The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[John317]

a. The question [of Daniel 8: 13] was, until when, ie when would the activities of the horn cease.

The question is actually, "How long will the vision be?"

Literally, the verse reads: "How long is the vision of the daily as taken away and the transgression which horrifies, the giving of both the holy [place] and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

It could also be translated: "How long will the vision about the daily apply, and the transgression that horrifies, so as to allow both the holy [place] and the host to be trampled underfoot?" (See NASB.)

Verse 14 gives the answer: "For two thousand three hundred evening-mornings, then the sanctuary shall be cleansed [restored to its rightful state]."

So the question is, how long will the vision be concerning the holy [place].

The Jewish Publication Society's translation of Daniel 8: 13 reads, "How long will the vision last?"

Also compare Rotherham's Emphasized Bible: "How long is the vision...?"

That's different from asking when the activities of the little-horn power will stop.

[Samie]

And there is definitely a record of sins...

[Samie]

Very Important Reminder:

The only reference Jesus ever made to the book of Daniel is when He told His disciples the succession of events culminating in His Second Coming. The setting up of the abomination of desolation (AoD) will trigger the great tribulation, the period of occurrence of which God will shorten. At the close of the great tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by the 2nd Coming of the Lord (see Matt 24:15-31; Mark 13:14-27). Of that great tribulation or time of trouble, the angel told Daniel:

Daniel 12:1-2

Quote:

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Clearly, the great tribulation or time of trouble will occur shortly before the 2nd Coming, and Christ has said the great tribulation will occur when the AoD is set up!

All prophecies therefore in Daniel that have something to do with the AoD will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming of the Lord. In this connection, it would appear that relegating an AoD-related prophecy to a fulfillment in the distant past is tantamount to a display of disbelief in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Lysimachus]

However, the removal of errors of the little horn is not the same as cultic cleansing of the saints of professed believers.

[Lysimachus]

Very Important Reminder:

The only reference Jesus ever made to the book of Daniel is when He told His disciples the succession of events culminating in His Second Coming. The setting up of the abomination of desolation (AoD) will trigger the great tribulation, the period of occurrence of which God will shorten. At the close of the great tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by the 2nd Coming of the Lord (see Matt 24:15-31; Mark 13:14-27). Of that great tribulation or time of trouble, the angel told Daniel:

Daniel 12:1-2

Quote:

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Clearly, the great tribulation or time of trouble will occur shortly before the 2nd Coming, and Christ has said the great tribulation will occur when the AoD is set up!

All prophecies therefore in Daniel that have something to do with the AoD will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming of the Lord. In this connection, it would appear that relegating an AoD-related prophecy to a fulfillment in the distant past is tantamount to a display of disbelief in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Samie, your main problem is that you are not realizing that there are MORE than ONE "Abomination of Desolations".

There are a total of about 4 of them throughout human history, and there is one more AoD coming up--and that's future. Obviously, your mind has not been geared enough in the ways of Adventist thinking. Go look up the studies on the Abomination of Desolation online before you come to conclusions.

What happened with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Abomination of Desolation mentioned by Jesus was a "foretaste" of the very end of the world. It will be repeated again, apocalyptically. Deep exegetical studies have been conducted to prove this.

So no, we have not "relegated" the final Abomination of Desolation to the distant past.

Here are a couple great articles on the Abomination of Desolation. Become FAMILIAR with the arguments before you start posting again:

http://www.abomination-of-desolation.com/ - Page 1

http://www.abomination-of-desolation.com/abominationofdesolation.html - Page 2

http://www.amazingfacts.org/free-stuff/o...ation/sc/r.aspx

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: John317

And there is definitely a record of sins...

If a record of sins is maintained, then how would you harmonize that with what God Himself pronounced:

Hebrews 10:16-17

Quote:

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

In effect, you are saying God keeps a record of sins He forgets? Does that make sense? Have you ever told a friend "Here is the list of things I had forgotten"? So how were you able to make the list if you had really forgotten the things you yourself listed?

Hebrews 10 does not say "when" those sins are remembered no more. The very fact that you can go back to your sins proves that they are on record.

Remember, in Isaiah 44:22, God tells Israel that he has "blotted out" their sins. Yet we're told that sins were not blotted out until the cross. Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and though it was in effect for Adam and Eve, the physical transaction did not occur until the cross.

Likewise, though our sins are remembered no more, the physical transaction of blotting out those sins does not occur until the Investigative Judgment, although in a sense, for you personally, they were already blotted out. But you can go back to them and put them right back on those books.

It is sheer lunacy to think that "remembering them no more" means God will not literally remember them no more. Of course he can remember them! The point being made is, God will treat you as though you had not sinned. That is the main point. It is a metaphorical expression to illustrate a point. But you can always go back to those sins.

Unless you believe in the perfidious doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved?

No no no.

We don't teach that here!

[Samie]

Samie, your main problem is that you are not realizing that there are MORE than ONE "Abomination of Desolations".

[Lysimachus]

Samie, your main problem is that you are not realizing that there are MORE than ONE "Abomination of Desolations".

[Samie]

Hebrews 10 does not say "when" those sins are remembered no more.

[Samie]

Either way you look at it though, your case is not vindicated. A wall and the Temple are two different things. The actual temple structure was completely demolished. The wall is not the same as the Temple.

Well, if your Temple has no walls...

And you have not addressed your dilemma of Daniel referring to more than ONE abomination of desolation. You claimed there were FOUR. Please show from the Bible.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: tall73

a. The question [of Daniel 8: 13] was, until when, ie when would the activities of the horn cease.

The question is actually, "How long will the vision be?"

Literally, the verse reads: "How long is the vision of the daily as taken away and the transgression which horrifies, the giving of both the holy [place] and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

It could also be translated: "How long will the vision about the daily apply, and the transgression that horrifies, so as to allow both the holy [place] and the host to be trampled underfoot?" (See NASB.)

Verse 14 gives the answer: "For two thousand three hundred evening-mornings, then the sanctuary shall be cleansed [restored to its rightful state]."

So the question is, how long will the vision be concerning the holy [place].

The Jewish Publication Society's translation of Daniel 8: 13 reads, "How long will the vision last?"

Also compare Rotherham's Emphasized Bible: "How long is the vision...?"

That's different from asking when the activities of the little-horn power will stop.

I'm in total agreement John, and here's how the Jewish Bible puts it: Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one holy one speaking, and one holy one said to the anonymous one who was speaking, "How long will be the vision of the daily sacrifice and the mute abomination, permitting the Sanctuary and the host to be trampled?"

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Either way you look at it though, your case is not vindicated. A wall and the Temple are two different things. The actual temple structure was completely demolished. The wall is not the same as the Temple.

Well, if your Temple has no walls...

And you have not addressed your dilemma of Daniel referring to more than ONE abomination of desolation. You claimed there were FOUR. Please show from the Bible.

I gave you the links. If you refuse to read them, it's your loss. All the scriptures are cited there. You have an abomination of desolation mentioned in Jeremiah, another in Daniel 9:24-27, and again in Daniel 11:31 and again in 12:11.

In a nutshell, you have:

1. The abominations that caused the desolations of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. under Nebuchadnezzar by the Babylonians. See Jeremiah 44:22.

2. The abominations that caused the desolations of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. under Titus. (see Daniel 9:26,27)

3. The abominations of the Papacy that caused spiritual desolation to the Church. (see Daniel 11:31)

4. The final abomination of the Sunday law that will cause world-wide desolation upon the Papacy's resurgence from the Deadly Wound. (see Daniel 12:11; Revelation 17:4,5)

When Jesus was speaking of the abomination of desolation, he was not referring to Daniel 11 or 12 primarily. He was referring to Daniel 9:26 and 27. But this foreshadowed further events that would occur in the rise of the Papacy and in the final days.

It is absolutely impossible that Daniel 11 and 12 can be referring to the exact same events in Daniel 9:24-27, as the context is clearly involving a different scene, and is a progression in history way beyond 70 A.D. Also, the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel 9:26 and 27 is without question the time of 70 A.D., unless you wish to believe in the laughable and perfidious gap theory by decapitating the 70th week and throwing it into the future?

In that case, you will also be forced to saw off the Little Horn from the Beast and insert a 1500 year gap. A notion too ridiculous to be entertained. I'm sorry, but we don't stack Dispensational-Futurist garbage on top of the truth.

Whether you like it or not, Scriptures teach more than one Abomination of Desolation.

[Samie]

...

I gave you the links. If you refuse to read them, it's your loss. All the scriptures are cited there. You have an abomination of desolation mentioned in Jeremiah, another in Daniel 9:24-27, and again in Daniel 11:31 and again in 12:11.

In a nutshell, you have:

1. The abominations that caused the desolations of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. under Nebuchadnezzar by the Babylonians. See Jeremiah 44:22.

2. The abominations that caused the desolations of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. under Titus. (see Daniel 9:26,27)

3. The abominations of the Papacy that caused spiritual desolation to the Church. (see Daniel 11:31)

4. The final abomination of the Sunday law that will cause world-wide desolation upon the Papacy's resurgence from the Deadly Wound. (see Daniel 12:11; Revelation 17:4,5)

When Jesus was speaking of the abomination of desolation, he was not referring to Daniel 11 or 12 primarily. He was referring to Daniel 9:26 and 27. But this foreshadowed further events that would occur in the rise of the Papacy and in the final days.

It is absolutely impossible that Daniel 11 and 12 can be referring to the exact same events in Daniel 9:24-27, as the context is clearly involving a different scene, and is a progression in history way beyond 70 A.D. Also, the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel 9:26 and 27 is without question the time of 70 A.D., unless you wish to believe in the laughable and perfidious gap theory by decapitating the 70th week and throwing it into the future?

In that case, you will also be forced to saw off the Little Horn from the Beast and insert a 1500 year gap. A notion too ridiculous to be entertained. I'm sorry, but we don't stack Dispensational-Futurist garbage on top of the truth.

Whether you like it or not, Scriptures teach more than one Abomination of Desolation.

That's what you think. And don't include Jeremiah; Christ referred only to Daniel in the matter of the AoD. And you are not at liberty to interpret "abomination" (Hebrew "shiqquts") into whatever you like the word to refer to. Proper exegesis will tell you "shiqquts" can only refer to an image or idol (see 1 Kings 11:5, 7) in pagan worship . There is only one such image or idol that will cause desolation to the end time people of God - the image of the beast in Rev 13.

Not even one in the FOUR (4) AoD's you enumerated above had any image or idol in its supposed fulfillment. A clear case of eisegesis. Let Scriptures explain themselves, line upon line, precept upon precept (Isa 28:10).

[tall73]

Yes, here's what she wrote:

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. "Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel?" 1 Peter 4:17. {GC 480.1}

[size:11pt]QUESTION: Are not the Roman Catholic Church and the papacy-- the little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8-- among the "professed people of God"?

They consider themselves "the people of God". They call themselves such in their catechisms and in the Vatican II documents.

Of course, many Catholics will be saved, and therefore, many in the Roman Catholic Church are truly "the people of God." The IJ distinguishes the true from the false. That is one of its main purposes.

I do not consider that everyone who was part of the Catholic Church professed God, especially in the middle ages. Many were baptized as infants in "Christian" nations, and it was assumed they were Catholic.

But as I noted there is another issue. The same judgment strips authority of NATIONS who were certainly not all professed people of God.

[BobRyan]

1. Accusations are made against the saints by the little horn. That implies that the little horn has a "claim" that gives it the right to make such complaints. It is not at all clear that paganism has such a "claim" by its very nature.

[tall73]

The IJ distinguishes the true from the false. That is one of its main purposes.

You are reading into Daniel 7 what is simply not there. There is no investigation pictured on the group of saints to see who the real saints are.

And in your scenario the little horn group and the saints would overlap considerably, but we don't see this in the vision either.

Rather we see a very easy way to know the saints, and you don't even need an IJ for it. The saints in the passage are the ones being persecuted. The little horn power is the one doing the persecution.

Please try reading the passage for what it says.

The passage is not fixated on identifying and weeding out individual saints or failure saints. It is about the nations that dominate the earth and the world the saints live in. God is ultimately in control of them and asserts His authority.

And He delivers His saints from the oppressing power that is persecuting them.

This is all about God's sovereignty over the powers of this world, not about inspecting individual saints.

[BobRyan]

[

Both the Dan 7 and SDA view of pre-advent judgment has a completed point in time where the entire group has been judged and the entire group of the saints found to be vindicated. (And so "Judgment passed in favor of the saints").

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

[

Both the Dan 7 and SDA view of pre-advent judgment has a completed point in time where the entire group has been judged and the entire group of the saints found to be vindicated. (And so "Judgment passed in favor of the saints").

Originally Posted By: tall73

It says the saints are delivered and inherit the kingdom, it does not spell out individual judgment at this time in the text.

The text is not an exhaustive account of the judgment.

That is why we take Romans 2:4-16 as a much more detailed account - as is Matt 7.

In Dan 7 we find the broad 50,000 foot view landmarks.

In Matt 7, and in Romans 2:14-16 we get down to specifics.

You are trying to make each one into its own judgment - an idea that does not hold up well in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

Actually, I have already pointed out you can't escape different judgments because the judgment on believers is something we are PRESENT for and give an account at, and confess and bend the knee.

Moreover it is Ellen White's own criteria I am using--only on professed believers, only in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type. But that is not what we see in Daniel 7.

[BobRyan]

Now it is interesting to me that Adventists cannot see the Day of Atonemnent in Hebrews which has:

a. discussion of the cleansing of the sanctuary FROM SINS of people, in the Day of Atonement

b. Entry into God's presence with blood

c. The high priest once per year entry

The idea that God's presence is not in the heavenly sanctuary - in the Holy Place - but only in the Most Holy Place -- is not supported in scripture.

In Dan 7 the Ancient of Days - moves TO the courtroom.

Turns out - God can move.

And that is what we see in the High Priestly ministry - dealing with both the daily sacrifices as we see in Heb 7 and with the yearly sacrifices.

In Heb 9 - the daily and the inauguration are clearly depicted. Your argument against that relies heavily on the notion that God is not actually in the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary.

But the Bible says that Christ IS God - and that he was at the right hand of the Father EVEN in the Holy Place.

And that they "can move".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Both the Dan 7 and SDA view of pre-advent judgment has a completed point in time where the entire group has been judged and the entire group of the saints found to be vindicated. (And so "Judgment passed in favor of the saints").

[BobRyan]

Moreover it is Ellen White's own criteria I am using--only on professed believers, only in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type. But that is not what we see in Daniel 7.

In Dan 7 you have the court room - pre-advent judgment that completes the process of atonement described in Lev 16.

Atonement is not made "for the wicked" lost world or the devil - but they are judged.

"In context" Ellen White was talking about the atonement process only dealing with the cases of those who "had any claim" to the blood of Christ - whether that claim be legit -- or not. (Which is the work of the I.J. to determine.)

in Christ,

Bob

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

However, the removal of errors of the little horn is not the same as cultic cleansing of the saints of professed believers.

It may not be the same, but both occur at the same time nonetheless, and this is thoroughly addressed in Adventist literature--Stephen Bohr's materials deal with this subject, and a great deal of this information is dealt with in The Case for the Investigative Judgment by Marvin Moore.

If the text doesn't indicate it then Adventist literature doesn't mean much.

The whole context and thrust is of the cleansing from the defilement of the little horn. Because you already believe it has reference to the other you read it in too. But it does not say it in the text.

And that is the whole point of what you are doing here--to show it from the text.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Both the Dan 7 and SDA view of pre-advent judgment has a completed point in time where the entire group has been judged and the entire group of the saints found to be vindicated. (And so "Judgment passed in favor of the saints").

Originally Posted By: tall73

It says the saints are delivered and inherit the kingdom, it does not spell out individual judgment at this time in the text.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The text is not an exhaustive account of the judgment.

That is why we take Romans 2:4-16 as a much more detailed account - as is Matt 7.

In Dan 7 we find the broad 50,000 foot view landmarks.

In Matt 7, and in Romans 2:14-16 we get down to specifics.

You are trying to make each one into its own judgment - an idea that does not hold up well in scripture.

Originally Posted By: tall73

Actually, I have already pointed out you can't escape different judgments because the judgment on believers is something we are PRESENT for

Paul says "We must all stand before the Judgment seat of Christ" speaking of that future preadvent IJ where the saints on earth are not physically present.

Paul also says "We are seated WITH Christ in the heavenly" in Eph 2:6 -- even though we are not physically in heaven with Christ.

Paul says "I am WITH you in spirit thought absent in the body" in 1Cor 5.

You are placing a lot of emphasis on the saints being physically present based on the writing of Paul that clearly refute taking a wooden construct to those statements.

in Christ,

Bob

It doesn't just say standing. Some of the text speak of bending the knee, giving account etc.

These are all things that happen when you are present.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

Rom 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

You are placing a lot of emphasis on trying to read out what those texts say because you have to support a doctrine not being spoken of in them.

We don't confess, we don't give an account, we are not present and we don't bend the knee in the IJ.

Now, let's look at a place where folks do wind up before the throne:

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

Or

Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

Moreover it is Ellen White's own criteria I am using--only on professed believers, only in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type. But that is not what we see in Daniel 7.

In Dan 7 you have the court room - pre-advent judgment that completes the process of atonement described in Lev 16.

Atonement is not made "for the wicked" lost world or the devil - but they are judged.

"In context" Ellen White was talking about the atonement process only dealing with the cases of those who "had any claim" to the blood of Christ - whether that claim be legit -- or not. (Which is the work of the I.J. to determine.)

in Christ,

Bob

the judgment on the wicked is a DISTINCT work she said. So how can those other powers be judged if that is the case? And how can the nations, etc. be judged which they are in that passage?

And why is there no picture of individuals being judged? And why is there no commentary on some who are of the little horn also being professed believers? And why are the saints known not by investigation in the chapter, but by plight--the ones who are persecuted.

It just doesn't fit the context. But Adventists need it to because they just don't have texts that describe what they are looking for.

[tall73]

The idea that God's presence is not in the heavenly sanctuary - in the Holy Place - but only in the Most Holy Place -- is not supported in scripture.

In Dan 7 the Ancient of Days - moves TO the courtroom.

Turns out - God can move.

A. No one ever said God's presence was not throughout. However, it is supported in Scripture where in the type His immediate presence dwelt:

God would meet with them from above the mercy seat between the Cherubim.

Ex 25:21 And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you.

22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

Ex 30:6 And you shall put it in front of the veil that is above the ark of the testimony, in front of the mercy seat that is above the testimony, where I will meet with you.

Lev 16:2 And the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat that is on the ark, so that he may not die. For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.

Num 7:89 And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the LORD, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him.

1Sa 4:4 So the people sent to Shiloh and brought from there the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, who is enthroned on the cherubim. And the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God.

2Sa 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale-judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the LORD of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim.

B. Moreover, the yearly entry by blood of the High Priest into God's presence in the context of cleansing the sanctuary from sins--that includes the MHP. And the inauguration--that included the MHP. And the notion that earlier in the chapter His once for all entry was compared to the entry with blood, including goats. Entry with blood of goats only happened on two occassions, the inauguration and the Day of Atonement, BOTH of which go to the MHP.