The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[Lysimachus]

Marcos, I do not need your advise. Actually, I can only name a few others who have researched this issue as much as I have, and I have found that ALL, and I do mean ALL, of those you named as your teachers, including the one with the video, are totally clueless as to what the real truth is. It would be easier for a leopard to change his spots than for any pastor, leader or teacher within the SDA church to change their belief. Why? Because they have been deceived and God said so and I am just repeating what was prophesied in Rev. 2 and 3! Since you admit that you NEED someone's words other than the words of Jesus to fully understand salvation, then let me be the one to advise you and others to please be very careful because Jesus warned us that many would come in the name of Jesus and say that Jesus is the Christ, but would deceive and mislead many! The words of Jesus will NEVER mislead anyone and that is why I have chosen to follow only the words of Jesus.

I ask the question again, why so those found in the seventh warning as found in Rev. 3, think they can see, clothed and so rich they are in need of nothing? When you figure that out, perhaps you will have your eyes opened.

Alright, if you believe that the doctrine under discussion is full of error, I have a suggestion.

Instead of showing "why" this doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, the 2300 days, and 1844 is "wrong" and "error", my best recommendation would be to simply present the "alternative".

Present your case, systematically....give a full, thorough, Bible presentation of what you believe concerning these issues. For example, describe in detail what you believe the 2300 days mean?

What date does it start, when does it end?

What does "cleansing" the sanctuary mean to you?

Do you believe in the day-year principle?

If so, do you interpret the 2300 days as literal days or years?

And if so, when do you terminate the 2300 days? In 1844?

If not, when?

If so, what exactly happened in 1844?

If they are literal days, what do the 2300 days apply to, and what era?

Do you believe the 70 weeks are a part of the 2300 days?

How do you interpret "the hour of His judgment has come" in Revelation 14?

What does that mean to you?

When did it begin?

Is it still future? or past?

This is why I have more tolerance for Dispensationalists. They have a DEFINED theology. I know exactly what they believe, and I know EXACTLY how to argue with them.

They have an "alternative" interpretation to the passages in question, and that makes it easier for me.

But when people like you, Dr. Rich, who have grown up Adventist, yet you are critical of our Adventist doctrines, everything becomes a "mesh-podge" of interweaving Evangelical thinking with Adventist thinking, and it becomes this big MIX....

...It's almost as if though, the critic to Adventism does not like our doctrines, but the alternatives in the Evangelical world do not satisfy the critic of Adventism either, so then they have to try and get in-between and somehow jumble together and concoct their own ideology, but it is very confusing because they have no "DEFINED" theology.

It would be wonderful if you can present your STATEMENT OF BELIEFS to me on a silver platter, and THEN I can address your arguments more intelligently.

Or do you have a statement of beliefs?

If not, that's your problem right there my friend!

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

OK then, are you saying the verses in post #519176 have nothing to do with the IJ that you claimed started in 1844?

All we are saying at this point is that the Bible contains strong, clear evidence that God does indeed "investigate" and "search" human hearts and lives. Secondly, we are saying that this "search"/"investigation" is in the context of rewarding people for the deeds they've done. See Rev. 2: 23.

This is directly contrary to those who say God does not investigatve people's hearts.

Later we'll present evidence about the timing of the Judgment. We're taking one step at a time.

So, are you with Lysimachus in the response he posted in post #519341?

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Marcos, I do not need your advise. Actually, I can only name a few others who have researched this issue as much as I have, and I have found that ALL, and I do mean ALL, of those you named as your teachers, including the one with the video, are totally clueless as to what the real truth is.

How can you say this when you are someone who believes that Paul and Peter and Jude and James and Mark and Luke were all false, that Acts 2: 3 should read "a tongue" instead of "tongues", and that it was the Devil and not the Holy Spirit who inspired Peter on the day of Pentecost?

Talk about clueless and confused!

You must have mistaken me with someone else. You have NO reason to say such a thing as it is false tesimony, a clear violation of the 9th commandment. Again, to set the record straight, Paul was a false apostle as found in Rev. 2:2 and has deceivied the entire Christian and Catholic foundations. I have evidence to prove my view.

As for Peter, he was a true Apostle. Not sure where you got that I ever said that Peter was a false apostle???? But Peter did NOT write 2nd Peter as the evidence will prove.

James was the brother of Jesus and at one time wanted Jesus killed. Yes, much of James is good, but there are a few wormy apples in the barrel. I have no problem with Mark as it appears that he simple wrote for Peter.

Luke wrote for a Roman official and his words were not even intended to be seen by anyone else. Luke was a gentile greek (nothing wrong with this on it's own), who was a follower of Paul. Many of the stories of Luke do not agree with the words of Matthew, Mark and John.

Your regretful and hateful attidude toward the writers of the book called "The Spirit of the Church" now make me one who said anything about the tongue or tongues as it makes no difference to me either way. However, it still is my opinion that Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His disciples as found in John 20:21-22 and not as found in Acts 2 as only one can be the truth and I choose to follow the words of Jesus as given to us by His eyewitnesses. Besides, Matthew, Mark and John do not have Jesus telling His disciples to wait for Him in Jerusalem, but by the Sea of Galilee--a long distance from Jerusalem--check it out yourself! It's little things like this that most overlook because they just assume or presume--and both of these are pet peeves of mine!

So John317 my friend, I guess your pride will not allow you to see IT the way I do, but I do hope some day you will.

[BobRyan]

It seems to me that the most succinct

Judgment "passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 is a judgment involving saints. And as Dan 7 points out - this all happens before the 2nd coming and after the fall of the Roman empire.

Another text - 2Cor 5:10 shows us that the future judgment that includes the saints - is a judgment based on deeds "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to given an account for the deeds done in the body whether good or evil".

Then of course we have Rom 2:13-16 where it is not the "hearers of the law of God that are just before God but the doers of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge".

Hence the "everlasting gospel" Rev 14:6 message at the heart of the Seventh-day Adventist mission - "fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment HAS come".Rev 14:7

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Marcos, I do not need your advise. Actually, I can only name a few others who have researched this issue as much as I have, and I have found that ALL, and I do mean ALL, of those you named as your teachers, including the one with the video, are totally clueless as to what the real truth is. It would be easier for a leopard to change his spots than for any pastor, leader or teacher within the SDA church to change their belief. Why? Because they have been deceived and God said so and I am just repeating what was prophesied in Rev. 2 and 3! Since you admit that you NEED someone's words other than the words of Jesus to fully understand salvation, then let me be the one to advise you and others to please be very careful because Jesus warned us that many would come in the name of Jesus and say that Jesus is the Christ, but would deceive and mislead many! The words of Jesus will NEVER mislead anyone and that is why I have chosen to follow only the words of Jesus.

I ask the question again, why so those found in the seventh warning as found in Rev. 3, think they can see, clothed and so rich they are in need of nothing? When you figure that out, perhaps you will have your eyes opened.

Alright, if you believe that the doctrine under discussion is full of error, I have a suggestion.

Instead of showing "why" this doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, the 2300 days, and 1844 is "wrong" and "error", my best recommendation would be to simply present the "alternative".

Present your case, systematically....give a full, thorough, Bible presentation of what you believe concerning these issues. For example, describe in detail what you believe the 2300 days mean?

What date does it start, when does it end?

What does "cleansing" the sanctuary mean to you?

Do you believe in the day-year principle?

If so, do you interpret the 2300 days as literal days or years?

And if so, when do you terminate the 2300 days? In 1844?

If not, when?

If so, what exactly happened in 1844?

If they are literal days, what do the 2300 days apply to, and what era?

Do you believe the 70 weeks are a part of the 2300 days?

How do you interpret "the hour of His judgment has come" in Revelation 14?

What does that mean to you?

When did it begin?

Is it still future? or past?

This is why I have more tolerance for Dispensationalists. They have a DEFINED theology. I know exactly what they believe, and I know EXACTLY how to argue with them.

They have an "alternative" interpretation to the passages in question, and that makes it easier for me.

But when people like you, Dr. Rich, who have grown up Adventist, yet you are critical of our Adventist doctrines, everything becomes a "mesh-podge" of interweaving Evangelical thinking with Adventist thinking, and it becomes this big MIX....

...It's almost as if though, the critic to Adventism does not like our doctrines, but the alternatives in the Evangelical world do not satisfy the critic of Adventism either, so then they have to try and get in-between and somehow jumble together and concoct their own ideology, but it is very confusing because they have no "DEFINED" theology.

It would be wonderful if you can present your STATEMENT OF BELIEFS to me on a silver platter, and THEN I can address your arguments more intelligently.

Or do you have a statement of beliefs?

If not, that's your problem right there my friend!

Hey Marcos, I am glad you asked. Here it is: http://web.mac.com/spiritoftruth/STM/Must_Read/Entries/2010/6/15_Two_Atonements.html Please enjoy and you are free to read the other "must read" articles as they too will probably shock you. However, all I ask is that just like you did above, IF you find anything wrong, please show me/us by using the words of Jesus and the OT ONLY. Enjoy.

[John317]

2. You don't get it. These other words are NOT SYNONYMS FOR THE WORD "INVESTIGATE".

You've seen the Greek word and its definitions according to the Greek-English lexicons.

Now let's look at the Hebrew:

James Strong's Hebrew dictionary defines the Hebrew term, bachan, in this way:

"974 bachan (baw-khan'); a primitive root; to test. ...; generally and figuratively, to investigate: KJV-- examine, prove, tempt, try (trial)."

The Complete English-Hebrew Dictionary, by Reuben Alcalay, lists bachan as one of several terms that express the idea of investigate. (See page 1959)

In Brown Driver & Brigss Hebrew Lexicon, bachan is defined in this way:

A) to examine, to try, to prove

1) (Qal)

a) to examine, scrutinize.

to test, prove, try (used of gold, persons, the heart, a man of God).

2) (Niphal) to be tried, proved.

3) (Pual) to make a trial.

Jeremiah 11:20

But, O Lord of hosts, who judges righteously,

who tests (bachan) the heart and the mind,

Jeremiah 17:10

"I the Lord search (chaqar) the heart

and test (bachan) the mind,

to give every man according to his ways,

according to the fruit of his deeds."

As for chaqar, James Strong defines it this way:

"2313 chaqar (khaw-kar'); a primitive root; properly, to penetrate; hence, to examine intimately."

If one wanted to speak of an investigation in the language of the Old Testament, Hebrew, a term that could be used is bachan. If we were in Israel today and wanted to ask the police to investigate a crime, this word could be used to convey our desires to the authorities.

[Lysimachus]

You must have mistaken me with someone else. You have NO reason to say such a thing as it is false tesimony, a clear violation of the 9th commandment. Again, to set the record straight, Paul was a false apostle as found in Rev. 2:2 and has deceivied the entire Christian and Catholic foundations. I have evidence to prove my view.

As for Peter, he was a true Apostle. Not sure where you got that I ever said that Peter was a false apostle???? But Peter did NOT write 2nd Peter as the evidence will prove.

James was the brother of Jesus and at one time wanted Jesus killed. Yes, much of James is good, but there are a few wormy apples in the barrel. I have no problem with Mark as it appears that he simple wrote for Peter.

Luke wrote for a Roman official and his words were not even intended to be seen by anyone else. Luke was a gentile greek (nothing wrong with this on it's own), who was a follower of Paul. Many of the stories of Luke do not agree with the words of Matthew, Mark and John.

Your regretful and hateful attidude toward the writers of the book called "The Spirit of the Church" now make me one who said anything about the tongue or tongues as it makes no difference to me either way. However, it still is my opinion that Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His disciples as found in John 20:21-22 and not as found in Acts 2 as only one can be the truth and I choose to follow the words of Jesus as given to us by His eyewitnesses. Besides, Matthew, Mark and John do not have Jesus telling His disciples to wait for Him in Jerusalem, but by the Sea of Galilee--a long distance from Jerusalem--check it out yourself! It's little things like this that most overlook because they just assume or presume--and both of these are pet peeves of mine!

So John317 my friend, I guess your pride will not allow you to see IT the way I do, but I do hope some day you will.

I look forward to the day when you can provide even a shred of evidence that Paul was a false Apostle. In all the posts you have posted over the years, I have not seen it. Perhaps there are some articles you have on the net somewhere concerning this "proof"?

If so, I'd love to see it. I doubt it stands the test of scrutinizing scholarship.

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, read the book called "The Spirit of the Church" by Neufeld and Sterling. There you will find the evidence you are looking for.

But answer the question--why do you need someone other than Jesus' words to fully understand how salvation works? Are you saying that the ministry of Jesus testifying to His Father's words was a failure?

[John317]

...IF you find anything wrong, please show me/us by using the words of Jesus and the OT ONLY. Enjoy.

The entire Bible is the Word of God and authoritative.

It says a lot that you accept only Matthew, John, and Revelation, & reject almost the entire New Testament. From the Christian viewpoint, that's like trying to go upstream with one paddle.

It's no wonder you reject the Investigative Judgment and so many other teachings of the Bible and of the SDA church.

[John317]

Marcos, read the book called "The Spirit of the Church" by Neufeld and Sterling. There you will find the evidence you are looking for.

You have to be kidding, Dr. Rich. That book is so full of errors that it's pathetic.

For instance, it teaches that Peter was tricked by Satan at Pentecost into thinking he was inspired by the Holy Spirit when it was actually the Devil who inspired him.

It teaches that Acts 2: 3 should be translated as "a tongue" instead of "tongues." And this despite the fact that the Greek noun is plural.

Dozens of such blatant errors could be cited.

The book would put any self-respecting Bible scholar to shame.

[Lysimachus]

Marcos, read the book called "The Spirit of the Church" by Neufeld and Sterling. There you will find the evidence you are looking for.

But answer the question--why do you need someone other than Jesus' words to fully understand how salvation works? Are you saying that the ministry of Jesus testifying to His Father's words was a failure?

So maybe we should throw out the whole Old Testament? Because they were prophets writing the words Jesus was conveying to them from heaven.

I don't see your logic that only the words of Jesus WHILE on earth must suffice. I believe the words of Jesus are being spoken to through even me like Paul, John, James, Luke, and through the Spirit of Prophecy manifested in the writings of Ellen White!

All of this is the "words of Jesus". Jesus is just using these humans as instruments or mediums to communicate His words to us.

And it REALLY TESTS people like you Rich. When you deny His prophets, you are denying HIM--whether you realize it or not.

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks for the great book review John317! Too bad you can't prove a thing you said about it just like you can't prove a thing about the IJ! I suppose you hold out yourself to be a great sc(h)olor, well so did many of the leaders of the Jews when they treated Jesus the same way you are treating the writers here. Neither of the authors are preachers or leaders in the SDA church--they are simple part of the flock. They got tired of being told lies and over 18 years ago decided to leave the doctrines at the door and seek the truth themselves by fully investigating what was in the bible. The book was not written to make money or win over friends or family. It simply points out the difference betweenn the wheat and the tares and why. Even you Jim, can't come up with a good answer as to who today are the wheat and who are the tares! Neither can you come up with good answer as to why Paul's god refused to remove the demon given to him as found in 2Cor. 12:7. And of course you can't even show me evidence of what happend to Paul, can you?

By the way, I will gladly debate this issue with anyone as long as they use the words of Jesus and the OT for the test of truth. Jim, I have offered to debate you on my internet radio program called "The Bible On Trial" but you have refused to do so--right? After all Rev. 2:2 has God approving of putting those who called themselves apostles to a test!

[Lysimachus]

Thanks for the great book review John317! Too bad you can't prove a thing you said about it just like you can't prove a thing about the IJ! I suppose you hold out yourself to be a great sc(h)olor, well so did many of the leaders of the Jews when they treated Jesus the same way you are treating the writers here. Neither of the authors are preachers or leaders in the SDA church--they are simple part of the flock. They got tired of being told lies and over 18 years ago decided to leave the doctrines at the door and seek the truth themselves by fully investigating what was in the bible. The book was not written to make money or win over friends or family. It simply points out the difference betweenn the wheat and the tares and why. Even you Jim, can't come up with a good answer as to who today are the wheat and who are the tares! Neither can you come up with good answer as to why Paul's god refused to remove the demon given to him as found in 2Cor. 12:7. And of course you can't even show me evidence of what happend to Paul, can you?

By the way, I will gladly debate this issue with anyone as long as they use the words of Jesus and the OT for the test of truth. Jim, I have offered to debate you on my internet radio program called "The Bible On Trial" but you have refused to do so--right? After all Rev. 2:2 has God approving of putting those who called themselves apostles to a test!

Dr. Rich, your beliefs are what I call the "Mega Monkey Wrench" to the Christian cause.

[John317]

b. Your words "test", "examine intimately", "see", etc. etc. are not synonyms of the word "investigate".

Jeremiah 17:10

"I the Lord search (chaqar) the heart

and test (bachan) the mind,

to give every man according to his ways,

according to the fruit of his deeds."

As for chaqar, James Strong defines it this way:

"2313 chaqar (khaw-kar'); a primitive root; properly, to penetrate; hence, to examine intimately."

When God examines intimately the hearts and lives of people in order to give every man according to the fruit of his deeds, God is judging, is He not?

[John317]

Thanks for the great book review John317! Too bad you can't prove a thing you said about it just like you can't prove a thing about the IJ!

I could easily quote from the book and cite the page number.

What is it about the book that you think I couldn't prove?

Are you denying that the Greek noun translated "tongues" in Acts 2: 3 is plural?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Marcos, I do not need your advise. Actually, I can only name a few others who have researched this issue as much as I have, and I have found that ALL, and I do mean ALL, of those you named as your teachers, including the one with the video, are totally clueless as to what the real truth is. It would be easier for a leopard to change his spots than for any pastor, leader or teacher within the SDA church to change their belief. Why? Because they have been deceived and God said so and I am just repeating what was prophesied in Rev. 2 and 3! Since you admit that you NEED someone's words other than the words of Jesus to fully understand salvation, then let me be the one to advise you and others to please be very careful because Jesus warned us that many would come in the name of Jesus and say that Jesus is the Christ, but would deceive and mislead many! The words of Jesus will NEVER mislead anyone and that is why I have chosen to follow only the words of Jesus.

I ask the question again, why so those found in the seventh warning as found in Rev. 3, think they can see, clothed and so rich they are in need of nothing? When you figure that out, perhaps you will have your eyes opened.

Alright, if you believe that the doctrine under discussion is full of error, I have a suggestion.

Instead of showing "why" this doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, the 2300 days, and 1844 is "wrong" and "error", my best recommendation would be to simply present the "alternative".

Present your case, systematically....give a full, thorough, Bible presentation of what you believe concerning these issues. For example, describe in detail what you believe the 2300 days mean?

What date does it start, when does it end?

What does "cleansing" the sanctuary mean to you?

Do you believe in the day-year principle?

If so, do you interpret the 2300 days as literal days or years?

And if so, when do you terminate the 2300 days? In 1844?

If not, when?

If so, what exactly happened in 1844?

If they are literal days, what do the 2300 days apply to, and what era?

Do you believe the 70 weeks are a part of the 2300 days?

How do you interpret "the hour of His judgment has come" in Revelation 14?

What does that mean to you?

When did it begin?

Is it still future? or past?

This is why I have more tolerance for Dispensationalists. They have a DEFINED theology. I know exactly what they believe, and I know EXACTLY how to argue with them.

They have an "alternative" interpretation to the passages in question, and that makes it easier for me.

But when people like you, Dr. Rich, who have grown up Adventist, yet you are critical of our Adventist doctrines, everything becomes a "mesh-podge" of interweaving Evangelical thinking with Adventist thinking, and it becomes this big MIX....

...It's almost as if though, the critic to Adventism does not like our doctrines, but the alternatives in the Evangelical world do not satisfy the critic of Adventism either, so then they have to try and get in-between and somehow jumble together and concoct their own ideology, but it is very confusing because they have no "DEFINED" theology.

It would be wonderful if you can present your STATEMENT OF BELIEFS to me on a silver platter, and THEN I can address your arguments more intelligently.

Or do you have a statement of beliefs?

If not, that's your problem right there my friend!

This is like the accused criminal on trial for murder saying he wants investigate and put on trial the Judge, the Jury, the Prosecutor, the State, etc. etc.

Don't you see how ridiculous your assertion is?

[Lysimachus]

This is like the accused criminal on trial for murder saying he wants investigate and put on trial the Judge, the Jury, the Prosecutor, the State, etc. etc.

Don't you see how ridiculous your assertion is?

Hey Miz3, while you're at it, how would you like to consider providing your Statement of Beliefs as well?

I'd like to hear your thorough statement of beliefs on all those texts in question, and please provide me sound Biblical, DEFINED answers for those questions.

For example, let's say I'm considering becoming a Christian, and I want to understand the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24-27.

Can you give me a thorough Bible study on this time frame? When it began? When it ended? I need some DEFINED beliefs. The 2300 days is fascinating too. Where in history does this time prophecy fit?

I'm looking forward to a Bible study and some well-defined fundamental statements Miz3!

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, who said the OT was not correct? Jesus verified that the Law and the Prophets were correct with what He said and recorded by Matthew and John. But you will NEVER find anyplace where the bible that we have today was proven to be the inspired words of God. When Paul wrote to Timothy about 'scripture', he was talking about the Law and the Prophets as the bible had not yet been put together.

So Marcos, do you believe the words of Joseph Smith and Muhomad? Why not? didn't they believe God was talking directly to them? How about the guy who murdered an abortion doctor? Didn't he say that it was God who told him to do it?

Jesus said that there were going to be many false teachers and prophets who would deceive many, but can you show me where Jesus said anything about another true prophet coming along other than the Elijah type who is the ONE and only found in Matthew 24:45? I don't think so, why?

Anyone is in danger of listening to voices in their head or even visions, as Satan is a master at deception! 1John 4:1 says to test the spirit for not all spirits come from God. Test the spirit by using the words of Jesus Christ given to us by His eyewitnesses because John told us that false teachers (who called themselves apostles) went out from them but we NOT from them--as did Paul and Luke. Paul said that Jesus was born the way of the flesh so he denied that Jesus was sent from God the Father. Paul also said that Jesus was declarred the Son of God only upon His resurection. (Rom. 1:3-4) Both of these things are false as God told Mary and Joseph that He was the Son of God.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. You don't get it. These other words are NOT SYNONYMS FOR THE WORD "INVESTIGATE".

You've seen the Greek word and its definitions according to the Greek-English lexicons.

Now let's look at the Hebrew:

James Strong's Hebrew dictionary defines the Hebrew term, bachan, in this way:

"974 bachan (baw-khan'); a primitive root; to test. ...; generally and figuratively, to investigate: KJV-- examine, prove, tempt, try (trial)."

The Complete English-Hebrew Dictionary, by Reuben Alcalay, lists bachan as one of several terms that express the idea of investigate. (See page 1959)

In Brown Driver & Brigss Hebrew Lexicon, bachan is defined in this way:

A) to examine, to try, to prove

1) (Qal)

a) to examine, scrutinize.

to test, prove, try (used of gold, persons, the heart, a man of God).

2) (Niphal) to be tried, proved.

3) (Pual) to make a trial.

Jeremiah 11:20

But, O Lord of hosts, who judges righteously,

who tests (bachan) the heart and the mind,

Jeremiah 17:10

"I the Lord search (chaqar) the heart

and test (bachan) the mind,

to give every man according to his ways,

according to the fruit of his deeds."

As for chaqar, James Strong defines it this way:

"2313 chaqar (khaw-kar'); a primitive root; properly, to penetrate; hence, to examine intimately."

If one wanted to speak of an investigation in the language of the Old Testament, Hebrew, a term that could be used is bachan. If we were in Israel today and wanted to ask the police to investigate a crime, this word could be used to convey our desires to the authorities.

I don't care what these lexicons and lexiconers say the words you cite from the Bible ARE NOT SYNONYMS FOR THE WORD "INVESTIGATE".

The FACT that these other words are used is because there is no "investigation" going on.

You cannot make words synonyms that are not synonyms it is just that simple.

Stop trying to misdirect from your problem that the Bible and the Bible only does NOT SUPPORT the Investigative Judgment doctrine.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

b. Your words "test", "examine intimately", "see", etc. etc. are not synonyms of the word "investigate".

Jeremiah 17:10

"I the Lord search (chaqar) the heart

and test (bachan) the mind,

to give every man according to his ways,

according to the fruit of his deeds."

As for chaqar, James Strong defines it this way:

"2313 chaqar (khaw-kar'); a primitive root; properly, to penetrate; hence, to examine intimately."

When God examines intimately the hearts and lives of people in order to give every man according to the fruit of his deeds, God is judging, is He not?

Not synonymous with "investigate".

It is simple, why do you keep trying to ram your square peg into the round hole? It does not fit.

Repeat after me: It does not fit, it does not fit, .......

[John317]

I don't care what these lexicons and lexiconers say the words you cite from the Bible ARE NOT SYNONYMS FOR THE WORD "INVESTIGATE".

The FACT that these other words are used is because there is no "investigation" going on.

What is going on in this verse if it's not an investigation and judgment?

Jeremiah 17:10

"I the Lord search (chaqar) the heart

and test (bachan) the mind,

to give every man according to his ways,

according to the fruit of his deeds."

Doesn't God search and test the hearts and minds of people for the purpose of giving every man according to his conduct and his deeds?

[John317]

Jeremiah 17:10

"I the Lord search (chaqar) the heart

and test (bachan) the mind,

to give every man according to his ways,

according to the fruit of his deeds."

As for chaqar, James Strong defines it this way:

"2313 chaqar (khaw-kar'); a primitive root; properly, to penetrate; hence, to examine intimately."

When God examines intimately the hearts and lives of people in order to give every man according to the fruit of his deeds, God is judging, is He not?

Originally Posted By: miz3

Not synonymous with "investigate".

What's the essential difference?

Is James Strong and the other Hebrew-English lexicons wrong to say that chaqar means "to examine intimately"?

If Jeremiah 17:10 is not talking about God investigating people's hearts and minds, what do you believe it says God is doing?

[John317]

I don't care what these lexicons and lexiconers say the words you cite from the Bible ARE NOT SYNONYMS FOR THE WORD "INVESTIGATE".

Reminds me of the person who says, "Forget the facts; I have my mind already made up."

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I don't care what these lexicons and lexiconers say the words you cite from the Bible ARE NOT SYNONYMS FOR THE WORD "INVESTIGATE".

The FACT that these other words are used is because there is no "investigation" going on.

What is going on in this verse if it's not an investigation and judgment?

Jeremiah 17:10

"I the Lord search (chaqar) the heart

and test (bachan) the mind,

to give every man according to his ways,

according to the fruit of his deeds."

Doesn't God search and test the hearts and minds of people for the purpose of giving every man according to his conduct and his deeds?

As I told you before, God is not setting a singular time aside to do this.

God is constantly, continuously, doing this (searching and testing). Thus, for God He knows everything that is there all the time and knows the reward for such things all the time.

You are trying to make this a singular event of "investigation" and that is NOT what God is doing in this text, Jeremiah 17:10.

God does not "investigate". They are not synonyms.

Your human centric view of God makes you think God is just like human beings with our limitations. God has no limitations. The Bible says that "nothing is impossible with God". That means God is not limited like you and I and does not need to "investigate" like you and I.

This discussion just reinforces the FACT that you have a "human centric view" of God and the Bible, His Word.

[John317]

.... an imaginary 'investigative judgment' that started at the time EGW said she had the vision from her god-Oct. 22, 1844.

It's simple things like this that make Adventists look like fools, but then the 'foolish virgins' will probably look like fools.

But the whole issue is on attempting to prove the IJ has absolutly nothing to do with one's salvation. The way I see it, it's just an attempt to make the words EGW wrote explain away the mistaken event they now call the great dissappointment.

Strange that someone who claims to believe the SDA Church is the Kingdom of Heaven could make the above statements.

The SDA Church wouldn't even exist without EG White and it certainly wouldn't have existed without the Great Disappointment and the teaching of the Investigative Judgment. It's perfectly obvious to me (and should be to other members of the church) that God was directing events in the founding of our Church and in the way it's gone since that time.

If they don't believe this-- and if they believe as you do, that the SDA church was led by a false prophet and came out of a false movement and false teachings by Miller-- then I don't understand why they would want to attend, or be members of, the Seventh-day Adventist Church.