The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[Lysimachus]

Instead of guessing maybe you could try saying "I just don't know".

Doing that would of course demonstrate that the IJ theory is not true and not Biblical.

God interprets His Own Word. Historicist theory is not a viable method of Biblical interpretation.

This is why you are so wrong in your Biblical interpretations.

Dream, Dream, Dream!

[Samie]

Here's the evidence, but you seem strangely resistent to it, even though the proof of it is staring you in the face.

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

It says plainly that they were judged by what was written in the books, and what was written in the books was "what they had done."

[BobRyan]

The entire notion that God is not in the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary - is absolutely without Biblical basis.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

John317,

It seems that the central argument of tall73 is that the cleansing of the sanctuary is not the cleansing of confessed sins by the saints, but the cleansing of sins that are not confessed and polluted the sanctuary. Is this what you are gathering?

If so, I think you and I need to start zeroing in on this particular point he's making more. What do you think?

hm, no.

The Day of Atonement cleansing is a cleansing from sins throughout the year by the saints. we disagree on the method of transmission, but again that is not a big issue to me.

The cleansing in Daniel 8 however is not talking about the sins of the saints. Rather it references the little horn activities and the need for restoration.

[BobRyan]

In Heb 9 - the daily and the inauguration are clearly depicted. Your argument against that relies heavily on the notion that God is not actually in the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary.

[phkrause]

We are told that God is righteous and His law is just and righteous.

The investigative judgement gives the proof of that to those who can't read the heart.

Exactly Gail, excellent point.

[Lysimachus]

In other word's Christ's one-time death is sufficient for Christ's daily and Most Holy Place ministration. Animal sacrifices don't need to be made over and over, but that same blood of that one time sacrifice is made available throughout His daily ministration as well as His Day of Atonement ministration.

I think the critics make a mountain out of a mow-hill with this one. It's not that hard to see.

[Lysimachus]

Yes, Christ needed to die ONCE, but His ministration in the Holy Place fulfilled the earthly daily ministration. Every day priests were available at the door of the tabernacle, but lambs had to be sacrificed every day. Christ was available throughout the daily. Even the regular priests were types of Christ.

If Christ ascended to heaven and went straight to the Most Holy Place and then sat down next to the Father in the Most Holy Place, this would mean that Christ completely bypassed the Holy Place, and that would render the Holy Place useless. Revelation is VERY clear in Revelation 15:5 that there are 2 apartments.

Keep in mind that if atonement were over, then the Day of Atonement would be over. But that makes no sense, because that was the probation day. If you had any unforsaken sins, you were cast out of the congregation of Israel. Probation still exists for mankind as Christ intercedes for us. The benefits of that atonement are being applied daily (not lamb's dying daily, but intercession daily based on that one death--catch the difference).

The daily sacrifices signfied that intercession for the penitent sinner was maid available daily. It signified that Christ, as our High Priest intercedes for us, is available at any time for us to come before and confess our sins. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

[Lysimachus]

Revelation 15:5 - "And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple [NAOS -- inner shrine] OF the TABERNACLE [skene - or entire sanctuary] of the testimony in heaven was opened."

This passage clearly denotes a 2-part sanctuary in heaven. The Greek word "naos" denoted the inner most part of a temple, or "inner shrine". This is the Most Holy Place according to Revelation 11:19.

If the Sanctuary in heaven was all "one" room, John's words in 15:5 would be meaningless. Clearly, the inner shrine of the entire tabernacle structure was opened in heaven, and in 11:19 was seen the Ark of His Testament. :D

[John317]

Not that what were written are "what they had done", because God Himself declared He will remember sins no more. Keeping record of sins is not compatible with not remembering them, and you know it. Please don't go against what God Himself declared by giving a meaning to another verse that would contradict what God Himself pronounced in another verse. Be a real exegete of God's word.

A point we need to keep in mind is that the Bible doesn't tell us WHEN God will not remember sins any more.

It seems to me that you're making assumptions that the Bible gives you no grounds for making.

The Bible plainly gives you evidence that sins are recorded, but if you refuse to acknowledge it, that's up to you.

How can God and Jesus possiby judge anyone if they don't remember what people have done and said?

Jesus Himself said:

"I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, [37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." {Matt 12: 36-37}

NOTE: Don't those verses show us that Jesus will know what sinful things people have spoken?

Jesus' words imply that there's a record of every careless word people speak.

The following verses in the book of Isaiah show that the sins of people are written before Him and that He remembers them:

Quote:

Isaiah 65:3-7-- A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;

65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These [are] a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

65:6 Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

[Lysimachus]

Powerful powerful John317! I'd never heard that passage from Isaiah 65 before. Thanks for sharing.

[John317]

Humans need no mediator between them and God because at the Cross Jesus Christ made it possible for us humans to go directly to the Father for all our inquiries. This is why the "Lord's Prayer" starts "our Father which art in Heaven".

On the Cross Christ mediated once and for all the breach that separated humanity from God.

Adventists have invented the "mediatorial work in the Sanctuary" as the "go between" between God and humanity while the RCC invented the "priest" as mediator.

The Bible and the Bible only supports neither view since Jesus Christ finished all His Work on the Cross (Death/Resurrection) as the Mediator between God and humanity.

All of Christ's work was not finished on the cross.

What was finished on the cross was the shedding of blood, that is to say, the sacrificial death of Christ was indeed completely finished; yet if Christ's work had ended at the cross, the world would still be lost. It was necessary for Christ to be raised from the grave and ascend to heaven to serve as our High Priest in order for us to have salvation.

The reason for Christ's resurrection was so that He could ascend to heaven and serve as mediator between God and man.

We have access to God the FAther only because of the work of Christ both on the cross and as mediator in the heavenly sanctuary. We are "accepted in the beloved."

1 Cor. 15:12-14

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? [13] But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. [14] And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

Consider also the following Bible verses:

1 Tim. 2:5

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 8:1-2

Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, [2] a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.

NOTE: The man Jesus Christ IS the only mediator between God and men. He is our High Priest in the holy places, the true tent, in heaven.

Below, the Scriptures say we are blessed "in Christ," are "accepted in the beloved," and receive reconciliation through Christ.

Ephes. 1:3-6

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: [4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, [6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Romans 5:11

More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Romans 5:10

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

NOTE: While we were reconciled to God by the death of Christ, we are saved by CHRIST'S LIFE. We absolutely need a living Christ, One who provides us with the power to live for God.

Hebrews 4:14, 16--

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

[16]Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help [from our High Priest & Mediator, Jesus Christ] in time of need.

miz3, do you still claim that SDAs invented a fiction about Jesus being our mediator between God and man?

[John317]

Powerful powerful John317! I'd never heard that passage from Isaiah 65 before. Thanks for sharing.

It's interesting, too, that the Nelson Study Bible notes at Isaiah 65: 6 that "It is written refers to the heavenly book that records sin."

At Rev. 20: 12, the same study Bible says, "Books refers to the record of all works done in this life."

The Nelson Study Bible is not written or published by SDAs but is the work of many conservative Christians from different churches, including Baptist. Most of the contributers were educated at such places as Dallas Theological Seminary and Western Conservative Baptist Seminary.

It's one of the best study Bibles I know of.

Concerning Rev. 20: 12, another excellent study Bible, the ESV Study Bible, says, "Books recording their deeds will be opened (Daniel 7: 10), providing the grounds on which each is judged (Romans 2: 6-7). God keeps an accurate record of every human deed, and will reward and punish with perfect justice."

The General Editor of the ESV Study Bible is Wayne Grudem, a highly respected non-SDA theologian and the author of Systematic Theology.

This evidence shows that many Bible-believing Christians outside of the SDA Church understand the Bible to teach that sins are recorded in books in heaven.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Not that what were written are "what they had done", because God Himself declared He will remember sins no more. Keeping record of sins is not compatible with not remembering them, and you know it. Please don't go against what God Himself declared by giving a meaning to another verse that would contradict what God Himself pronounced in another verse. Be a real exegete of God's word.

A point we need to keep in mind is that the Bible doesn't tell us WHEN God will not remember sins any more.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Powerful powerful John317! I'd never heard that passage from Isaiah 65 before. Thanks for sharing.

It's interesting, too, that the Nelson Study Bible notes at Isaiah 65: 6 that "It is written refers to the heavenly book that records sin."

The Nelson Study Bible is not written or published by SDAs but by many conservative Christians from many different churches, including Baptist. Most of the contributers were educated at places like Dallas Theological Seminary and Western Conservative Baptist Seminary.

[John317]

...Had the progenitors of the IJ doctrine been with computers as we are now, then they would have realized how a lifetime data can easily be scanned WiFi style by heavenly intelligences at a mouse-click instead of at a courtroom setting of a lengthy investigation claimed to have started in 1844 where a name is called one after the other starting from the dead.

You make a very good point. SDAs don't believe or teach that we can know exactly or precisely how the sins and our lives are recorded. The Bible refers to "scrolls," but of course people's sins are not recorded in scrolls.

The point is that people's sins are recorded. Whether they are in scrolls or in books or in something like a computer is really irrelevent.

What you say only shows that you misunderstand the Investigative Judgment. SDAs don't believe the Investigative Judgment requires a "lenghty investigation." For one thing, time doesn't mean the same in heaven that it means on the earth.

[John317]

Since judgment is rendered when a man dies (Heb 9:27), it is after a person dies that decision to blot his name or not from the book of life is rendered.

Hebrews 9: 27 doesn't say that immediately after a person dies, the person is judged. Your view would mean the wicked are judged twice: once immediately after death, and then the second time, at the Great White Throne Judgment. That makes no sense and is not biblical.

Notice what the apostle Paul taught:

"[God] has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead {Acts 17: 31}."

This says that God fixed "a day" on which to judged the world. Evidently God was not judging people right after they died. The day of judgment, according to Paul, hadn't taken place yet. This could not be the case if people are judged individually and immediately after they die.

In fact, the Bible says specifically that the wicked will be "destroyed together and will "burn together."

Isaiah 1:28, 31-- And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners [shall be] together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

{31} And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench [them].

Moreover, the dead aren't even conscious of anything.

"The dead know not anything (Ecc. 9: 5)." Jesus said the dead are "alseep" in their graves until He comes and raises them up. Read the case of Lazarus. Jesus called him to "come forth," not "come down."

The second coming and the resurrection is the "blessed hope." Our hope is not in dying, but in being resurrected to meet Jesus in the air when he comes. Nowhere in the Bible is death the hope of the Christian. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that death is our enemy.

Titus 2:13

waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

1 Thes. 4:16-18

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so [in this way] we will always be with the Lord. [18] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

NOTE: Paul describes above IN WHAT WAY we will go to be with the Lord, and it is not when we die. It is at the second coming of the Lord, just as He promised Himself in John 14: 3:

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

NOTE: We will go to be with Jesus when He comes again and takes us to Himself, in order that where He is we may be also.

Originally Posted By: Samie

Christ has assured overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

That's right, but who are the "overcomers"?

People who are NOT overcomers will have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, and they will be punished for their sins, even though they believed they were forgiven.

Isn't that right?

Consider the cases of such people as the ones Jesus described in Matthew 7:21-23:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

NOTE: The above verses are about Church members-- believers-- right?

Don't you suppose they believed their sins were all forgiven?

By the way, has Jesus already told these workers of lawlessness to "depart from" Him?

Or will that come AFTER the judgment?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

...Had the progenitors of the IJ doctrine been with computers as we are now, then they would have realized how a lifetime data can easily be scanned WiFi style by heavenly intelligences at a mouse-click instead of at a courtroom setting of a lengthy investigation claimed to have started in 1844 where a name is called one after the other starting from the dead.

You make a very good point. SDAs don't believe or teach that we can know exactly or precisely how the sins and our lives are recorded. The Bible refers to "scrolls," but of course people's sins are not recorded in scrolls.

The point is that people's sins are recorded. Whether they are in scrolls or in books or in something like a computer is really irrelevent.

[Lysimachus]

Samie,

You keep appealing to Hebrews 10:17 that says, "their sins and iniquities will I remember no more", but the problem is, you are making an assumption that these iniquities which God remembers no more are immediately upon justification.

Nowhere in the text does it say "when". This is a promise--meaning, all those who allow God to write the law in their hearts, He promises that He will remember their sins no more. It's not saying "the moment you are converted, I will remember your sins no more". The text does not say that.

You have to employ scripture with scripture Samie. You can't allow yourself to be absorbed by the "One Johnny Doctrine", where a doctrine is formed on one text, a few texts, or even a single passage. The totality of God's Word must be brought together in order to come to a balanced conclusion of what the Scriptures are saying.

As I pointed out to you earlier, in Isaiah 44:22, God says that He has "blotted out their sins", yet we know, unequivocally, that Israel DID return to their sins, and the armies of Babylon came and destroyed the city and took the Kingdom of Judah captive. At the same time, we know that Christ was sacrificed from the foundation of the world, so, to every repentant sinner, although Christ's physical transaction on the cross did not take place until 2000 years later, it was already "in effect" for the repentant sinner. God often spoke of something that would physically transpire future as though it had already taken place in the past--because the event was foreordained. The plan was set in stone.

Most people do not realize it, but there is not going to be one Jew in heaven that was saved by virtue of the Old Covenant. Although many lived in the Old Covenant "time frame", not one Jew that will be in heaven will have been saved by the Old Covenant promises. Every single Jew that is saved will have been saved BY VIRTUE of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant promises were poor, and this time period represented a time of rebellious Children, where the Children of Israel failed to allow God's law to be written in their hearts. Yet we know that men like Job, David and Solomon did have the law written in their hearts. See Job 22:22; Psalms 37:31; 40:8; 119:34; Proverbs 3:1-3; 7:1-3.

So while they were living in the Old Covenant time frame, their lives revealed that they were having a New Covenant experience.

The Old Covenant became "old" when Israel as a nation failed to keep their promises to God and keep their covenant with Him. This is why in the Old Testament you never ONCE find the Old Covenant called the "OLD" Covenant. It was always just "the covenant". But after Israel failed to keep their covenant promises, the covenant became old.

All the ceremonial practices in the Old Covenant were types that pointed to the New Covenant. The Israelites were not saved based on these services. It was impossible for these to take away sins (Heb. 10:4). Therefore, their salvation depended ONLY on the merits of Christ in the New Covenant!

The concept is simple:

Anyone, throughout any age, that has had the law written in their heart and died in the Lord---their sins God will remember no more.

But this does not physically commence until the Investigative Judgment, beginning with the dead!

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Revelation 11:18)

We can argue what time period in the future this text applies to. But unequivocally, the verse puts off the judgment of the dead INTO THE FUTURE from John's day!

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Since judgment is rendered when a man dies (Heb 9:27), it is after a person dies that decision to blot his name or not from the book of life is rendered.

Hebrews 9: 27 doesn't say that immediately after a person dies, the person is judged.

[Samie]

Hi, Bro. Lysimachus;

Before I address your post #522183, are you humbly throwing in the towel relative to the issue I was discussing with John317 of sins being written in the "books" of heaven and to which you contribute somewhat from time to time in favor of John's position?

This is because I had clearly shown from Scriptures that sins are not written in the "books" of heaven as you and John317 claimed but rather in the sinner's own heart.

In Christ our Savior,

Samie

[skyblue888]

In the typical service the sins of the penitent believers were, through the blood of the sacrificial victim, symbolically transfered to the sanctuary. The cleansing of the sanctuary took place at the end of the year when the High Priest made the final atonement.

Since Christ entered the first apartment of the sanctuary above the sins of the penitent believers have been sent before hand to judgment, meaning that these sins have been recorded in the sanctuary above. These sins are forgiven but not canceled. They are not canceled, blotted out from the sanctuary and placed on the scapegoat, until Jesus our High Priest makes the final atonement.

In 1844 Christ began the investigative judgment of those who have trusted in Him, beginning with Adam, and that investigative judgment will end with the living when the mission of the Gospel is completed at the end of the loud cry as shown in the parable of the Wedding Garment and of the Net. Then Christ will make the final atonement and the sanctuary in Heaven will be cleansed and the sins of God's faithful people will be placed on Satan who is the scapegoat and he will wander in the wilderness (desolated earth) for 1,000 years. At the end of the 1,000 years, at the time of the executive judgment, he will be brought down to the Pit at the hand of those whom he had deceived. They will turn upon him with the fury of demons.

sky

[Samie]

Samie,

[Lysimachus]

The Investigative Judgment, it is claimed, is for cleansing of the sanctuary in heaven. I had already proven from Scriptures sins are not written in the "books" of heaven, so what remains to be cleansed in the sanctuary?

Interesting how you can boldly deceive yourself into thinking you have proved from the Scriptures that sins are not recorded in the "books" of heaven.

I have not seen this "proof" anywhere, and you have yet to show it.

John317 already showed you from Isaiah 65:7 that the iniquities of Israel are "written", "BEFORE HIM"

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12)

What part of this don't you understand?

Can you read English?

What language do you speak?

Do you need someone to translate for you?

The notion that God does not record sins in books of heaven is not only ridiculous, but completely Unbiblical! It doesn't even make sense! These Scriptures are PLAIN, that the "works" (good or bad) are "written IN the books". Have mercy!!!

Even the EVANGELICAL world is on the side of Adventism on this! You are way off in LEFT FIELD my friend!

[Dr. Rich]

But when were the books opened? How could anyone be judged before the appointed time of the end?