and then pretend that somehow they belong to one another.

The fact that the sins of Israel was written in their hearts is not a mutually exclusive concept from those same sins being written before God in books. Everything that is done is recorded, whether good or evil.

What is "written" is connected with God's "books" in heaven:

Exodus

32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

The context is clear. There are "books" in heaven.

Revelation 20:12-13 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

One more time,

What parts of this don't you understand?

How long are you going to flail your arms around like a stubborn little child and pretend these verses do not say that things that are "done" are recorded? It does not say, "according to the GOOD things they had done as recorded in teh books", nor does it say "according to the BAD things they had done as recorded in teh books".

It says "the things they had DONE", PERIOD!

There's no IFs, no ANDs, or BUTs about it!

Also, please do not get "hung up" on the terminology "books" in comparison to Hard Disks.

Even Pastor Stephen Bohr has brought up these illustrations of computer hard disks and chip sets and disks DOZENS of times in his sermons -- but I doubt you ever take time to bother to pay attention to them, because you're so bend against them you don't want to have to take the time to study what we really believe on this matter.

"Books" and "scrolls" are simply metaphorical expressions to stress "concepts". The Bible was written during the time when there was no technology, only books and scrolls. Thus, the prophets wrote according to how they were able to visualize things.

Had God sent prophets during our time, you can be sure the prophets would use modern terminology.

Nonetheless, the PRINCIPLE is still there. The record of our sins IS IN HEAVEN--the things we have DONE.

They will be all WIPED off the records during the Investigative Judgment and placed on Satan, the Scape Goat at the Second Advent.

Step 1. Sins are blotted out from US, and forgiven, but maintained in heaven's record books for the judgment. (This is for God to prove Satan wrong, so that Satan doesn't try to accuse God of not letting him see the records of how they changed--also for the onlooking universe)

Step 2. The sins are blotted from heaven's computer systems during the Investigative Judgment.

Step 3. These sins, that Christ has already bore and paid the penalty for, are finally placed on Satan, the ultimate instigator of sin--Satan is the dump truck--the depository disposal system. Satan will now burn for all the sins of the righteous, and all those sins will burn with him.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Powerful powerful John317! I'd never heard that passage from Isaiah 65 before. Thanks for sharing.

It's interesting, too, that the Nelson Study Bible notes at Isaiah 65: 6 that "It is written refers to the heavenly book that records sin."

The Nelson Study Bible is not written or published by SDAs but by many conservative Christians from many different churches, including Baptist. Most of the contributers were educated at places like Dallas Theological Seminary and Western Conservative Baptist Seminary.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Does Isa 65:6 say it is in the "books" of heaven where sins are written and that God remembers them? Nothing of that sort. But you made an ASSUMPTION it is in the "books" of heaven and that God remembers them, contrary to what He said "their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb 10:17).

But the verse says it is "written before me" says the Lord. Yes, but where? In the "books" of heaven? NO. So where? In the heart of the sinner, says the Lord!

KJV Jeremiah 17:1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars.

That's why after a man dies, judgment is rendered (Heb 9:27), whether to blot his name from the book of life or not since his record is still intact in his 'heart' (from Hebrew 'leb' meaning inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding). All data we know are stored in man's physical hard disk, the brain, which could easily be scanned by heavenly intelligences and reported whether the person is an overcomer or not. If not, then the command to 'delete' his name from the book of life is executed.

Had the progenitors of the IJ doctrine been with computers as we are now, then they would have realized how a lifetime data can easily be scanned WiFi style by heavenly intelligences at a mouse-click instead of at a courtroom setting of a lengthy investigation claimed to have started in 1844 where a name is called one after the other starting from the dead.

You are adding "strenuous qualifications" for you to be convicted by the plain saying "It is written before me". And then you are forced to dance between the rain drops and play theological hop-scotch by somehow hoping to save your sorry case by detaching Jeremiah 17:1 from its context, and pretending that somehow the fact that the sins are written in their hearts belongs to Isaiah 65:7, and pretend that the written sins are not in books.

[Guest]

God's words tell us sins are written in the heart of the sinner, not in the "books" in heaven.

Where does it say in the Bible, that your sins are written in your heart?

Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

God's words tell us sins are written in the heart of the sinner, not in the "books" in heaven.

Where does it say in the Bible, that your sins are written in your heart?

[Lysimachus]

Yup, it's just too plain. No getting around it.

Present this to ANY non-Adventist who is NOT pre-disposed against Adventism, and they will agree. When you read them those passages, the Spirit plainly tells them, "our evil deeds are definitely recorded in heaven's books".

This has been a common theme throughout scripture concerning the record of our lives and the books of heaven.

Besides, Ellen White confirms that this is so, so it is so!

Maybe I should repeat Revelation 20:12,13 again?

Is it worth it?

I doubt it.

[Lysimachus]

God's words tell us sins are written in the heart of the sinner, not in the "books" in heaven.

[Samie]

Yup, it's just too plain. No getting around it.

Present this to ANY non-Adventist who is NOT pre-disposed against Adventism, and they will agree. When you read them those passages, the Spirit plainly tells them, "our evil deeds are definitely recorded in heaven's books".

This has been a common theme throughout scripture concerning the record of our lives and the books of heaven.

Yeah, that's what many are told since time immemorial, that sins are recorded in heaven. But God says otherwise: sins are written in the heart of the sinner. God said it; I believe it, although the world may not agree.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Yup, it's just too plain. No getting around it.

Present this to ANY non-Adventist who is NOT pre-disposed against Adventism, and they will agree. When you read them those passages, the Spirit plainly tells them, "our evil deeds are definitely recorded in heaven's books".

This has been a common theme throughout scripture concerning the record of our lives and the books of heaven.

Yeah, that's what many are told since time immemorial, that sins are recorded in heaven. But God says otherwise: sins are written in the heart of the sinner. God said it; I believe it, although the world may not agree.

So because sin is written in their heart, that negates that it is written in a book?

That's like saying that the law mentioned in Proverbs written on the tables of their heart was not written in stone on paper, because it was on their hearts.

Your logic fails on every account.

[Guest]

Don't you think so?

But the Bible plainly talks about books being kept in heaven. And in much more than just one little verse.

You said that the Bible teaches that our sins are written on our hearts, and NOT in the books of heaven. Clearly that statement is wrong.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Yup, it's just too plain. No getting around it.

Present this to ANY non-Adventist who is NOT pre-disposed against Adventism, and they will agree. When you read them those passages, the Spirit plainly tells them, "our evil deeds are definitely recorded in heaven's books".

This has been a common theme throughout scripture concerning the record of our lives and the books of heaven.

Yeah, that's what many are told since time immemorial, that sins are recorded in heaven. But God says otherwise: sins are written in the heart of the sinner. God said it; I believe it, although the world may not agree.

[Dr. Rich]

Samie and Marcos, whom do you say IS the Kingdom of Heaven right now? Do you agree with James and Ellen White that the Adventists are the Kingdom of Heaven right now (the 10 Virgins in Matt. 25:1-13)?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Don't you think so?

But the Bible plainly talks about books being kept in heaven. And in much more than just one little verse.

[miz3]

One of the purposes of the Investigative Judgment is to distinguish between those who are Christ's true followers and those who merely made a claim to be His followers but who "made the choice to sin and keep on sinning."

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

....All sins have not already been forgiven and taken away...

Consider:

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

NOTE: The above verse proves without a doubt that all sins were not forgiven at the cross. 1 John 1: 9 proves that the forgiveness of our sins is conditioned upon our repentence and sincere confession.

Originally Posted By: miz3

1John 1:9 is not a text that shows that only "some" sins were forgiven at the cross. What a waste of the Cross if God/Jesus Christ went through all of that just to forgive "only some sins".

What 1 John 1: 9 shows is that forgiveness of our sins is conditioned upon our repentence and confession. Christ shed His blood at the cross for our forgiveness, and He paid the penalty for all sins that anyone would ever commit, but people are not forgiven of their sins until they repent of them and confess them.

Where does the Bible teach that forgiveness is unconditional and occurs even when people don't repent and confess their sins?

Nowhere does the book of Acts say the disciples or apostles preached that all sins have already been forgiven.

That is not what Romans chapter five says.

You are confused. You are mixing the processes of Justification with the process of Sanctification.

1John 1:9 is for those who have already been Justified and are in the process of being Sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

This is an elementary point I am surprised that you, like Nicodemus, a scholar of the SDA Church .org don't know this.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

It seems that the central argument of tall73 is that the cleansing of the sanctuary is not the cleansing of confessed sins by the saints, but the cleansing of sins that are not confessed and polluted the sanctuary.

Yes, that's certainly a topic we need to cover and show the Bible evidence for.

Does the Bible give any evidence that the Investigative Judgment includes confessed sins?

Do confessed sins pollute the sanctuary?

Those are important questions.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Which of the following verses say man's sins are written in the "books" of heaven?

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Originally Posted By: Samie

So what was written in the books? Does this verse say sins were written there?

Yes. It says plainly that they were judged by what was written in the books, and what was written in the books was "what they had done."

What have the people done? They've done both good and bad things, and bad things are called "sins."

It is obvious that in the court scene, evidence is being considered. What evidence? The evidence of their lives-- what they've done and said during their lifetime.

They are judged according to what they have done, and this information is found in the books that are being examined in the heavenly court.

Compare this verse with others in the Bible, including Ecc. 12: 13, 14--

... Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Clearly, what is being considered in the judgment are the good and evil deeds written in the books.

John 317 the Judgment spoken of in Revelation chapter twenty takes place "AFTER THE SECOND COMING".

Thus, you cannot use this text for your IJ stuff.

It appears that you are taking anything the Bible says about "judgment" and applying it to the IJ. This is not proper and honest Bible study. Surely you are aware that using such "sloppy" methods can only lead to your credibility being zero.

I invite you to change your methods of Bible study so that we both may know the Truth and not this confusion you present.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Not that what were written are "what they had done", because God Himself declared He will remember sins no more. Keeping record of sins is not compatible with not remembering them, and you know it. Please don't go against what God Himself declared by giving a meaning to another verse that would contradict what God Himself pronounced in another verse. Be a real exegete of God's word.

A point we need to keep in mind is that the Bible doesn't tell us WHEN God will not remember sins any more.

It seems to me that you're making assumptions that the Bible gives you no grounds for making.

The Bible plainly gives you evidence that sins are recorded, but if you refuse to acknowledge it, that's up to you.

How can God and Jesus possiby judge anyone if they don't remember what people have done and said?

Jesus Himself said:

"I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, [37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." {Matt 12: 36-37}

NOTE: Don't those verses show us that Jesus will know what sinful things people have spoken?

Jesus' words imply that there's a record of every careless word people speak.

The following verses in the book of Isaiah show that the sins of people are written before Him and that He remembers them:

Quote:

Isaiah 65:3-7-- A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;

65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These [are] a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

65:6 Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

John317 these texts are talking about God "remembering" and "writing" and "record keeping" the SINS OF THE WICKED.

NOT THE SINS OF THE RIGHTEOUS.

Where does the Bible say the "sins of the righteous" are remembered?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Powerful powerful John317! I'd never heard that passage from Isaiah 65 before. Thanks for sharing.

It's interesting, too, that the Nelson Study Bible notes at Isaiah 65: 6 that "It is written refers to the heavenly book that records sin."

At Rev. 20: 12, the same study Bible says, "Books refers to the record of all works done in this life."

The Nelson Study Bible is not written or published by SDAs but is the work of many conservative Christians from different churches, including Baptist. Most of the contributers were educated at such places as Dallas Theological Seminary and Western Conservative Baptist Seminary.

It's one of the best study Bibles I know of.

Concerning Rev. 20: 12, another excellent study Bible, the ESV Study Bible, says, "Books recording their deeds will be opened (Daniel 7: 10), providing the grounds on which each is judged (Romans 2: 6-7). God keeps an accurate record of every human deed, and will reward and punish with perfect justice."

The General Editor of the ESV Study Bible is Wayne Grudem, a highly respected non-SDA theologian and the author of Systematic Theology.

This evidence shows that many Bible-believing Christians outside of the SDA Church understand the Bible to teach that sins are recorded in books in heaven.

So a "human interpreter" (the Nelson Bible) is now the top authority and all must submit to its interpretation.

This is your big problem, you rely on "human authorities" for you interpretation of Scripture.

Could you rly on God/Holy Spirit for your interpretations of Scripture?

It seems almost impossible for "human centric" interpreters of the Bible to rely on anything but other "human interpreters".

This is very weak ground you stand on.

[Lysimachus]

It was God Himself Who said sins are written in the heart of the sinner:

KJV Jeremiah 17:1

Quote:

The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars

Are you saying God made a wrong statement? In which case I'd rather be 'wrong' with God than be 'correct' with you.

[miz3]

Lysimachus, I am not impressed by those who make the Bible say what it does not say. This is what your methods do all the time. Your methodology is wrong because it relies too much on human thinking and is "human centric" instead of relying on God/Holy Spirit thinking (the Bible) and being "God Centric".

I invite you be become "God Centric" and stop "reading between the lines" as if God left something out and you, Lysimachus, have to "correct God's writing". And/or using "outside sources" to interpret what the Bible says as if these "human authorities" are themselves God.

You must believe that without your "between the lines" work God would surely be unable to express Himself. Is God that "stupid" in your mind? This is a very arrogant stand on your part.

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus, I am not impressed by those who make the Bible say what it does not say. This is what your methods do all the time. Your methodology is wrong because it relies too much on human thinking and is "human centric" instead of relying on God/Holy Spirit thinking (the Bible) and being "God Centric".

I invite you be become "God Centric" and stop "reading between the lines" as if God left something out and you, Lysimachus, have to "correct God's writing". And/or using "outside sources" to interpret what the Bible says as if these "human authorities" are themselves God.

You must believe that without your "between the lines" work God would surely be unable to express Himself. Is God that "stupid" in your mind? This is a very arrogant stand on your part.

And your method does not allow the Holy Spirit to teach you anything. Reading between the lines is not a matter of "adding" to scripture, but recognizing what must be plainly there. When you say, "I wrote down my thoughts", but left out the fact that there was paper involved, does this mean that because I did not mention paper there must have been no paper?

Sins are recorded in heaven's books. I cannot help if you cannot see what is plainly written.

Concerning your objection that righteous sins are not recorded:

Ecclesiastes:

12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

How can God show "every" evil thing ever done if it is not recorded for the onlookers to see?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Lysimachus, I am not impressed by those who make the Bible say what it does not say. This is what your methods do all the time. Your methodology is wrong because it relies too much on human thinking and is "human centric" instead of relying on God/Holy Spirit thinking (the Bible) and being "God Centric".

I invite you be become "God Centric" and stop "reading between the lines" as if God left something out and you, Lysimachus, have to "correct God's writing". And/or using "outside sources" to interpret what the Bible says as if these "human authorities" are themselves God.

You must believe that without your "between the lines" work God would surely be unable to express Himself. Is God that "stupid" in your mind? This is a very arrogant stand on your part.

And your method does not allow the Holy Spirit to teach you anything. Reading between the lines is not a matter of "adding" to scripture, but recognizing what must be plainly there. When you say, "I wrote down my thoughts", but left out the fact that there was paper involved, does this mean that because I did not mention paper there must have been no paper?

Sins are recorded in heaven's books. I cannot help if you cannot see what is plainly written.

Concerning your objection that righteous sins are not recorded:

Ecclesiastes:

12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

How can God show "every" evil thing ever done if it is not recorded for the onlookers to see?

You thoughts are still extremely weak and I remain unconvinced. In fact your methodology is extremely scary since anyone can claim almost anything when "reading between the lines".

The problem is you are adding things that are not there.

Your methods are very dangerous.

[Samie]

...

Notice the expression:

Originally Posted By: Isaiah 65:6

"Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom.".

Now notice the following:

Originally Posted By: Malachi 3:16

"Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name."

Concerning a "book", God says for the righteous it is "written before him".

Then Isaiah 65:6 says, "it is written BEFORE me". SAME expression!

Therefore, the implication is that there is a book BEFORE HIM also for the sins of the wicked.

WITHOUT QUESTION!!