Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 One of the purposes of the Investigative Judgment is to distinguish between those who are Christ's true followers and those who merely made a claim to be His followers but who "made the choice to sin and keep on sinning." Originally Posted By: miz3 Are you saying that God does not know this and has not always known this? No, the Investigation of people's lives is not for God's benefit. As you point out, God already knows. But the Bible itself contains overwhelming evidence that God tests, or investigates, people's hearts and lives. The Greek word in the NT is the same word used in modern Greece for police investigation. For instance: Rev. 2:2:... all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth [investigates] the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Jeremiah 17:10: I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings. Job is a good example of an instance where God tested a man, not in order to find out what Job would do, but in order for Satan to learn what Job would do, and in order for Job to learn something about both himself and about God. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 "And if anyone hears My words/sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for i did not come to judge, but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him AT THE LAST DAY. And I did not speak on My own initative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what do say, and what to speak. And I know that His Commandment is eternal life, therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." (See John 12:47-50) "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in THE DAY OF JUDGMENT than for that city." (See Matt. 10:15) So don't you think it is foolish to believe that God takes over 160 years to do His 'investigation'? I remember reading where EGW said that no one else could be saved, but yet she changed her mind--several times at that! while I was at Campion Academy, I heard that one just might be 'investigated' while he is at a movie theater so one must not go to them at any time! I seriously doubt that God needs 160 years or more to investigate anything! Surely He already knows who's name is in the book of life or not!
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 I agree with you miz3 See post #519045. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 ...I remember reading where EGW said that no one else could be saved, but yet she changed her mind--several times at that! You're spreading more misinformation. She never claimed that God showed her that no one else could be saved. She did believe at one time that the door of mercy was closed, but the visions God gave her showed her that it was an error. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 So don't you think it is foolish to believe that God takes over 160 years to do His 'investigation'? .... I seriously doubt that God needs 160 years or more to investigate anything! Surely He already knows who's name is in the book of life or not! It would be foolish indeed to think that God needs 160 years to investigate. But then no one who understands the Investigative Judgment believes God needs them. In fact, it has already been said that the Investigative Judgment is not for the purpose of God's learning anything. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 :) (wink wink). Sure John, and I once saw it rain cats and dogs too. I'm not gonna fall for another rail switch!
miz3 Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: John317 One of the purposes of the Investigative Judgment is to distinguish between those who are Christ's true followers and those who merely made a claim to be His followers but who "made the choice to sin and keep on sinning." Originally Posted By: miz3 Are you saying that God does not know this and has not always known this? No, the Investigation of people's lives is not for God's benefit. As you point out, God already knows. But the Bible itself contains overwhelming evidence that God tests, or investigates, people's hearts and lives. The Greek word in the NT is the same word used in modern Greece for police investigation. For instance: Rev. 2:2:... all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth [investigates] the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Jeremiah 17:10: I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings. Job is a good example of an instance where God tested a man, not in order to find out what Job would do, but in order for Satan to learn what Job would do, and in order for Job to learn something about both himself and about God. This is a long way from saying such "searching" happens in a formal setting. These texts are talking about God doing these things on His Own on an individual human basis. Nothing here says anything at all either directly and/or implied that such "searching" takes place in a formal setting called the Investigative Judgment. Once again John317 you are grabbing desperately at straws. You are just throwing up texts hoping that one or more will some how stick and everyone will go "oh, yah, there it is". No dice my friend. None of the texts cited so far by you on this thread even comes close to showing an Investigative Judgment. Your far away from your goal.
miz3 Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich ...I remember reading where EGW said that no one else could be saved, but yet she changed her mind--several times at that! You're spreading more misinformation. She never claimed that God showed her that no one else could be saved. She did believe at one time that the door of mercy was closed, but the visions God gave her showed her that it was an error. Didn't she say that God told her the "Door was Shut" just before the disappointment. Then later in the 1850s she changed her mind?
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 Didn't she say that God told her the "Door was Shut" just before the disappointment. Then later in the 1850s she changed her mind? God never gave EGW visions before December 1844, and no, she never claimed that God showed her that the door of mercy was shut. This was the view of many of the Millerites, but no one ever claimed that God showed them that this was true. If you believe otherwise, produce the documentation. She did change her mind but it was the result of the visions, and she changed her mind to believe that the door of mercy was indeed open. She was shown that the Three Angels Messages were still to be proclaimed to the whole world. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 John317, are you really aware of what happened, or are you attempting to get people to think I am intentionally deceiving them by saying truthful things about EGW? Here are words from others on this same issue--to which I fully agree because of MY OWN research! You can take it or leave it as each one of us has to go thru that judgment found in Rev. 21:8, 27 and 22:15. Ellen White had visions supporting this "shut door" doctrine, and James White's paper--Present Truth--trumpeted the shut door teaching up until late 1850. The doctrine was rejected by William Miller and most of the leaders in the Millerite movement. It was accepted by a small number of followers of Joseph Bates and the Whites. In early 1850 the "shut door" began to slip open. Those who were Christians in 1844, but had not had opportunity to hear Miller's time-setting message were allowed to enter the church. Near the end of 1850 the "shut door" opened a little further. The Adventists were shocked when a man who was a non-believer in 1844 accepted the Adventist message in August, 1850, and started attending their meetings. It was their first conversion of an unconverted man since 1844! In 1851, when it became evident that Christ was not going to return, the Whites modified their teaching on the "shut door". James White abandoned the Present Truth magazine and started a new magazine, the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. He reprinted his wife's visions in 1851, but was careful to remove those parts referencing the erroneous "shut door" doctrine. The doctrine disappeared from the writings of the leaders and most of the new converts into the church never heard of it nor had any idea that their prophet had seen a "shut door" of salvation in her visions
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 John317, are you really aware of what happened, or are you attempting to get people to think I am intentionally deceiving them by saying truthful things about EGW? Here are words from others on this same issue--to which I fully agree because of MY OWN research! Yes, just like you try to deceive people into believing that Peter was tricked by Satan on the day of Pentecost, and as you want people to believe Satan was allowed to plant false teachings in the New Testament. You teach that most of the NT is false, including Mark and Luke. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 Ellen White had visions supporting this "shut door" doctrine, and James White's paper--Present Truth--trumpeted the shut door teaching up until late 1850. Quote the vision, or EG White's writings, and give the references. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 James White abandoned the Present Truth magazine and started a new magazine, the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. He reprinted his wife's visions in 1851, but was careful to remove those parts referencing the erroneous "shut door" doctrine. The doctrine disappeared from the writings of the leaders and most of the new converts into the church never heard of it nor had any idea that their prophet had seen a "shut door" of salvation in her visions Prove this; give the quotes and the references. What EGW visions or writings were changed? Be specific. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 One of the purposes of the Investigative Judgment is to distinguish between those who are Christ's true followers and those who merely made a claim to be His followers but who "made the choice to sin and keep on sinning." Originally Posted By: miz3 Are you saying that God does not know this and has not always known this? Originally Posted By: John3:17 No, the Investigation of people's lives is not for God's benefit. As you point out, God already knows. But the Bible itself contains overwhelming evidence that God tests, or investigates, people's hearts and lives. The Greek word in the NT is the same word used in modern Greece for police investigation. For instance: Rev. 2:2:... all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth [investigates] the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Jeremiah 17:10: I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings. Originally Posted By: miz3 This is a long way from saying such "searching" happens in a formal setting.These texts are talking about God doing these things on His Own Right now I am only establishing that the Bible contains proof that God tests/investigatives people's lives, and that He does this even though He already knows who is saved and who is lost. In other words, God's "investigation" is not the purpose of His learning anything new about the people. Do you agree the Bible teaches that God tests, or investigates, the lives of people, and that this is in the context of rewarding people for what they've done? Later I will show linguistic evidence that the original words in the Bible refer to "investigation." John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich John317, are you really aware of what happened, or are you attempting to get people to think I am intentionally deceiving them by saying truthful things about EGW? Here are words from others on this same issue--to which I fully agree because of MY OWN research! Yes, just like you try to deceive people into believing that Peter was tricked by Satan on the day of Pentecost, and as you want people to believe Satan was allowed to plant false teachings in the New Testament. You teach that most of the NT is false, including Mark and Luke. John317 my friend, it's NOT about you or me--it's all about the truth that Jesus said He came to this world to teach and testify about. Let's not dig up stuff you 'think' I believe or not, as that is not the issue here. But for the record, I seriously doubt if what Luke wrote about the Pentecost ever happened! AND, for the record, I merely teach the words of Jesus, the same thing that Jesus commanded the disciples to do as found in Matt. 28. So please don't be caught being guilty of violating the 9th commandment!
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 Spiritual cleanness is all that God cares about. So, then, God does not care how we treat our body-temples or whether we put junk into our bodies? Lev. 11 is proof that God does care what human beings eat. Other verses show that God cares about what we drink. Ephes. 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, Consider again the following texts of Holy Scripture: 3 John 1:2 Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul. 1 Cor. 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 1 Cor. 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, [20] for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Cor. 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. NOTE: God warns us against destroying our body-temples, which we do by causing our bodies to become unhealthy. Many people commit a slow suicide, putting things into their bodies and otherwise treating them in a way that they know does damage to them. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich James White abandoned the Present Truth magazine and started a new magazine, the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. He reprinted his wife's visions in 1851, but was careful to remove those parts referencing the erroneous "shut door" doctrine. The doctrine disappeared from the writings of the leaders and most of the new converts into the church never heard of it nor had any idea that their prophet had seen a "shut door" of salvation in her visions Prove this; give the quotes and the references. What EGW visions or writings were changed? Be specific. John317 my friend, again I plead with you to stop trying to derail this thread. You and everyone here are free to research this issue for themselves as I have. You can believe what you want as it is clear that is what you are doing. Both Miz3 and I are shaking our heads wondering how in the world you want to argue about this when all one has to do is read for themselves by googling the issue. Here is one site that may help clear the cobwebs from your mind: http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw2.htm I doubt if you will agree, but that is your choice. And again friends, it's not about me or even EGW--its' all about Jesus and what He said and taught and I am sure even Ted Wilson would agree with this!
Dr. Rich Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 John317, of course God wants His people to be healthy! Neither Miz3 nor I never said anything about being unhealthy--did we? But again, that's NOT the issue! What really counts is your spiritual health! I suppose you would say that God did not mean to say what He did in Deut. 14:26 and Ish. 25:6. No John317, I try to avoid strong drink and anything that may be harmful to my health. But more than this, I also watch what I say and do all the while knowing that 'it is not what you eat or drink, but what you say and do' that one is rewarded for as found in Rev. 22:12.
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich James White abandoned the Present Truth magazine and started a new magazine, the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. He reprinted his wife's visions in 1851, but was careful to remove those parts referencing the erroneous "shut door" doctrine. The doctrine disappeared from the writings of the leaders and most of the new converts into the church never heard of it nor had any idea that their prophet had seen a "shut door" of salvation in her visions Prove this; give the quotes and the references. What EGW visions or writings were changed? Be specific. Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich John317 my friend, again I plead with you to stop trying to derail this thread. First of all, I am the one who started the thread. Therefore I do have some say over what's considered off topic. Second, after all the posts you made which derailed the thread, are you now urging me not to ask you for evidence in support of your claims? You made an allegation that the White's were liars and tried to deceive people. I am asking you to show the evidence you claim to have. That seems pretty reasonable to me. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 Yes, just like you try to deceive people into believing that Peter was tricked by Satan on the day of Pentecost, and as you want people to believe Satan was allowed to plant false teachings in the New Testament. You teach that most of the NT is false, including Mark and Luke. Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Let's not dig up stuff you 'think' I believe or not, as that is not the issue here. But for the record, I seriously doubt if what Luke wrote about the Pentecost ever happened! I am merely telling what you've posted over the years and what's in the book you support, The Spirit of the Church, written by Musicman and Wayfinder. You've said that you believe Acts 2: 2 shows that it was Satan who deceived Peter and the other disciples on the day of Pentecost into thinking it was the Holy Spirit when in reality it was Satan's power which came on them as "tongues of fire." John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 ... it's NOT about you or me--it's all about the truth that Jesus said He came to this world to teach and testify about. We agree here. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich James White abandoned the Present Truth magazine and started a new magazine, the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. He reprinted his wife's visions in 1851, but was careful to remove those parts referencing the erroneous "shut door" doctrine. The doctrine disappeared from the writings of the leaders and most of the new converts into the church never heard of it nor had any idea that their prophet had seen a "shut door" of salvation in her visions Prove this; give the quotes and the references. What EGW visions or writings were changed? Be specific.
miz3 Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Right now I am only establishing that the Bible contains proof that God tests/investigatives people's lives, and that He does this even though He already knows who is saved and who is lost. In other words, God's "investigation" is not the purpose of His learning anything new about the people. Do you agree the Bible teaches that God tests, or investigates, the lives of people, and that this is in the context of rewarding people for what they've done? Later I will show linguistic evidence that the original words in the Bible refer to "investigation." 1. God does not "investigate" because He already knows. You "investigate" WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW. No idiot "investigates" what s/he already knows. However people do "investigate" things they do NOT KNOW. 2. No John317 I do not agree that the Bible teaches that God "investigates". You are trying to mix two different processes. "Testing" is a whole different process. God does "test". However God DOES NOT INVESTIGATE. 3. God already knows people in every way so He also knows what reward they deserve. No test is necessary for Him to know how to "reward" people. Man John317 are you ever mixed up about the Bible and what it actually says. Again, this is because you follow the "human centric" view of the Bible. By the way Ellen White also follows the "human centric" view of the Bible.
miz3 Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: miz3 Spiritual cleanness is all that God cares about. So, then, God does not care how we treat our body-temples or whether we put junk into our bodies? Lev. 11 is proof that God does care what human beings eat. Other verses show that God cares about what we drink. Ephes. 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, Consider again the following texts of Holy Scripture: 3 John 1:2 Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul. 1 Cor. 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 1 Cor. 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, [20] for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Cor. 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. NOTE: God warns us against destroying our body-temples, which we do by causing our bodies to become unhealthy. Many people commit a slow suicide, putting things into their bodies and otherwise treating them in a way that they know does damage to them. You took me out of context a thing you often do to make people look bad. I never ever said God does not care how we treat our bodies. I said that all God cares about is Spiritual Cleanness. Now what do you think Spiritual Cleanness means? If you know what it means then you will also know how silly your questions are and how off base you are about my statement. Again, please John317 tell me what you think I mean by Spiritual Cleanness.
Moderators John317 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Moderators Posted January 31, 2012 ...1. God does not "investigate" because He already knows. You "investigate" WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW. No idiot "investigates" what s/he already knows. However people do "investigate" things they do NOT KNOW. 2. No John317 I do not agree that the Bible teaches that God "investigates". You are trying to mix two different processes. "Testing" is a whole different process. God does "test". However God DOES NOT INVESTIGATE. But the Bible itself contains overwhelming evidence that God does indeed test, or investigate, people's hearts and lives. The Greek word in the NT is the same word, ereunao, used in modern Greece to describe a police investigation. For instance: Rev. 2:23:... all the churches shall know that I am he which searches [investigates] [Gk ereunao] men's inmost hearts: and I will give to every one of you according to your works. NOTE: Observe that God searches/investigates the hearts of people. Notice also that this search or investigation is in the context of "giving to everyone according to their works." Jeremiah 17:10: I the LORD search [Heb chaqar, examine intimately] the heart, and examine [bachan, investigate]the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, [and] according to what his deeds deserve.(NIV) NOTE: What is the difference between examining intimately and investigating? No real difference, is there? Psalm 11:4-5 The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test (bachan-- investigates), the children of man. [5] The Lord tests (bachan--investigates) the righteous Jeremiah 20:12 O Lord of hosts, who examine (bachan, investigate) the righteous, and probe the heart and the mind (NIV) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Recommended Posts