The Case For the Investigative Judgment

[Lysimachus]

Yes, of course. WITHOUT QUESTION!! As far as sin is concerned, "it is written before me" is on earth, NOT in heaven. Did Malachi say it is in heaven? No; it's but a figment of your imagination. You again tried and failed to prove your hopeless case that sins are written in the "books" in heaven.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Yes, of course. WITHOUT QUESTION!! As far as sin is concerned, "it is written before me" is on earth, NOT in heaven. Did Malachi say it is in heaven? No; it's but a figment of your imagination. You again tried and failed to prove your hopeless case that sins are written in the "books" in heaven.

Trying to convince yourself that it is not in heaven is not going to save your skin. It only instills the deception further in your mind, and this penetrating truth turns into darkness the more you continue to reject it. John317, myself, BobRyan, RHL, etc. have already unequivocally shown you how EVERYTHING that is "done" is written in the books that are open. So you can squeal, you can hop, you can skip, and you can dance between the raindrops, but you won't be able to change this irrefutable, knife-cutting truth, that strikes to the marrow of your bones.

Originally Posted By: Samie

Again, where in the Bible does it say that sins "written before Him" are in heaven? Where oh where in the Bible, brother? You have NEVER shown where in Scriptures. Why? Because there is NONE. God Himself said sins "written before Him" are in the table of the heart of the sinner and therefore on earth, instead of in heaven as you have time and again miserably tried yet consistently failed to prove.

I provided the answer in Malachi. Scripture with scripture in order to get the "full picture". Jeremiah 17 does not say "it is written in their hearts, but not in heaven's books". It is just stating a fact, "it is written in their hearts". But when Isaiah 65 says that the sins are "written BEFORE Him", we turn to Malachi where it says the "sins are written before ME", and we see that "BOOKS" are involved, and then we get a full picture.

This is how the Spirit works when we study the scriptures. And if you can't see it, then that is too bad for you.

Originally Posted By: Samie

You very well know it's you who failed. The issue is whether sins are written in the "books" in heaven or on earth. Your comparison of driving to the bank without a vehicle is too irrelevant. Use a better comparison next time.

Really? How is it irrelevant? My point is that because a word is missing does not mean it isn't so. Scriptures provide the answers by implication, by the Spirit, and by other Scriptures. This is how we form doctrine, "here a little, there a little, line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept" (Isaiah 28:9,10)....and don't go bringing up that this applies to the drunken priests, because that argument has been refuted and total hogwash.

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

The righteous deeds are also written in the hearts of believers, but they are written on books as well. Likewise, the same goes for the sins of the wicked. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. A plain reading of Isaiah 65:5 implies that there is a book "before him", despite the fact that in Jeremiah 17:1 those same sins are also written in their hearts.

Originally Posted By: Samie

You are losing focus. The issue is whether record of sins is in heaven or on earth. What you need to prove, brother, is that your "books" written with sins are in heaven.

How are they on earth? Can you literally read writings on someone's hearts? Or is it spiritually written on earth? If it's spiritually written on earth in their hearts, does this not mean that there is a literal record in heaven? How can the records exist in the heart if they are not in heaven? Your logic fails, once again, miserably.

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

I see too much peekaboo, ring around the rosy, and theological hopscotch. Your continual dancing between the raindrops simply does not impress me.

Originally Posted By: Samie

No one is trying to impress you. In fact you impress me by losing sight of the real issue so soon. Did you easily tire from failing to prove your contention time and again?

The only thing I tire of is repeating obvious plain scriptures that provide the answers. Apparently to you, however, it is very "complicated".

When you said there are no records of sins in heaven's books, you just went off the road.

In fact, you didn't just go off the road, you rolled over 4 times!

In fact, you didn't just roll over 4 times, you crashed through the windshield and are laying on the side of the road bleeding.

Talk to any Christian, who is non-SDA, and they will agree with you that the record books in heaven record sins that are committed. They will agree with you that the scriptures in question CLEARLY IMPLY THIS CONCEPT.

But, because you Samie KNOW FAR more than these evangelicals, you know that to accept this MAKES our Adventist doctrine of the Investigative Judgment MAKE SENSE! But then you begin to think a little "deeper" (over-analytically), and then you begin to realize that if you take the Evangelical position, you're FRENCH TOAST, because then you would be forced to accept the Adventist arguments!

So in order for you to get OFF THE HOOK of accepting Adventist Doctrine which is so sound, and irrefutable, you must adapt your PERSONAL PRIVATE interpretations so that you can feel that you have successfully offered a "solution" to the whole problem!

And what is this solution?

The outlandish, ridiculous, MONSTROUS and PATHETIC reasoning that SINS that are DONE are NOT RECORDED in Heaven's record books!

What MADNESS!

Your hyperbole is sooooooo funny. Unfortunately for you it also does not make any sense.

[Samie]

I won't waste precious space of this thread just to quote the whole of what mitz3 calls your so funny hyperbole, Lysimachus. Just a sample. Here's my question:

Again, where in the Bible does it say that sins "written before Him" are in heaven? Where oh where in the Bible, brother? You have NEVER shown where in Scriptures. Why? Because there is NONE. God Himself said sins "written before Him" are in the table of the heart of the sinner and therefore on earth, instead of in heaven as you have time and again miserably tried yet consistently failed to prove.

[Guest]

It was God Himself Who said sins are written in the heart of the sinner:

But you still haven't followed through on proving the rest of your statement. Where is the part that says they are not written in the books of heaven.

Of course if it were not in those books, then we could not be judged from those book, and the Bible is very clear that we WILL be judged from those books.

Also, here's another book:

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spoke often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

[Lysimachus]

It is just so heart-wrenching to see how determined they are to mutilate the scriptures, isn't it RLH? And they think that Christ is with them.

[John317]

I remain unconvinced.

The Bible teaches that the majority of people on earth will remain unconvinced of the truth to the very end of time. Even Jesus Himself could convince very few of the truth during His earthly ministry.

As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it. The horse has to be willing to drink. If he is stubborn and refuses to drink, no one can make him. The same applies to people.

[John317]

It's interesting, too, that the Nelson Study Bible notes at Isaiah 65: 6 that "It is written refers to the heavenly book that records sin."

At Rev. 20: 12, the same study Bible says, "Books refers to the record of all works done in this life."

The Nelson Study Bible is not written or published by SDAs but is the work of many conservative Christians from different churches, including Baptist. Most of the contributers were educated at such places as Dallas Theological Seminary and Western Conservative Baptist Seminary.

It's one of the best study Bibles I know of.

Concerning Rev. 20: 12, another excellent study Bible, the ESV Study Bible, says, "Books recording their deeds will be opened (Daniel 7: 10), providing the grounds on which each is judged (Romans 2: 6-7). God keeps an accurate record of every human deed, and will reward and punish with perfect justice."

The General Editor of the ESV Study Bible is Wayne Grudem, a highly respected non-SDA theologian and the author of Systematic Theology.

This evidence shows that many Bible-believing Christians outside of the SDA Church understand the Bible to teach that sins are recorded in books in heaven.

Originally Posted By: miz3

So a "human interpreter" (the Nelson Bible) is now the top authority and all must submit to its interpretation.

This is your big problem, you rely on "human authorities" for you interpretation of Scripture.

The evidence shows that non-SDA Christian scholars also acknowledge that the sins of people are written in books and are considered in the Judgment.

No one is saying that the teaching is true because it's contained in the Nelson Study Bible or in any other Study Bible. The evidence is presented to show that many other Christians besides SDAs believe the Bible teaches that sins are written in books in heaven.

[John317]

You are saying that then that these "intelligent beings" don't know the Truth?

The Bible is clear that neither the unfallen nor the fallen angels of God know ALL the truth. They are also learning.

Consider the fact that Lucifer was able to deceive 1/3 of the intelligent beings in heaven into following him and going against God.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Are also saying that these "intelligent beings" "don't trust God"?

It's not a question of trusting God. The angels and unfallen beings on other planets in the universe do trust God, but God is not merely demanding that they accept His verdict. The books of Daniel and Revelation are full of evidence that the intelligent beings in heaven become convinced by what they see that God is just and right in His judgments.

If God wanted to, He could have simply demanded that the angels accept His commandments, but that is not God's way. He invites them as well as us humans to look at the evidence and decide whether He is right or whether Satan's ways are right. That's really the reason for the Bible: it is a written account of how God deals with sin and sinners, and God invites all humanity to examine the evidence. The Bible teaches that even the angels are learning from the evidence.

Rev. 15:3-4

And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and amazing are your deeds,

O Lord God the Almighty!

Just and true are your ways,

O King of the nations!

[4] Who will not fear, O Lord,

and glorify your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come

and worship you,

for your righteous acts have been revealed."

Rev. 16:5-7

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say,

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,

for you brought these judgments.

[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink.

It is what they deserve!"

[7] And I heard the altar saying,

"Yes, Lord God the Almighty,

true and just are your judgments!"

[Lysimachus]

The evidence shows that non-SDA Christian scholars also acknowledge that the sins of people are written in books and are considered in the Judgment.

No one is saying that the teaching is true because it's contained in the Nelson Study Bible or in any other Study Bible. The evidence is presented to show that many other Christians besides SDAs believe the Bible teaches that sins are written in books in heaven.

Well said. And it seems to me that Miz3 should have understood that this was your intent.

[John317]

...

The righteous deeds are also written in the hearts of believers, but they are written on books as well. Likewise, the same goes for the sins of the wicked. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. A plain reading of Isaiah 65:5 implies that there is a book "before him", despite the fact that in Jeremiah 17:1 those same sins are also written in their hearts.

Originally Posted By: Samie

You are losing focus. The issue is whether record of sins is in heaven or on earth. What you need to prove, brother, is that your "books" written with sins are in heaven.

You've said that Rev. 20: 12 doesn't teach that the sins of people have been written in "books." Let's consider this verse and verse 13 again, as they've been translated by many translations:

The Voice New Testament: [12] "... And the dead were judged according to what had been recorded in the first books; these were the records of everything they had done. [13]... And all were judged according to their works."

New English Bible: [12] "... From what was written in these books the dead were judged upon the record of their deeds. [13]... they were judged, each man on the record of his deeds."

New International Readers Version: [12]"... The dead were judged by what they had done. The things they had done were written in the books. [13]... Each of the dead was judged by what he had done."

New International Version: [12]"... The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [13]... and each person was judged according to what he had done."

Modern Language Bible: [12] "... and the dead were judged according to their conduct from the entries in the scrolls. [13]... and each person was judged according to his works."

Amplified Bible: [12] "... And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books. [13]... and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works]."

The Unvarnished New Testament (trans. Andy Gaus): [12]"... And the dead were judged according to their deeds, using what was written in the books about them. [13]... and they were judged, each by their deeds."

Today's English Version (The Good News Bible): [12]"... The dead were judged according to what they had done, as was written in the books. [13]... And all were judged according to what they had done."

Phillips Modern English: [12]"... And the dead were judged by what was written in the books concerning what they had done. [13]... And men were judged, each according to what they had done."

Contemporary English Version: [12]"... The dead were judged by what those books said they had done. [13]...Then everyone was judged by what they had done."

New Century Version: [12]"... There were other books opened. The dead were judged by what they had done, which was written in the books. [13]...Each person was judged by what he had done."

Jerusalem Bible: "... and other books opened which were the record of what they had done in their lives, by which the dead were judged... [13]... and every one was judged according to the way in which he had lived."

New Jerusalem Bible: [12] "... and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, as their deeds deserved... [13]... and every one was judged as his deeds deserved."

The Bible In Basic English: [12]... and the dead were judged by the things which were in the books, even by their works... [13]... and they were judged every man by his works."

God's New Covenant (trans. Heinz W. Cassirer): [12] "The dead were judged on what was recorded in these books, judged in accordance with the deeds they had done." ... [13] And each person was judged in accordance with the deeds he had done."

Goodspeed: [12]"...And the dead were judged by what was written in the books about what they had done... [13] ... and they were all judged by what they had done."

NOTE: The evidence of these verses alone prove that the good and bad deeds of the dead are written in books in heaven, and that what is written therein is the basis of their judgment.

This is precisely in keeping with the testimony of Ecc. 12: 13, 14--

Eccles. 12:13-14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Notice it doesn't say that God will bring into judgment only the deeds of those who are lost.

Romans 2:11

God shows no partiality.

Deut. 10:17

For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.

God also judges the deeds of the people in the churches:

Rev. 2:23

... And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.

Rev. 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

How can God give to the churches as each person's works deserve if God does not remember what each person has done?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I remain unconvinced.

The Bible teaches that the majority of people on earth will remain unconvinced of the truth to the very end of time. Even Jesus Himself could convince very few of the truth during His earthly ministry.

As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it. The horse has to be willing to drink. If he is stubborn and refuses to drink, no one can make him. The same applies to people.

I think you have found yourself.

I have no joy in the FACT that you do not accept what the Bible and the Bible only states but that you believe so easily in a doctrine promulgated by human imagination.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

It's interesting, too, that the Nelson Study Bible notes at Isaiah 65: 6 that "It is written refers to the heavenly book that records sin."

At Rev. 20: 12, the same study Bible says, "Books refers to the record of all works done in this life."

The Nelson Study Bible is not written or published by SDAs but is the work of many conservative Christians from different churches, including Baptist. Most of the contributers were educated at such places as Dallas Theological Seminary and Western Conservative Baptist Seminary.

It's one of the best study Bibles I know of.

Concerning Rev. 20: 12, another excellent study Bible, the ESV Study Bible, says, "Books recording their deeds will be opened (Daniel 7: 10), providing the grounds on which each is judged (Romans 2: 6-7). God keeps an accurate record of every human deed, and will reward and punish with perfect justice."

The General Editor of the ESV Study Bible is Wayne Grudem, a highly respected non-SDA theologian and the author of Systematic Theology.

This evidence shows that many Bible-believing Christians outside of the SDA Church understand the Bible to teach that sins are recorded in books in heaven.

Originally Posted By: miz3

So a "human interpreter" (the Nelson Bible) is now the top authority and all must submit to its interpretation.

This is your big problem, you rely on "human authorities" for you interpretation of Scripture.

The evidence shows that non-SDA Christian scholars also acknowledge that the sins of people are written in books and are considered in the Judgment.

No one is saying that the teaching is true because it's contained in the Nelson Study Bible or in any other Study Bible. The evidence is presented to show that many other Christians besides SDAs believe the Bible teaches that sins are written in books in heaven.

Still don't make it right.

Why do believe human expositors over the clear and plain Word of God?

[phkrause]

If that's not obvious John, than I don't know what else is. Its so plain and simple.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

It was God Himself Who said sins are written in the heart of the sinner:

But you still haven't followed through on proving the rest of your statement. Where is the part that says they are not written in the books of heaven.

[miz3]

The Bible is clear that neither the unfallen nor the fallen angels of God know ALL the truth. They are also learning.

Consider the fact that Lucifer was able to deceive 1/3 of the intelligent beings in heaven into following him and going against God.

It's not a question of trusting God. The angels and unfallen beings on other planets in the universe do trust God, but God is not merely demanding that they accept His verdict. The books of Daniel and Revelation are full of evidence that the intelligent beings in heaven become convinced by what they see that God is just and right in His judgments.

If God wanted to, He could have simply demanded that the angels accept His commandments, but that is not God's way. He invites them as well as us humans to look at the evidence and decide whether He is right or whether Satan's ways are right. That's really the reason for the Bible: it is a written account of how God deals with sin and sinners, and God invites all humanity to examine the evidence. The Bible teaches that even the angels are learning from the evidence.

Please give Book, Chapter, and Verse for the following:

1. Where the angels and the "unfallen beings elsewhere" want to learn about who is saved and not saved and why these people are saved and/or not saved?

2. Where and when we earthly humans get to see the "evidence" during the Investigative Judgment?

3. Where satan outlines his alternate plan for human happiness?

[John317]

The evidence shows that non-SDA Christian scholars also acknowledge that the sins of people are written in books and are considered in the Judgment.

No one is saying that the teaching is true because it's contained in the Nelson Study Bible or in any other Study Bible. The evidence is presented to show that many other Christians besides SDAs believe the Bible teaches that sins are written in books in heaven.

Originally Posted By: miz3

Still don't make it right.

Why do believe human expositors over the clear and plain Word of God?

I don't believe human expositors over the clear Word of God. However, I do consider human expositors when they agree with the clear Word of God. I also consider the evidence people give for their beliefs.

You, on the other hand, appear to be saying that we should not pay any attention to what other Christians and other students of the Bible say or think.

If that's true, do you want us to ignore what you say?

It is you who are teaching contrary to the clear word of God. There is nothing more clear than that the Bible teaches people's sins are recorded in books in heaven.

Below is just some of the evidence:

New English Bible: [12] "... From what was written in these books the dead were judged upon the record of their deeds. [13]... they were judged, each man on the record of his deeds."

New International Readers Version: [12]"... The dead were judged by what they had done. The things they had done were written in the books. [13]... Each of the dead was judged by what he had done."

New International Version: [12]"... The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [13]... and each person was judged according to what he had done."

Modern Language Bible: [12] "... and the dead were judged according to their conduct from the entries in the scrolls. [13]... and each person was judged according to his works."

[phkrause]

If that's true, do you want us to ignore what you say?

Good point John

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

...

The righteous deeds are also written in the hearts of believers, but they are written on books as well. Likewise, the same goes for the sins of the wicked. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. A plain reading of Isaiah 65:5 implies that there is a book "before him", despite the fact that in Jeremiah 17:1 those same sins are also written in their hearts.

Originally Posted By: Samie

You are losing focus. The issue is whether record of sins is in heaven or on earth. What you need to prove, brother, is that your "books" written with sins are in heaven.

You've said that Rev. 20: 12 doesn't teach that the sins of people have been written in "books."

You seemed to have cut my statement on purpose, John? Why? Going down that low just to prove your unbiblical contention? See my posts #522035 & #522066. I was pointing out the Bible does not teach that sins are written in the books in heaven but you deliberately left out "in heaven" from your quote. Aren't you being dishonest, brother?

[miz3]

I don't believe human logic and/or human interpreters and/or human interpretations.

I believe the Word of God.

However, your words and behavior show and demonstrate that you believe human expositors, Ellen White, etc. etc. over the very plain and clear Word of God.

You have also shown and demonstrated that you cannot show the Investigative Judgment doctrine is in the Bible and the Bible only.

[John317]

....To be judged from the books in heaven is shown in detail in Rev 20:15. If one's name is not in the book of life, he is thrown into the lake of fire. Simple. Clear.

Not only is there a book of life, which lists the name of those who are saved, but there are also books containing the deeds that people have done. They are judged according to what is contained in those books about their lives:

New English Bible: [12] "... From what was written in these books the dead were judged upon the record of their deeds. [13]... they were judged, each man on the record of his deeds."

New International Readers Version: [12]"... The dead were judged by what they had done. The things they had done were written in the books. [13]... Each of the dead was judged by what he had done."

New International Version: [12]"... The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [13]... and each person was judged according to what he had done."

Modern Language Bible: [12] "... and the dead were judged according to their conduct from the entries in the scrolls. [13]... and each person was judged according to his works."

These books-- the book of Life and the books that record men's deeds-- "bore independent witness to the fact of men being or not being among the saved: the one by inference from the works recorded: the other by inscription or non-inscription of the name in the list. So the 'books' would be as it were the vouchers for the book of life." (Henri Alford, An Exegetical and Critical Commentary, on Rev. 20: 12, 13.)

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

If that's true, do you want us to ignore what you say?

Good point John

I never ever said to believe me and/or my words.

I have however said that you should always believe the Word of God and what it actually says.

Instead you don't believe that Word God but would rather believe human expositors and/or Ellen White above the Word of God.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

...

The righteous deeds are also written in the hearts of believers, but they are written on books as well. Likewise, the same goes for the sins of the wicked. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. A plain reading of Isaiah 65:5 implies that there is a book "before him", despite the fact that in Jeremiah 17:1 those same sins are also written in their hearts.

Originally Posted By: Samie

You are losing focus. The issue is whether record of sins is in heaven or on earth. What you need to prove, brother, is that your "books" written with sins are in heaven.

You've said that Rev. 20: 12 doesn't teach that the sins of people have been written in "books."

[John317]

This is the nth time I have repeated myself over and over and over again that I agree there are books in heaven because the Bible says so.

What I cannot agree with you is your insistence that sins are written in those books because you have NEVER EVER proven it from Scriptures. Instead, the Bible explicitly states what are written in heaven are names, not sins, brother.

What are in the books in heaven?

You are right that names are written in some of the books-- for instance, in the book of Life.

What is written in the other books spoken of in Rev. 20: 12?

Consider this:

New English Bible: Rev. 20: [12] "... From what was written in these books the dead were judged upon the record of their deeds. [13]... they were judged, each man on the record of his deeds."

New International Readers Version: [12]"... The dead were judged by what they had done. The things they had done were written in the books. [13]... Each of the dead was judged by what he had done."

New International Version: [12]"... The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [13]... and each person was judged according to what he had done."

[John317]

If that's true, do you want us to ignore what you say?

Originally Posted By: pk

Good point John

Originally Posted By: miz3

I never ever said to believe me and/or my words.

I didn't say anything about "believing" you. I am talking about ignoring you.

You want us to ignore what other people think, right? So would it be all right with you if we treat your words and thoughts the same as you want us to treat others? That's the question.

[Lysimachus]

You seemed to have cut my statement on purpose, John? Why? Going down that low just to prove your unbiblical contention? See my posts #522035 & #522066. I was pointing out the Bible does not teach that sins are written in the books in heaven but you deliberately left out "in heaven" from your quote. Aren't you being dishonest, brother?

Your strenuous qualifcations continue to get more and more painful.

So you're saying God stretches his arm...waaay down, and writes them in books on earth? Where are these books?

If these books are not in heaven, where are they? Puulleeezze. Your gnarled mind has lost the ability to see things in their simplicity.