The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[John317]

Doesn't God search and test the hearts and minds of people for the purpose of giving every man according to his conduct and his deeds?

Originally Posted By: miz3

As I told you before, God is not setting a singular time aside to do this.

God is constantly, continuously, doing this (searching and testing). Thus, for God He knows everything that is there all the time and knows the reward for such things all the time.

You are trying to make this a singular event of "investigation" and that is NOT what God is doing in this text, Jeremiah 17:10.

No, I'm not doing this. I've said several times before that God doesn't wait until the Investigative Judgment to test or search or investigate human hearts and minds. The Bible shows that God did this with Adam and Eve, Noah, Job, Abraham, and Moses, etc.

But as we said before also, we haven't yet got into the part of the Bible study where we're looking at the timing of the Investigative Judgment.

Originally Posted By: miz3

God does not "investigate". They are not synonyms.

What is the essential difference between God's searching and testing people's hearts and minds, and God's investigating people's hearts and minds?

Does God's testing/investigating have anything to do with these verses--

1 Cor. 4:4-5:

I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges [tests, inquires, examines, investigates] me. [5] Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

1 Thes. 2:4:

but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.

Eccles. 12:13-14: [13] The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Matthew 12:36

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

[miz3]

What is the essential difference between God's searching and testing people's hearts and minds, and God's investigating people's hearts and minds?

Does God's testing/investigating have anything to do with these verses--

1 Cor. 4:4-5:

I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges [tests, inquires, examines, investigates] me. [5] Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

1 Thes. 2:4:

but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.

Eccles. 12:13-14: [13] The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Matthew 12:36

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

* * *

1. 1Corinthians 4:4-5.

a. Why do you have to use parentheses in order to insert [the] word "investigate". The word "investigate" is not in that text. Accept the FACT. Accept the FACT also that when God "judges" God is not "investigating" anything. God does not need to "investigate" because God already knows.

What is it about this that is so hard ... to understand apart from ... doing everything under the sun in order to get [the] word "investigate" inserted into the record.

The word "investigate" is not in this text and not in the Bible either. Get it.

Notice also that Judgment is pronounced when the Lord comes NOT BEFORE THE LORD COMES.

This text puts to rest that there is a "Judgment" before the Second Coming. Surely you can see this simple FACT worded in plain language in the TEXT.

To answer your question in short:

There is no "investigating" in 1Corinthians 4:4-5.

2. 1Thessalonians 2:4.

Again, the word "tests" is not the same (not a synonym) of the word "investigate" in this text.

3. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.

This text just says God will bring everything into Judgment. When is this Judgment, AFTER THE SECOND COMING.

Nothing here to support your erroneous views.

4. Matthew 12:36.

This is obviously a Judgment that concerns only the wicked. It cannot be the Righteous because God/Jesus Christ already has Forgiven those sins and He remembers them no more.

When does the Judgment for the wicked take place? AFTER THE SECOND COMING (and the thousand years).

John317 there is nothing here for you either. You drew a blank on every single text from the Bible.

Are we done [with the] "word searches" now, or must we all endure more ... in an attempt to get the word "investigate" into the Bible?

...

[Tom Wetmore]

MODERATOR NOTE:

This topic was getting a bit overheated and some folk need time to cool off. There has been too much sniping and ad hominem commentary.

Continue but stick to the topic and refrain from making this a personal snipe-fest.

[Samie]

Good. Back to topic.

Let me just pose this question (see #517330 - Tue Jan 24 2012 04:22 PM) that was almost sent into oblivion:

Quote:

If all sins had been forgiven (Col 2:13) and taken away (John 1:29), and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins (Heb 10:16, 17), what then remains to be cleansed from the heavenly sanctuary?

[skyblue888]

The answer is in the type. In the typical sanctuary service the sinner confessed his sin by laying his hands upon the head of the victim and the priest took some blood from the slain lamb which was transfered to the sanctuary. That was highly symbolic. These sins were forgiven there and then but they were not canceled. They were not canceled until the typical great day of Atonement when the priest made the final atonement. Thus the sanctuary was cleansed.

When we confess our sins pleading the merits of the blood shed for us, they are sent beforehand to judgment, they are transfered to the sanctuary above. They are forgiven but not canceled. They will be canceled when Jesus shall make the final atonement provided they were overcome. Thus the sanctuary shall be cleansed.

sky

[miz3]

Good. Back to topic.

Let me just pose this question (see #517330 - Tue Jan 24 2012 04:22 PM) that was almost sent into oblivion:

Quote:

If all sins had been forgiven (Col 2:13) and taken away (John 1:29), and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins (Heb 10:16, 17), what then remains to be cleansed from the heavenly sanctuary?

Great question.

[Dr. Rich]

Good. Back to topic.

Let me just pose this question (see #517330 - Tue Jan 24 2012 04:22 PM) that was almost sent into oblivion:

Quote:

If all sins had been forgiven (Col 2:13) and taken away (John 1:29), and no record of sin maintained since God refuses to remember all sins (Heb 10:16, 17), what then remains to be cleansed from the heavenly sanctuary?

John 1:29 does not say that Jesus has ready taken away the sins of the world--see the word "takes", that means it will happen in the future. That future date is the time found in Rev. 11:15-19--which is still in the future.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

.... an imaginary 'investigative judgment' that started at the time EGW said she had the vision from her god-Oct. 22, 1844.

It's simple things like this that make Adventists look like fools, but then the 'foolish virgins' will probably look like fools.

But the whole issue is on attempting to prove the IJ has absolutly nothing to do with one's salvation. The way I see it, it's just an attempt to make the words EGW wrote explain away the mistaken event they now call the great dissappointment.

Strange that someone who claims to believe the SDA Church is the Kingdom of Heaven could make the above statements.

The SDA Church wouldn't even exist without EG White and it certainly wouldn't have existed without the Great Disappointment and the teaching of the Investigative Judgment. It's perfectly obvious to me (and should be to other members of the church) that God was directing events in the founding of our Church and in the way it's gone since that time.

If they don't believe this-- and if they believe as you do, that the SDA church was led by a false prophet and came out of a false movement and false teachings by Miller-- then I don't understand why they would want to attend, or be members of, the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Pure speculation on your part my friend. All one has to do is look what Jesus said (prophsied) and you will see that Matthew 24 and 25 (they go together) 1-13 and Rev. 2 and 3 had to happen (God's words are true) so don't blame me-because I didn't write it. Yes, God knew what was going to happen so He gave this information to those who are the bondservants (Rev. 1:1) for them to know and understand the whole situtation for assurance that things will happen just as God said. As per above, we do know that there will come a time when the KOH will have to make a choice (5 wise and 5 foolish). As for me, I choose to follow exactly what God said--and therefore can not be deceived by the words of those who never knew Jesus.

[Samie]

The answer is in the type. In the typical sanctuary service the sinner confessed his sin by laying his hands upon the head of the victim and the priest took some blood from the slain lamb which was transfered to the sanctuary. That was highly symbolic. These sins were forgiven there and then but they were not canceled. They were not canceled until the typical great day of Atonement when the priest made the final atonement. Thus the sanctuary was cleansed.

When we confess our sins pleading the merits of the blood shed for us, they are sent beforehand to judgment, they are transfered to the sanctuary above. They are forgiven but not canceled. They will be canceled when Jesus shall make the final atonement provided they were overcome. Thus the sanctuary shall be cleansed.

[Dr. Rich]

As to number 5 Sammy, who said that the cross had anything to do with the Atonement? Clearly He died the day before Passover meaning that He took the place of the Passover lamb. The passover had nothing to do with Atonment as that happened in the fall.

The Passover had nothing to do with the cleansing (forgiving) of anyone's sin. The passover made it possible for ONLY the first born male to keep from being killed by the hand of God.

Think about it for a while---The first born male was Adam in a sense, so Jesus' death made it possible for Adam to keep on living, just as Isaac got to keep on living.

[Samie]

As to number 5 Sammy, who said that the cross had anything to do with the Atonement? Clearly He died the day before Passover meaning that He took the place of the Passover lamb. The passover had nothing to do with Atonment as that happened in the fall.

The Passover had nothing to do with the cleansing (forgiving) of anyone's sin. The passover made it possible for ONLY the first born male to keep from being killed by the hand of God.

Think about it for a while---The first born mail was Adam in a sense, so Jesus' death made it possible for Adam to keep on living, just as Isaak got to keep on living.

I am sorry, Dr. Rich. I cannot perhaps discuss with you these things because we do not have the same basis upon which to build our case. I believe in the whole Bible; you don't. I hope you understand.

[Dr. Rich]

Are you saying what I wrote is wrong? Prove it! Please!

[Woody]

Are you saying what I wrote is wrong? Prove it! Please!

That is really a funny statement Dr. Rich. As I am sure you are aware - you have made up your mind. No "proof" would suffice. And then we have the issue of what is proof for one is not proof for another. And since as he stated - you don't accept all of scripture - it is almost impossible to hold a conversation with you.

[Dr. Rich]

Are you saying that the bible contains contradictory verses? ... Cut and paste theology for building a foundation is not what Jesus told us to do as found in Matthew 7:24-27.

Are not we suppose to be truth seekers? If so, set me straight IF you think I am not following the truth!

[Woody]

I am not about to set you straight. I could care less what you believe. You can believe whatever you want. I won't be trying to change you mind.

As for me personally - I accept the scriptures as a whole and not just isolated out of context quotes. But then one has to study ALL of scriputes to get that picture.

[Lysimachus]

I am not about to set you straight. I could care less what you believe. You can believe whatever you want. I won't be trying to change you mind.

As for me personally - I accept the scriptures as a whole and not just isolated out of context quotes. But then one has to study ALL of scriputes to get that picture.

Amen Woody

We believe in the WHOLE Bible.

If it were true that Paul was a deceiver, I would instantly lose my faith in a God that is incapable of preserving His own Bible.

What a PATHETIC God who was INCAPABLE of preserving His OWN Bible!! God is allowing BILLIONS of people to be deceived, because His book is FULL of heretical books!

Does that make any sense?

[Woody]

As usual Marcos - you make total sense. Very Good.

[Dr. Rich]

Huh? Are you saying that when God allowed the tares to be planted along with the wheat (Paul's words in the NT) and allowed the serpant to be in the Garden, that God was at fault?

Wow! I can just hear you shout: "Jesus, that's not fair! YOU tricked me into believing I simply could be saved by grace because I could not overcome sin. Didn't you see me prophesing and teaching the gospel of grace in Your name? And now you have the nerve to tell me that You never knew me? And all because I simply practiced LAWLESSNESS?" (See Matt. 7:21-23)

[Woody]

Quote:

Huh? Are you saying that when God allowed the tares to be planted along with the wheat (Paul's words in the NT) and allowed the serpant to be in the Garden, that God was at fault?

Who would you place responsibility on for the above?

Your theology continues to confound me.

[Dr. Rich]

God has never changed anything. As He tested The Man (Adam), so He tests you and me and everyone else. How? Adam with the tree and allowed Satan access to the garden to be fair. Same with Job. Well then, just what is the test for people now? Jesus told us it would be His words verses the words of those who would come in His name (saying they are of Jesus) and even say that Jesus was the Christ, but that they would deceive MANY! Now this does not pertain to the whole world, just to those who are deceived and now call themselves a Christian/Catholic/Adventist.

So please tell me IF you can, just what is/was IT that has deceived the MANY? Or do you believe that Jesus lied about this issue?

And by the way, Matt. 24:4 shows that this would happen during the life time of the disciples too! So what happend back then (their life time) that deceived many? Who was it that deceived many? Who was it who sowed the seeds of the tares in the same place as Jesus' seeds were sowed--the bible? And after Jesus had sowed those seeds of the wheat?

Why did Jesus command His disciples to go to the whole world (including the Gentiles) and teach ONLY the words of Jesus---IF Jesus knew that Paul was going to be chosen to go to the Gentiles and preach another way for them to be saved---by grace?

[Samie]

And I thought we were BACK TO TOPIC...

[miz3]

I think those who believe in the Investigative Judgment have given up. They have no where to go except Ellen White and Ellen White is NOT SCRIPTURE.

The attempts to use linguistic tricks to get the word "investigate" into the Bible demonstrates that the doctrine of the investigative judgment is not a Biblical Principle.

[Lysimachus]

[There is a need to] differentiate between concepts and letters.

While the expression "millennium" does not exist in the Bible, it is a word derived from the 1000 years.

While the words "futurism", "preterism", and "historicism" are not in the Bible, these are all concepts in order to categorize certain perspectives on prophetic interpretation.

Likewise, the "Investigative Judgment" is an expression to convey a "concept" that is absolutely, and unequivocally taught in scripture.

We have already provided ... sound irrefutable evidence to convey these thoughts. ...

You have still not addressed the web-addresses I gave you that clearly reveal the Biblical position of the Investigative Judgment. ...

...

[tall73]

It would be easier for a leopard to change his spots than for any pastor, leader or teacher within the SDA church to change their belief. Why? Because they have been deceived and God said so and I am just repeating what was prophesied in Rev. 2 and 3!

Pastors and scholars in the SDA church do change their mind.

Do you mean in regards to a particular point or in general?

[tall73]

I think those who believe in the Investigative Judgment have given up. They have no where to go except Ellen White and Ellen White is NOT SCRIPTURE.

The attempts to use linguistic tricks to get the word "investigate" into the Bible demonstrates that the doctrine of the investigative judgment is not a Biblical Principle.

I don't agree with all the particulars of the the Adventist IJ, but I think it is fair to say that there will be investigation.

It is just that most of the texts indicate that the person being investigated will be present and that is not the case with the Adventist IJ. And most of the investigation winds up being the person confessing and bowing the knee (which also can't happen at the Adventist IJ as they are not present).

You don't need the word to prove the notion of investigation.