Unclean meats

[FLO]

Jesus most surly and directly said that NOTHING eaten or drunk (clean or unclean or strong drink included here) can defile anyone or make them unclean--as ONLY what comes out of the mouth makes them unclean. I don't think Jesus could make this issue more clear.

Surely, Jesus is not telling people to disregard the Torah commands to refrain from eating unclean foods. If He was doing so, He would be a false prophet, and a sinner. Not exactly someone that should be our role model.

Like you said, Jesus is NOT talking about clean/unclean foods in this case. He's just busting the Pharisees on their ridiculous rules/laws (regarding eating with unwashed hands). With that statement, Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the garbage that comes out of their mouths is what they should be worried about and not policing people to see if they ceremonially wash their hands before they eat or not. Jesus is definitely NOT making a "new" rule or command (contrary to the Torah no less) declaring all things that can go into your mouth are now officially clean from that day forward.

"You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you." - Deut 4:2

No one is to add anything to or remove anything from God's commands. Nope, not even Jesus.

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which [is] in the water, they [are] an abomination to you. They shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh" - Lev. 11:10-11

That's a pretty clear command from God in the Old Testament. There's no way Jesus is veto-ing that with His "new" command about whatever you put into your mouth is cool. Jesus was definitely NOT replacing or doing away with God's command in Leviticus 11. Jesus does not have the right to change God's commands.

"Anyone who doesn't love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me." John 14:24

Jesus didn't come to usher in new commands of His own. He came to do His Father's will. His Father's will can be found in the Torah, those are His words (His instructions for us). And that's what Jesus came to teach and uphold.

[Dr. Rich]

Flo, do see the difference between the Covenant (Ten Commandments) verses the Sundry laws such as for health and sexual codes? If not, then why the difference between the commandments and statutes?

If Jesus didn't mean what he said about NOTHING (everything) that one eats does not make them unclean, then why did God give Peter the vision with the sheet? And what would be the difference between eating with unclean hands verses eating unclean meat? Huh? How do you support your 'tit for tat' opinion here?

Clearly Jesus ate foods fixed for Him by Gentiles. Are you saying that everything the Gentiles prepared was Kosher?

God considered Noah righteous didn't He? Then when God said EVERYTHING (Gen. 9:3) moving that is alive shall be food for you (Noah), do you suppose God sinned? Ha Ha! NOOOOOO!. Neither did Jesus by saying the same thing! Come on folks, lets wake up! Let's stop this banter with others about them 'sinning' if they eat unclean food! It's just what it is and that is that! (My opinion)

[phkrause]

Excellent post FLO

[FLO]

If Jesus didn't mean what he said about NOTHING (everything) that one eats does not make them unclean, then why did God give Peter the vision with the sheet? And what would be the difference between eating with unclean hands verses eating unclean meat? Huh? How do you support your 'tit for tat' opinion here?

Great question Dr. Rich! Once again, this has nothing to do with clean or unclean foods. It has all to do with man-made rules that the Jews were adhering to (Thanks to the Pharisees and the man-made religious system that they were controlling).

Even Peter was observing these man-made rules and God was just setting the record straight. In Judaism, there's a law that prevented a Jew from associating with a Gentile. This is because the Jews looked at the Gentiles as unclean people. We've all heard about this rule and for some reason we think that this rule was given to the Jews by God. This law is not found anywhere in the Torah or Old testament scriptures. This law is from the Talmud, and was enforced by the Jewish religious system at the time.

I'm sure you know the story well. Cornelius (a Godly Gentile) wanted to learn more about God and Peter was the man to do the job. However, since Peter still adhered to man-made Jewish law, God had to show him the vision with sheet with unclean animals. This vision did NOT mean that Peter was now free to eat anything he wanted to (this would violate God's own commands in the Torah), what it did mean was that Peter was free to associate with Gentiles (this would violate Talmud [Pharisee's] laws, but not Torah [God's] laws).

God is consistent. God would never give us a rule and then change His mind and tell us to violate the rules that He gave us. However, God has no problem telling us to violate man-made religious rules that stand in the way of His plans. This was the case here with Peter. To prove that this, in fact, was the case; listen to what Peter says in Acts 10 once he understood the purpose of the vision.

"You are well aware that it is against our law [Jewish law] for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean." - Acts 10:28

There you have it! Peter understood the vision. He went and met with Cornelius and the rest is History! After seeing the vision, Peter definitely did not go out and celebrate his new dietary freedom by eating some lobster or a ham sandwich.

This is consistent with the rest of the Scriptures. God changing His mind on several rules that He Himself originally gave us is a HUGE contradiction. That tells us that our God is inconsistent and doesn't know how to make up His mind. That's not the God I serve. The God I serve is consistent and does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

I hope that makes sense.

[FLO]

Clearly Jesus ate foods fixed for Him by Gentiles. Are you saying that everything the Gentiles prepared was Kosher?

There's no rule in the Bible that tells us not to eat anything prepared by Gentiles. Once again, this is a man-made rule by the Jewish religious system and Jesus had no problem breaking those rules. Jesus definitely did not break any rules found in the Torah.

Once again, there's a difference between God's law (Torah) in the Old Testament and Jewish law (Talmud). Jesus went out of his way to break Jewish Law (Talmud). When Jesus healed the blind man on the Sabbath, He spit on the ground and then worked it into the dirt before putting it on the blind man's eyes. Why did He do that? Couldn't Jesus heal without dirt? Of course He could, but He did that on purpose. Why? Because there's a Jewish Law (in the Talmud) that says you are forbidden to spit on the ground on the Sabbath because it "works the soil" and therefore it is work. That's why the Pharisees were so furious because Jesus was breaking all their man-made laws and He was showing others that they don't need to adhere to man-made religious laws because they are just a burden. God's Law (the Torah) is true freedom and that's what Jesus followed and taught.

So to answer your question, Jesus followed the Kosher rules that are found in the Torah. He did not follow Kosher laws set forth by any Pharisee or Rabbinical counsel or the Talmud.

[FLO]

God considered Noah righteous didn't He? Then when God said EVERYTHING (Gen. 9:3) moving that is alive shall be food for you (Noah), do you suppose God sinned? Ha Ha! NOOOOOO!. Neither did Jesus by saying the same thing! Come on folks, lets wake up! Let's stop this banter with others about them 'sinning' if they eat unclean food! It's just what it is and that is that! (My opinion)

Yes! God did consider Noah righteous! And although that verse seems to say eat everything that moves. We have to be smart about this. Let me give you an example....

If you tell your kids or a guest to your house "feel free to eat anything in the fridge". We all know that this means all edible food in the fridge. Of course the fridge contains non-edible items, such as light bulbs, plastic panels, metal trays, etc... that are not meant to be eaten. Obviously, you did not mean for them to also eat these things. There's an assumption there that they will only eat things that are actually edible and will not harm them. As normal human beings we make these assumptions all the time, don't even think about them and it works out perfectly fine. No one ever eats the light bulbs in the fridge. (Ok. There might be one or two exceptions. lol...)

Same thing applies with Noah. Noah knew God and clearly God talked to him and showed him how to build the ark. Noah also knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. Because Noah needed to know which animals to bring 7s of into the ark and which ones to bring only 2s of into the ark.

"The LORD then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate" - Genesis 7:1-2 NIV

If Noah knew about clean and unclean animals to bring them into the ark, then I'm pretty sure he was able to figure that out when it came to eating them. Think about it, if there's only one pair (male + female) of an unclean animal, if they decided to eat one once they got off the ark, then there wouldn't be enough left of that animal to reproduce itself. However, for the clean animals, there was enough to reproduce and sacrifice and eat all at the same. God really knows what He's doing, doesn't He?

God never gave permission to Noah to eat everything that moves (which would also include humans for that matter... can you say cannibalism?) God made that statement to Noah, and God knew that Noah knew exactly what He meant by it. And just in case somewhere down the line (far removed from Noah), someone came around and wondered exactly what animals they are allowed to eat? God told Moses to write it in the Torah. Now we don't need to guess which animals Noah brought into the ark by 7s. We can read it for ourselves in the book of Leviticus.

Once again, God is consistent. God did not give Noah free reign to eat whatever he wanted to and then a few hundred years later restrict the menu for Israel only and then relax the menu again for us in the new testament. What kind of wishy-washy God would that be? God is the same always!!!

I hope that helps....

[phkrause]

Great posts FLO

[FLO]

Great posts FLO

Thanks PK!

[Gail]

[Dr. Rich]

[FLO]

FLO, Ahhhhhh, you just did one of my worst pet peeves--assuming something when you really don't know and can't prove what the truth is.

Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 shows what happens when people teach others things that are only assumed or presummed! Talk about the blind leading the blind!

You're right! I am making some assumptions. Yet, you are as well. My assumptions are at least consistent with the rest of scripture and in line with God's instructions. I'd rather err on the side of caution than go a teach others that it's ok to ignore God's commands.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

- Matthew 5:17-19

[Dr. Rich]

FLO, Yes, I would agree with you but for the difference between the Commandments verses Statutes. Today's show (2-10-12) at www.blogtalkradio.com/sot was all about this issue. If you don't agree with the show hosts, then please tell me why.

Both the OT and NT have Commandments AND Statutes (regulations, codes and rules that are legislative) Can anyone here tell us the difference between the ten commandments (Covenant) and the Statutes for Israel? Or, Statutes for anyone for that matter? Hint:

A Maxim of Law: Statutes are born, live and die. Common Law (Natural law) has always been and will always be. (Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1857)

[Guest]

FLO, Ahhhhhh, you just did one of my worst pet peeves--assuming something when you really don't know and can't prove what the truth is.

Oh, you mean the same thing you do when you try to tell folks that they don't need grace, or faith? Or that the Holy Spirit is really a woman? Or that Adam and Eve were NOT the first humans God created on earth? Or that you CAN know the exact day and hour? Or that Paul and Ellen White were both inspired and led by Satan? ...(I could go on)

Ok then, yeah I see what you mean Rich, about pet peeve.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

FLO, Ahhhhhh, you just did one of my worst pet peeves--assuming something when you really don't know and can't prove what the truth is.

Oh, you mean the same thing you do when you try to tell folks that they don't need grace, or faith? Or that the Holy Spirit is really a woman? Or that Adam and Eve were NOT the first humans God created on earth? Or that you CAN know the exact day and hour? Or that Paul and Ellen White were both inspired and led by Satan? ...(I could go on)

Ok then, yeah I see what you mean Rich, about pet peeve.

1) Show me one place where Jesus says that someone can be saved by grace or faith? You can't--so that is NOT an assumption--it can't be proven--case closed!

2) Rev. 12 proves beyound any doubt that the Woman of Rev. 12 is female--as the church did not give birth to Jesus and it was never in heaven! Case closed!

3) It was MY THEORY ONLY that the earth was made thousands of years earlier than Adam and Eve--as evidence from the Septuagent shows. A theory is just that! I don't care if anyone wants to accept my theory or not, as I NEVER said it was a fact!

4) The first verse of Revelations is proof that the servants of Jesus Christ will know the same thing Jesus was told by His Father! Of course no one who is wicked will understand this (Dan. 12:10)

5) Paul admitted his god gave him a demon in 2Cor. 12:7-9 so who am I to argue with that?

6) Page 433 of the Great Controversey is a vision from EGW that is totally incorrect and proven by all of Revelation 11. Eiter she was or wasn't a true prophet. Furthermore, Rev. 2:18-26 proves beyound any doubt that EGW was the person known as Jezebel who led those who would have been bondservants astray--why? Become they believe Jesus could come at any time, which is utterly nonsense!

As you can see, I have provided evidence for everything I said. When you have evidence--it is not assumption or presumption RLH!

[FLO]

FLO, Yes, I would agree with you but for the difference between the Commandments verses Statutes. Today's show (2-10-12) at www.blogtalkradio.com/sot was all about this issue. If you don't agree with the show hosts, then please tell me why.

Both the OT and NT have Commandments AND Statutes (regulations, codes and rules that are legislative) Can anyone here tell us the difference between the ten commandments (Covenant) and the Statutes for Israel? Or, Statutes for anyone for that matter? Hint:

A Maxim of Law: Statutes are born, live and die. Common Law (Natural law) has always been and will always be. (Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1857)

I'm not a scholar on the different categories of law, but I've done some research on the ceremonial law and from that research I was able to find some insight on the categories of law in the Bible.

The first thing we need to realize is that the term "law" as understood in Judaism and as referred to in the Hebrew Scriptures is not used in the narrow sense as most Adventist use it. Most Adventist understand the term "law" primarily as a reference to the Ten Commandments. Not so in Judaism or in the Bible. The word "Law" in the OT (Strong #8451) is "Torah" and it means "teaching" or "instruction".

"One law <8451> shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." (Exd 12:49)

"And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law <8451> may be in thy mouth..." (Exd 13:9)

"But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD,

I will put my law <8451> in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer 31:33)

When the old testament refers to "law", it's not just talking about the 10 commandments, but the entire Torah as a whole.

The second thing we need to realize is that the term "Ten Commandments" is really a misnomer. In every place in the

Hebrew Scriptures in which the term "Ten Commandments" appears (Ex 34:28, De 4:13 and De 10:4) the Hebrew word

from which the word commandments is translated is "dabar" which literally means "word" or "words". So that instead of

being translated the "Ten Commandments" (eser dabar) literally translated should be the "Ten Words". This is the common

reference of the sages of Judiasm to the Decalogue. This is where we get the Latin term for the Ten Commandments "Decalogue".

"Deca" is the Latin prefix for "Ten" and "logue" the Latin suffix for "Word", thus we have Decalogue or "Ten Words."

The third thing we need to realize is we need proper understanding of the Biblical or Judaic categories of the law (Torah) as "commandments, statutes and judgments" or "mitzvot, chuqim and mishpatim" in Hebrew. The Hebrew word for "commandments" (mitzvot) does not refer to the "Ten Commandments" (i.e. the Ten Words).

"And this is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel: These are the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which Moses spake unto the children of Israel, after they came forth out of Egypt" Deuteronomy 4:44-45

"Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you..." Deuteronomy 6:1

The commandments/laws referred to as "mishpatim" are the moral, ethical commandments called "judgments."

These laws require no explanation or justification - the need for laws against murder, rape, robbery, etc. is self-evident to anyone with good "judgment."

This is not the case with the other two categories: "commandments" (mitzvot) or "statutes" (chukim).

But both Jews and Christians stumble over the chukim. Aryeh Kaplan, a Jewish writer, admits that even for Jews, the chukim are "the most difficult to keep."

Kaplan gives a good explanation of why this is so: "If we do not understand the reason for something, it is tempting to find excuses not to do it. When we try to explain our religion to non-Jews, the laws that do not have an obvious reason are the most difficult to justify. If a person is unsure of himself or is wavering in his Judaism, these laws will be the first to be abandoned." - Aryeh Kaplan, Waters of Eden (New York: National Conference of Synagogue Youth/Orthodox Union, 1982), 8.

How often have we heard people respond to the statues (chukim) with remarks like "Why would God care about this?" or "Why doesn't He want us to do that?" or "This doesn't seem important to me. Surely the Lord doesn't care about it!" Christians often dismiss the chukim by saying, "Only the moral laws are important now. Now that we have the Holy Spirit, we don't need to do those other things anymore." Ironically, the Bible says that one reason for the giving of the Holy Spirit

is to enable God's people to keep the "chukim" (statutes) as well as the "mishpatim" (judgments).

"And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes (chukim), and you shall keep My judgments (mishpatim), and do them" (Ezk.36:27).

"And I will put a new spirit within them...that they may walk in My statutes (chukim) and keep My ordinances (mishpatim), and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God" (Ezk. 11:19).

“From the light which God has given me it would be for our advantage to study the directions given to Israel. (Read Malachi 4.) Verse 4 especially has a meaning which all have not comprehended. Let it be carefully considered.” {PH087 8.2}

– E. G. White: Pamphlets - PH087 - Special Testimony to Battle Creek Church (1897)

"Remember ye the law <8451> (Torah) of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes (chukim) and judgments (mishpatim)." (Malachi 4:4 KJV)

"The closing words of Malachi are a prophecy regarding the work that should be done preparatory to the first and the second advent of Christ. This prophecy is introduced with the admonition, "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments." {SW, March 21, 1905 par. 1} – E. G. White: PERIODICALS / SW – The Southern Watchman - March 21, 1905

Here are some passages of the Bible that speak about the "statues":

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." - Genesis 26:5

"When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws." - Exodus 18:16

"And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight,

and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee,

which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee." - Exodus 15:26

"It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood." - Leviticus 3:17

"Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation,

lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy

and unholy, and between unclean and clean; And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which

the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses." - Leviticus 10:9

Respect of persons - this is an old testament statute that is repeated in the New testament:

"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." - James 2:9

"Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour." - Leviticus 19:15

"Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt." - Ex. 22: 21

And I love this next verse...

"And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that

I am the LORD that sanctify them." - Ezekiel 20:11–12

Here are some more quotes from Ellen White regarding the "statutes":

“Precepts Given to Guard Decalogue.—“In consequence of continual transgression, the moral law was repeated in awful grandeur from Sinai. Christ gave to Moses religious precepts which were to govern everyday life. These statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten commandments. They were not shadowy types to pass away with the death of Christ. They were to be binding upon men in every age as long as time should last. These commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that law"

(The Law of God, by Mrs. E. G. White. May 6, 1875 Review and Herald). {1BC 1104.6}

“The statutes and judgments specifying the duty of man to his fellow-men, were full of important instruction, defining and simplifying the principles of the moral law, for the purpose of increasing religious knowledge, and of preserving God's chosen people distinct and separate from idolatrous nations.”

(The Law of God, by Mrs. E. G. White. May 6, 1875 Review and Herald). {RH, May 6, 1875 par. 5}

--------------------------------

Those are my thoughts....

[Dr. Rich]

Flo, don't make this issue to hard to understand. I's really a simple thing as the common law is what God is all about. It had no beginning and has no end while statutes, codes, rules, regulations and the torah did have a beginning, life and death.

[FLO]

Flo, don't make this issue to hard to understand. I's really a simple thing as the common law is what God is all about. It had no beginning and has no end while statutes, codes, rules, regulations and the torah did have a beginning, life and death.

So, who decides what laws in the Torah are considered common law and which ones are not?

For example Leviticus 18:23 "Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it."

Is this common law or not?

[phkrause]

So, who decides what laws in the Torah are considered common law and which ones are not?

For example Leviticus 18:23 "Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it."

Is this common law or not?

Good point FLO. For me I see most of the rules that God gave the Israelites in Leviticus, for our benefit. How to treat each other and for sanitary concerns, etc. Its the rules and laws that the Jews themselves made that are really not binding. The laws that were done away with at the Cross, were the ones that pointed to the Messiah and his crucifixion that are not needed anymore. All the sanctuary rules and regulation's etc. He didn't get rid of the 10 commandments, and those rules that have to do with cleanliness, etc. He also didn't do away with what we can and can't eat. Those are still good for us today. If I'm guessing this is what your getting at Flo? If not sorry.

[Gerr]

Here's a text that has me thinking lately.

NIV84 | &#8206;Eze 22:26 Her priests °do violence to my law and °profane my holy things°; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common°; they °teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean°; and they °shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: FLO

So, who decides what laws in the Torah are considered common law and which ones are not?

For example Leviticus 18:23 "Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it."

Is this common law or not?

Good point FLO. For me I see most of the rules that God gave the Israelites in Leviticus, for our benefit. How to treat each other and for sanitary concerns, etc. Its the rules and laws that the Jews themselves made that are really not binding. The laws that were done away with at the Cross, were the ones that pointed to the Messiah and his crucifixion that are not needed anymore. All the sanctuary rules and regulation's etc. He didn't get rid of the 10 commandments, and those rules that have to do with cleanliness, etc. He also didn't do away with what we can and can't eat. Those are still good for us today. If I'm guessing this is what your getting at Flo? If not sorry.

Yes PK, I would have to agree with you on this but for what Jesus said about what goes into ones mouth does not defile them. That is a real kicker! Truth is, (for me) I try to avoid anything that God would or could find something wrong with. And of course, living near Loma Linda makes it easy and simple to eat clean good food and at my age that's a must! But then I don't 'lord' it over anyone either!

[Stan]

Turns out Pigeons are clean, and taste like chicken, I however will NEVER prove that.

[Stan]

I have never caught on to the thought that Jesus came and died so we could begin eating the scavengers and garbage collectors he created to be the scavengers and garbage collectors.

Just sayin'

[olger]

Stan be soundin GOOD.

Pass the salad.

[Guest]

Stan be soundin REAL GOOD. I've never heard it put that way, but I like it.

[phkrause]

I have never caught on to the thought that Jesus came and died so we could begin eating the scavengers and garbage collectors he created to be the scavengers and garbage collectors.

Just sayin'

we have to remember also that that was not his intended plan to have animals for us to eat. If not for sin or the flood animals would never have been on the table (pun intended). And as a famous C/A member likes to say: hahaha hehehe hohoho