Unclean meats

[norfoith]

I realise that many Adventists are vegetarian, however for those who choose to eat meat for whatever reason are required to observe the laws regarding what is acceptable (as described primarily in Leviticus 11, but also in other places).

My questions are:

1. Why are the laws regarding which meats are acceptable observed, but other dietary laws such as not combining meat and cheese, are not?

2. Why are only dietary laws observed, and the rest of the laws ignored?

(Some might think these are the same question, but they're really not. I'd like to know the answer to both, if possible.)

[phkrause]

I realise that many Adventists are vegetarian, however for those who choose to eat meat for whatever reason are required to observe the laws regarding what is acceptable (as described primarily in Leviticus 11, but also in other places).

My questions are:

1. Why are the laws regarding which meats are acceptable observed, but other dietary laws such as not combining meat and cheese, are not?

2. Why are only dietary laws observed, and the rest of the laws ignored?

(Some might think these are the same question, but they're really not. I'd like to know the answer to both, if possible.)

Not sure what your asking in question #2, could you elaborate a little.

Could you show from the Bible where it says to separate meat and dairy products? Thanks

[ClubV12]

I understand this delima, to some degree.

A couple of thoughts from the counsel of Sister White comes to mind. One is: "Cheese is wholly unfit for food". In that regard, it doesn't matter WHAT you eat it with, it would be best to leave it out altogether.

Another bit of counsel I recall is something like: "There is MUCH in the Old Testament that it would be wise for us to follow." In other words, the question this thread asks is indeed valid, WHY, don't we follow MORE of the Old Testament guidelines, even "laws"? Where DO we draw the line and why?

I think for the same reason the early Adventists did not keep the Sabbath right away. And when they DID start keeping the Sabbath it was some FIVE years later before they received the light on when to begin and end the Sabbath properly. With MUCH of our doctrine, it was not all given at once, but over a period of time. It was not provided by any given vision or direct revelation. It was secured through hard work, intense bible study, over years, over much counsel, with direction provided by divine light when neccessary. But that light NEVER replaced good old fashioned bible study as the PRIMARY source of understanding. The SOP verified interpretation, as it was required from time to time.

Sister White was in agony when she realized that for five years the Adventists had been incorrectly keeping the Sabbath! The angel reassured her, there is no condemnation under the law for those who do not have the light. But once the light is given, they must move forward and "keep the law".

So the counsel is this: There is much in the Old Testament that we would do well to observe! What DOES that mean? Some see the feast days as a requirement. People see different things in regards to that counsel. To those that are convicted by the Holy Spirit, they NEED to come to higher ground. They NEED to act on that light. For those who do not see it, there is no condemnation under the law. Let every man be convinced in his heart as to his duty before God.

It IS a good question: Why? What? Should we be observing, thinking about, considering, from the Old Testament as applicable today? I think it's safe to say most folks are having enough trouble living up to the light we HAVE been given already! Lets not overload anyone and blow a fuse. This is an individual work and a worthy endeavor.

[Woody]

I realise that many Adventists are vegetarian, however for those who choose to eat meat for whatever reason are required to observe the laws regarding what is acceptable (as described primarily in Leviticus 11, but also in other places).

My questions are:

1. Why are the laws regarding which meats are acceptable observed, but other dietary laws such as not combining meat and cheese, are not?

2. Why are only dietary laws observed, and the rest of the laws ignored?

(Some might think these are the same question, but they're really not. I'd like to know the answer to both, if possible.)

If you are just coming back to the Lord - I would pay little mind to such questions. They tend to cause one to major in minors.

[cheddar]

Has anyone ever tried chocolate covered bacon?

It's probably the most delicious combination of food ever created by sinful man.

I highly recommend it!

And Ellen White was wrong about cheese.

There are billions of people who happily eat their cheese every single day with no ill effect - Can you imagine pizza without cheese?

She should have been kicked out for that one statement alone.

[ClubV12]

Actually, Cheddar is the one who is wrong on this statement, Ellen White got it right. Cheese is wholly unfit for food. People eat lots of things that hardly qualify as food. Hmmmm, you don't suppose, there is a connection to diet and obesity? Heart disease? And many other medical ill's?

Ellen White said there was, my Doctor agree's. Eat cheese if you like, eat raw rats for all I care, eat whatever you like, but that doesn't mean everything you eat is good for food. Some folks eat paper,,,, :)

[cheddar]

Don't eat rat and don't eat paper but I loves me my cheese.

Older and sedentary people should probably not eat alot of meat and cheese because they will get fat - I don't dispute that.

But younger people and people who work out or work hard jobs like myself are going burn off pretty much anything they eat so meat and dairy are not a problem.

[Woody]

For full disclosure - I eat Cheddar.

[Dr. Rich]

Norforith, since you are new here let me tell you that your questions will probably be answered by people with many different opinions. I am one of those who follow the words of Jesus only, but as a SDA for over 66 years, I have also found that what people do and what they say to do are two different things by the most part.

Why we say not to eat pork, yet eating cheese with beef, is nonsense to me. Clearly, God gave Noah everything to eat as long as he didn't eat of the blood, so a choked chicken is out of the question while a chicken processed by taking the head of first and letting it drain of it's blood is ok. But God did give health and living regulations through Moses while Israel was camping so to speak, in the wilderness. Those codes or statutes are (Lev. 10:11) different than the Covenant/Ten Commandments where we get the common law from and many places in the OT and NT note the difference between the two. The covenant has not been done away with, but when Jesus said that it is not what you put into your mouth (eat or drink) that makes one unclean, but what comes out of the mouth, at that point it set the record straight that when Israel failed to be a nation any longer, it's statutes, regulations and codes ceased to be--as would happen to any nation. The dream Peter allegedly had verified this.

I have been around many SDA churches in my life time and have seen people eat just about everything, including at potlucks. Alaska wilderness Adventists have to do what they have to do I guess.

But the reason why Adventists do what they do with everything, is usually how they were brought up. They never thought about researching why--they just followed what their parents did.

As for eating the meat with the milk of the animal, that was in a statute just as not cutting ones hair or beard. But do Adventist talk about those? NO! If they used a fly swater to kill a fly, they would be unclean and if the fly landed on a nice dish or plate, it had to be broken.

But, you will also see that becoming unclean was not the same thing as a violation of the covenant, the latter being a sin. Shoot, a women with her monthly flow would be sinning every month if that was the case!

So people, lets get real. Do unto others as you would want them to do to you--leave them alone!

[Tom Wetmore]

Could you show from the Bible where it says to separate meat and dairy products? Thanks

It is my understanding that this kosher rule comes from the directive "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk." It is found in Exodus 23:19, and repeated in Exodus 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.

[Haldog]

I fail to find directive that the Church, the body of Christ, is to follow ANY of the Old Covenant laws. Paul is very clear that the Church is not required to do so.

[Stan]

To me the 'Law' not to eat scavengers, snakes, rats, mice, slugs (and the sea cousins shrimp), pigs etc only makes sense.

[norfoith]

Thank you all for the answers. Perhaps I should have been more specific in my original question. I don't eat unclean meats at all. I'm not vegetarian, but I eat minimal meat - no red meat at all, mostly cold water fish (the dietary reasons behind that are probably for a different topic) and occasionally poultry (usually when no other alternatives exist - other than to go hungry ).

I guess some of you think I'm 'majoring in minors' but what I was actually trying to determine is current Adventist attitudes to such things, not having been around for a while. The church I grew up in treated eating a pepperoni pizza as one of the worst things you could do...while I agree there's good health reasons for not doing so, I don't see it as the kind of thing that should have you facing a church disciplinary committee. That is all.

[Woody]

Quote:

The church I grew up in treated eating a pepperoni pizza as one of the worst things you could do...while I agree there's good health reasons for not doing so, I don't see it as the kind of thing that should have you facing a church disciplinary committee. That is all.

Thanks for your entire post norfoith. That helps us know where you are coming from.

Regarding the above -

I agree with you that it should not be a thing one should face discipline for. But at the same time - I agree with Stan that pig would be the last thing on earth that I would want to eat - even if it was not a Biblical directive. However since it is a Biblical directive not to eat - I find it to be an easy choice. What I would call a "no-brainer".

[FLO]

I fail to find directive that the Church, the body of Christ, is to follow ANY of the Old Covenant laws. Paul is very clear that the Church is not required to do so.

I don't know what Paul you're talking about. Paul (or anyone else for that matter) has no authority to do away with any of God's laws. Even God can't do away with His own laws. If He was able to do so, then He wouldn't have had to send Jesus to come die for us. He would have just had to modify His law a bit so He could get us off the hook. That was not the case. God does not change.

The Deuteronomy 13 Test is an interesting test you can use to see if someone's doctrine is of God or not. Try using it on this Paul character that you say is "very clear" that the church is not required to keep any Old Testament Laws. The Paul you read about in the new Testament is not at all like that, kept the Old Testament Laws. Don't believe me, watch this informative video:

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/119/The_Deuteronomy_13_Test/index.html

I hope it helps.

[FLO]

Thank you all for the answers. Perhaps I should have been more specific in my original question. I don't eat unclean meats at all. I'm not vegetarian, but I eat minimal meat - no red meat at all, mostly cold water fish (the dietary reasons behind that are probably for a different topic) and occasionally poultry (usually when no other alternatives exist - other than to go hungry ).

I guess some of you think I'm 'majoring in minors' but what I was actually trying to determine is current Adventist attitudes to such things, not having been around for a while. The church I grew up in treated eating a pepperoni pizza as one of the worst things you could do...while I agree there's good health reasons for not doing so, I don't see it as the kind of thing that should have you facing a church disciplinary committee. That is all.

Just like any other church. The SDA church is full of traditions. It's good that we follow what the Bible says and not eat pork. That's a good thing. I agree with you that we fail to adhere to many other commands such as to not eat blood. This is not right. We (SDA's) don't have the right to pick and choose which commands we want to keep and which ones we don't. That's not our prerogative. You have to learn to separate "SDA teachings" and "Bible teachings". You'd be surprised to find that the two are not always the same.

Anyhoo... this video might be helpful:

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/119/Are_All_Things_Now_Considered_Food/index.html

Good Luck with your search! :-)

[Lysimachus]

Anyhoo... this video might be helpful:

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/119/Are_All_Things_Now_Considered_Food/index.html

Good Luck with your search! :-)

That is an EXCELLENT VIDEO! Wow, it's about time someone makes a video breaking down these verses.

Thanks for sharing!

[Dr. Rich]

Flo, Deut. 13 is right on point about those who's letters got placed into the NT but never knew Jesus and were not even taught by those who did know Jesus personally! John identified them in 1Jn. 2:19 which can be compared to Deut. 13:12-13. And please notice that Deut. 13 says nothing about statues, codes or regulations, but only the Commandments-it being the ten commandments?

I know (for myself) that what you eat has nothing to do with anything spiritually, and yes it may or may not be healthy for me or not, but as a life long SDA, I too have that long held belief(s) about unclean foods and given the choice, I too stay away from them.

But I also understand what Cheddar said, as I have tried the two together and it has to be sinful as it is totally delicious! :)

[Dr. Rich]

And another thing flo, those sites you gave from Yah Tube: 119 Ministries are interesting, but full of disinformation and misinformation, here is just one reason:

The guy speaking said that the "law" that Paul wrote and talked about was not important to keep was the "Talmud", it being a 'oral' law and not one that was written. This is totally incorrect as found and proved in Rom. 7:4-8. Notice that coveting was part of this "law" that Paul talked about. Also notice that coveting was NOT part of the "Talmud", but in fact was and is one of the Ten Commandments-that is and will be shown to be the real TEST, or the measuring bar, at judgment time as found in Rev. 11--all of it!

The real test is found in John 14:26 and 17:17-22. The testimony (words) of Jesus ONLY given to us by ONLY His eyewitnesses. All else is hearsay. If anything said by anyone dead or alive does not agree, then throw it out!

[Lysimachus]

Dr. Rich, how many times do we have to repeat to you that we have no interest whatsoever in discussing Biblical doctrine with you so long as you reject portions of the Bible, and Paul's writings?

You are deceived concerning Paul's writings. It is a doctrine of DEVILS. You think you know your stuff, but it is a bunch of quagmire, and private theological lore. A death net of destruction.

So you really think you're going to take the gospel to the whole world, and somehow convince the whole Christian world that Paul was deceived?

God REALLY shot Himself in the foot I see, because such a task is IMPOSSIBLE! If God let His Bible become what it is, full of books of lies, than God has made it impossible for people to learn the truth in the Bible. God must have been REALLY stupid, weak, and fragile to NOT be able to keep His Bible pure from corrupt influences. He was able to WEED out the Apocrypha and the Pseudepigrapha writings, but He wasn't able to weed out Paul's "heresies". Woowww.. I mean WOOOOOoowwww.

You need to give up your prideful opinion, because you are wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

WRRROONNG!!!!

[Dr. Rich]

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, TEACHING them to OBSERVE ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU..." Matthew 28:19-20

And no, I am not sorry at all for teaching people to observe all that Jesus commanded His disdiples to do! Jesus did not send His disciples out to go to the Jews, but to everyone! There was NEVER any need for someone to say he was an apostle because he called himself an apostle to the Gentiles!

As one who is a bondservant for Jesus Christ and therefore a disciple of His too, I am only following EXACTLY what Jesus commanded 'us' to do. Period! If you don't like it, as I am sure those who are told by Jesus to depart because He never knew them will also feel, then it is your problem, not mine.

[phkrause]

It is my understanding that this kosher rule comes from the directive "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk." It is found in Exodus 23:19, and repeated in Exodus 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.

Thanks for that Tom, I had forgotten that.

[FLO]

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, TEACHING them to OBSERVE ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU..." Matthew 28:19-20

And no, I am not sorry at all for teaching people to observe all that Jesus commanded His disdiples to do! Jesus did not send His disciples out to go to the Jews, but to everyone! There was NEVER any need for someone to say he was an apostle because he called himself an apostle to the Gentiles!

As one who is a bondservant for Jesus Christ and therefore a disciple of His too, I am only following EXACTLY what Jesus commanded 'us' to do. Period! If you don't like it, as I am sure those who are told by Jesus to depart because He never knew them will also feel, then it is your problem, not mine.

Hey Dr. Rich,

I agree with you that we need to make disciples of all nations Jews and Gentiles. And that we should teach all the commandments that Jesus taught.

However, you have to keep in mind that Jesus never taught against the Torah or any Old Testament laws. Jesus would not be sinless if He did not obey the Torah 100%. Jesus upheld the Torah and never told anyone not to keep it either. The only laws that Jesus told people not to keep were the laws that the Jews have added to the Torah (i.e. the laws in the Talmud). For example, the story about eating without ceremonially washed hands. Jesus told the Pharisees off because they are putting their traditions above Gods law. That's the beef Jesus had with the Pharisees on a regular basis. They were keeping all these rules that they made up themselves (that God never commanded) yet they didn't even keep the instructions that God did give them. Paul is doing the same thing in the new Testament.

Did God make a mistake by giving Israel all the rules in the Old Testament and He's making it up to us by not requiring us to keep those rules anymore? What kind of inconsistent God is that? That's not the "God does not change" God that the bible teaches us about.

Because the new testament happens in a different culture than ours, it's hard for us to understand what exactly Paul was addressing in his letters. If you study the structure of jewish law (the Talmud) and you realize that it is NOT in harmony with the old testament, youll see that that's what Paul is addressing and criticizing. Paul is not criticizing Gods Law which Psalms calls Perfect!

Just something to think about...

[phkrause]

Absolutely great points FLO

[Dr. Rich]

FLO, good point. However, did you notice there was a difference between the commandments and statutes for Israel? If not, please check it out. Commandments from God are not legislative in nature, while statues (just like today) are always legislative--as they can change at the whim of the ones who establish the law.

Jesus most surly and directly said that NOTHING eaten or drunk (clean or unclean or strong drink included here) can defile anyone or make them unclean--as ONLY what comes out of the mouth makes them unclean. I don't think Jesus could make this issue more clear.

You are correct about washing or not washing, but that didn't matter either as Jesus was talking about the spiritual issue, not the health issue.

Take for insance many of the shellfish such as crab, clams and shrimp as all of them have been found to be very high in glycosamine (sp) something needed by everyone. Ask just about any health professional and they will tell you the benefits of eating shrimp (cooked and cleaned properly).

No, I myself seldom eat what we were brougt to believe was unclean because it was just built into me not to. But I have no problem with others eating what they want.